[paradoxical3]

Originally Posted by Ummm2

But it doesn't weigh less. See its AWD competitors with 4 and 5 doors. I referenced the RS3 weight above, it's actually lighter. I believe it even weighs more than M3 competitors like the Alfa Guilia. It's heavy, BMWs are heavy compared to their completion nowadays. I think it even weighs more than a new A4. Pick your car, if I'm bored later ill draft a list of cars it actually weighs more than. It will be surprising.

The real question when buying an M2 is, are you buying a sports car or a muscle car disguised as a sports car? M2, M3/M4 all muscle cars at this point in my opinion. Not purist sports cars.

M2 is still the all around best option of all the competitors though IMO so I'm not sure what my point is.

You are being hyperbolic. The RS3 curb weight is the european curb weight; we do not know the US curb weight yet. European M2 is 100lbs lighter as well thanks to the US bullshit we have to deal with.

US specs:

Audi A4 curb weight: 3,583lbs in 6mt, 3,693 for tiptronic
Mercedes A45 AMG Curb Weight 3,450lbs base
Audi S3: 3,462lbs

They are all right around the same weight. None of these cars are "sports cars." They are luxury sports coupes with great driving dynamics. If you want a sports car, get a miata, a C6 Corvette, a Lotus, or an Ariel Atom.

[M2 CSL]

Originally Posted by paradoxical3

You are being hyperbolic. The RS3 curb weight is the european curb weight; we do not know the US curb weight yet. European M2 is 100lbs lighter as well thanks to the US bullshit we have to deal with.

US specs:

Audi A4 curb weight: 3,583lbs in 6mt, 3,693 for tiptronic
Mercedes A45 AMG Curb Weight 3,450lbs base
Audi S3: 3,462lbs

They are all right around the same weight. None of these cars are "sports cars." They are luxury sports coupes with great driving dynamics. If you want a sports car, get a miata, a C6 Corvette, a Lotus, or an Ariel Atom.

Ok, I will be less hyperbolic. All US Spec:

2017 US Spec A4- 3,483lbs with DCT
https://www.audiusa.com/models/audi-a4

2016 S3- 3,462lbs

2016 Mercedes A45 AMG Curb Weight 3,450lbs

Alfa Guilia- 3,360lbs

Can we say that these cars all weigh roughly the same? All are generally larger, with 4 doors and 3/4 have AWD. All these things add weight. Both the Audis aren't in the same performance class of car and should be fatter, frankly.

The BMW should be materially lighter than all of these cars based on its size, drivetrain, and positioning in the market. Maybe not the Alfa because it's probably going to be $15-20K higher.

Maybe somewhere between a Cayman weight and the A45 AMG weight would be a sweet spot for a car like this. 3,200lbs or so.

[oldmanstyle]

Originally Posted by Ummm2

Do you have a reference on the 718 being slightly heavier than the 981? I'm not necessarily doubting you, I just don't see where the weight gain would come from if they are downsizing the motor and effectively keeping the rest unchanged?

I've seen that too and wondered about it.

Originally Posted by paradoxical3

You are being hyperbolic. The RS3 curb weight is the european curb weight; we do not know the US curb weight yet. European M2 is 100lbs lighter as well thanks to the US bullshit we have to deal with.

The RS3 also has AWD and DCT standard, so it's not so hyperbolic really. That's probably 200 lbs of hardware between those two items compared to a RWD 6MT M2. And tack another 50 lbs onto the M2 for DCT weight if you want apples to apples.

[RoninX]

Originally Posted by Ummm2

Ok, I will be less hyperbolic. All US Spec:

2017 US Spec A4- 3,483lbs with DCT
https://www.audiusa.com/models/audi-a4

2016 S3- 3,462lbs

2016 Mercedes A45 AMG Curb Weight 3,450lbs

Alfa Guilia- 3,360lbs

Can we say that these cars all weigh roughly the same? All are generally larger, with 4 doors and 3/4 have AWD. All these things add weight. Both the Audis aren't in the same performance class of car and should be fatter, frankly.

The BMW should be materially lighter than all of these cars based on its size, drivetrain, and positioning in the market. Maybe not the Alfa because it's probably going to be $15-20K higher.

Maybe somewhere between a Cayman weight and the A45 AMG weight would be a sweet spot for a car like this. 3,200lbs or so.

There are always tradeoffs. Ideally, I'd like to get a new car that's lighter than an M2, smaller than a C7, faster than a base 981, and with a better sounding engine than the 718. So, the Cayman GT4 would be perfect, but good luck finding one of those for under $60K.

[M3 Adjuster]

[QUOTE=Ummm2]

Originally Posted by paradoxical3

You are being hyperbolic. The RS3 curb weight is the european curb weight; we do not know the US curb weight yet. European M2 is 100lbs lighter as well thanks to the US bullshit we have to deal with.

US specs:

Audi A4 curb weight: 3,583lbs in 6mt, 3,693 for tiptronic
Mercedes A45 AMG Curb Weight 3,450lbs base
Audi S3: 3,462lbs

They are all right around the same weight. None of these cars are "sports cars." They are luxury sports coupes with great driving dynamics. If you want a sports car, get a miata, a C6 Corvette, a Lotus, or an Ariel Atom.

Ok, I will be less hyperbolic. All US Spec:

2017 US Spec A4- 3,483lbs with DCT
https://www.audiusa.com/models/audi-a4

2016 S3- 3,462lbs

2016 Mercedes A45 AMG Curb Weight 3,450lbs

Alfa Guilia- 3,360lbs

Can we say that these cars all weigh roughly the same? All are generally larger, with 4 doors and 3/4 have AWD. All these things add weight. Both the Audis aren't in the same performance class of car and should be fatter, frankly.

The BMW should be materially lighter than all of these cars based on its size, drivetrain, and positioning in the market. Maybe not the Alfa because it's probably going to be $15-20K higher.

Maybe somewhere between a Cayman weight and the A45 AMG weight would be a sweet spot for a car like this. 3,200lbs or so.[/QUOTE




Totally agree.

The reason I've been concerned about the M2 weight from the beginning is because I felt from the beginning that to improve upon the 1M, it would need to weigh less ! The 1M is still relatively heavy itself! I always felt it should have been under 3200 lbs. as it is my 1M is 400 lbs more than the E30 M3. Now we find that an M2 is 600 lbs more

Over the last decade or so, BMW has been great about throwing a lot of motor in to overcome the weight and clearly they have done their magic with a fairly extensive tweaking of the N55.

[paradoxical3]

I would certainly love the M2 to be lighter (and plan on dropping 100+lbs off it), but the fact is that there are no premium luxury sports coupes in the 3200lb range on the market with even close to this kind of power (within $20,000 price). People are forgetting that those other cars use very small and light 4 cylinders, some mounted in transverse orientation which brings huge weight savings at the expense of chassis dynamics. I would not trade even 300lbs of weight to sacrifice the silky 6 cylinder (which can withstand over 600whp modified), it's proper position within the chassis, and move to a farty, unrefined 4.

Maybe it "should" be lighter, but would you rather drive a CLA45 or RS3? I doubt many would.

[M2 CSL]

Originally Posted by paradoxical3

I would certainly love the M2 to be lighter (and plan on dropping 100+lbs off it), but the fact is that there are no premium luxury sports coupes in the 3200lb range on the market with even close to this kind of power (within $20,000 price). People are forgetting that those other cars use very small and light 4 cylinders, some mounted in transverse orientation which brings huge weight savings at the expense of chassis dynamics. I would not trade even 300lbs of weight to sacrifice the silky 6 cylinder (which can withstand over 600whp modified), it's proper position within the chassis, and move to a farty, unrefined 4.

Maybe it "should" be lighter, but would you rather drive a CLA45 or RS3? I doubt many would.

Let's put the RS3's 5 cyclinder and exhaust in the M2 and call it a day. I'd take that motor any day of the week, and the only reason why I'd even consider it over the M2. Everything else about the M2 s better In my opinion.

[paradoxical3]

Originally Posted by Ummm2

Let's put the RS3's 5 cyclinder and exhaust in the M2 and call it a day. I'd take that motor any day of the week, and the only reason why I'd even consider it over the M2. Everything else about the M2 s better In my opinion.

Yes, I actually forgot the RS uses the 5 cylinder, I was thinking of the 4 in the S3. That 5 cylinder is a killer powerplant.

[Thurman Murch]

Why not focus on power to weight ratio vs engine size/transmission/turbo design/wheels drive/stock boost?

You could determine what is left to extract and which one has the strongest heart or can go on a diet and be the champ.

[paradoxical3]

Originally Posted by Thurman Murch

Why not focus on power to weight ratio vs engine size/transmission/turbo design/wheels drive/stock boost?

You could determine what is left to extract and which one has the strongest heart or can go on a diet and be the champ.

Because power to weight ratio, while nice, doesn't really impact the driving dynamics of the car beyond (beyond perhaps ease of inducing throttle based oversteer on RWD cars).

[RoninX]

Originally Posted by Ummm2

Do you have a reference on the 718 being slightly heavier than the 981? I'm not necessarily doubting you, I just don't see where the weight gain would come from if they are downsizing the motor and effectively keeping the rest unchanged?

I'll admit my 2,600-2,700lb reference came from a random forum post, but that usually meets the credible source criteria around here.

Here are the figures for the 981 Boxster from Edmunds:

2016 981 Boxster: 2888 lbs

2016 981 Boxster S: 2918 lbs.

And here are the figures for the 718 Boxster from Porsche:

2017 718 Boxster: 2944 lbs

2017 718 Boxster S: 2988 lbs

Not a big change, but a slight increase. The turbos probably end up adding more weight than is saved by the smaller displacement.

[OrangeCrush]

Originally Posted by paradoxical3

Because power to weight ratio, while nice, doesn't really impact the driving dynamics of the car beyond (beyond perhaps ease of inducing throttle based oversteer on RWD cars).

The competition's front wheel drive based AWD and crappy weight ratio impacts driving dynamics more than the M2's 20lb weight penalty.

[OrangeCrush]

[QUOTE=M3 Adjuster;19424893]

Originally Posted by Ummm2

Ok, I will be less hyperbolic. All US Spec:

2017 US Spec A4- 3,483lbs with DCT
https://www.audiusa.com/models/audi-a4

2016 S3- 3,462lbs

2016 Mercedes A45 AMG Curb Weight 3,450lbs

Alfa Guilia- 3,360lbs

Can we say that these cars all weigh roughly the same? All are generally larger, with 4 doors and 3/4 have AWD. All these things add weight. Both the Audis aren't in the same performance class of car and should be fatter, frankly.

The BMW should be materially lighter than all of these cars based on its size, drivetrain, and positioning in the market. Maybe not the Alfa because it's probably going to be $15-20K higher.

Maybe somewhere between a Cayman weight and the A45 AMG weight would be a sweet spot for a car like this. 3,200lbs or so.[/QUOTE




Totally agree.

The reason I've been concerned about the M2 weight from the beginning is because I felt from the beginning that to improve upon the 1M, it would need to weigh less ! The 1M is still relatively heavy itself! I always felt it should have been under 3200 lbs. as it is my 1M is 400 lbs more than the E30 M3. Now we find that an M2 is 600 lbs more

Over the last decade or so, BMW has been great about throwing a lot of motor in to overcome the weight and clearly they have done their magic with a fairly extensive tweaking of the N55.

Blame the 235i for the M2's weight...not the M2...

[M3 Adjuster]

[QUOTE=OrangeCrush]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

Blame the 235i for the M2's weight...not the M2...

I do! I absolutely blame BMW for not getting more weight out of the entire 2 series lineup but yes the M235 and M2 especially.

They made great strides with the F80 from the E90 and they didn't even hold the line, they went way backwards from the 135 to the 235.

[noLimits Enterprises]

Originally Posted by OrangeCrush

The competition's front wheel drive based AWD and crappy weight ratio impacts driving dynamics more than the M2's 20lb weight penalty.

Yup

[paradoxical3]

Originally Posted by OrangeCrush

The competition's front wheel drive based AWD and crappy weight ratio impacts driving dynamics more than the M2's 20lb weight penalty.

Um, that's what I was trying to say.

[OrangeCrush]

Originally Posted by paradoxical3

Um, that's what I was trying to say.

I know, I was trying to agree with you!