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      04-23-2017, 01:09 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RACEM4TE View Post
Evo compared M-DCT to the PDK and the ferrari dct in their M3 vs C63 Review. Why would you dump a transmission this good?
because it cannot be scaled up in torque without the costs exponentially rising, and people want the fastest and highest technology.

Yes, lots of us like the manuals, but we're a demographic blip and there just won't be a mass market there.

Lots of people still buy horses and track them, but the mass market of our grandfathers moved on to racing the motor car.
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      04-23-2017, 01:12 PM   #90
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Didn't try any DCT from BMW but I drove a PDK in a Macan S. While the ZF8 in my M135i is superb, the PDK is miles better. If the DCT is close to the PDK, that is definitely a pitty. Will need to get an M before it is too late.

But one thing I don't get is that ynguldyn said Minis will get the DCT in their facelift...
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      04-23-2017, 01:18 PM   #91
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That's because the M division is all about profits now, that's why there is a M badge on everything thing.
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      04-23-2017, 01:21 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speed2th View Post
"Another reason is power. Manual transmissions and dual-clutch autos have difficulty handling extremely torquey engines which, with turbochargers taking over, are becoming more and more common"

Really? so the writer is claiming the automatic transmission is better than manual to handle high power and torque? I always thought it is the manual transmission can handle stress better ?
Maybe he means automatics are better and more reliable for the customers to drive so that we (Bmw)don't have to pay for driver error issues that result in transmission/clutch warranty repairs for Bmws that put out more than 450 hp and high torque. Follow the moneys.

I'll stop buying Bmw when manuals go away. At that point might as well go EV
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      04-23-2017, 01:22 PM   #93
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      04-23-2017, 01:25 PM   #94
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The undeniable fact is that money talks to these folks, and not much else does (brand status is also a key here, though - Porsche is 'building and selling out manual only models' but IIRC in editions of under 500 apiece, and probably double the cost of the base model, so more of a halo factor. They also got away with making engines that have a grenade pin in them, and front bearings made out of potmetal, etc. - proving the value of that branding/loyalty (if Chrysler did it, they'd have been long dead). Personally I like a manual for sport driving, but it isn't essential, and to me a royal PITA in daily driving. But I do kind of like that BMW still makes them, as a sign of being a true drivers car, so I wish you all luck in saving the manuals.

You all need to be writing and calling to let them know how you feel, and including a discussion of how much extra you would be happy to pay - I fear that too much of the energy on these boards is just fandom (nothing wrong w/ it, but it doesn't sell many manuals and tends to be the unproductive 'just do it for us' approach). I don't think I've ever seen a poster on this topic include contact info about who at BMW they are bitching to, so that the rest of us could join in. Not that it will be a magic bullet - that recent R&T article on driving dynamics, where the BMW engineer plays dumb about what 'steering feedback' really means, shows they can easily apply corporate spin to drown out our voices.

And a related, overarching issue where we could all do the field a favor would be getting away from the damned bench-racing numbers wars. The engineers have now surpassed most of the human parameters that were originally motivating the quest for faster cars, but the relentless competition to shave another 0.1 second from a 0-60 time is killing the true drivers car. I would bet that in reality most all of us selected our cars based upon issues of fit and feel, but the industry likes simple, so they chase numbers - no surprise we get more robotic cars, the drag racers were using computers in the 70's that could outgun a human.
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      04-23-2017, 01:29 PM   #95
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Lol, bmw can get fscked and go on selling their boring cars to the Chinese and soccer moms, which is clearly the only market they care about.

Time to get into a 911.
Yup. Might be time to hit up Porsche for me as well. Golf clubs will just have to go in the front seat.

Porsche ED could very well be in my future
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      04-23-2017, 01:32 PM   #96
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I coded in 2TB (Sport Auto Trans) on my POS 320i and I can tell you with the JB4, that little ZF 8 Speed is the best transmission I've owned. It's shifts quite quick for an "entry level" BMW.

With that, after driving a DCT GT-R and M3, I really love the near instant gratification of the DCT gear changes, but I can't knock on the ZF too much for where it stands in the lineup.

I actually sold my previous car due to the transmission, I was making about 500HP on a G8, but the auto trans (6L80E) was the sloppiest thing in the world. With the OEM torque converter it felt so loose, so I'm curious where they want to take the technology with torque converting and making it feel tight and European with quick gear shifting that doesn't feel sloppy.
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      04-23-2017, 01:33 PM   #97
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I'm going to puke
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      04-23-2017, 01:36 PM   #98
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I'm going to puke
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      04-23-2017, 01:37 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speed2th View Post
"Another reason is power. Manual transmissions and dual-clutch autos have difficulty handling extremely torquey engines which, with turbochargers taking over, are becoming more and more common"

Really? so the writer is claiming the automatic transmission is better than manual to handle high power and torque? I always thought it is the manual transmission can handle stress better ?
Dragsters have autos. Not manuals. And if you read more, they looked at American manuals than can handle high horsepower and high torque . Like the ones in the Z06 and Viper. He said that they were heavy and that shift quality was awful. So, basically, they want lightweight manuals that can handle high horsepower and high torque and have great shift qualities. In a sense, they want a cheetah (light weight and fast) to handle very heavy prey (Cape Buffalo, giraffes, rhino, hippo, elephant) and not get hurt or winded. Which is almost impossible and makes no sense whatsoever.
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      04-23-2017, 01:41 PM   #100
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Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the manual gearboxes more durable than the DCT? I recall on both the E9x and F8x M cars that got upgraded turbos/supercharger that the DCT guys needed an upgraded clutch but the 6mt guys were fine on the stock one. I'm confused...how much more tq are new M cars going to get that the current manual box won't be durable enough for?
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      04-23-2017, 01:43 PM   #101
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Porsche here I come.
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      04-23-2017, 01:44 PM   #102
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Corvette uses a Tremec trans. Nothing wrong with those. They used ZF ones in the past too.

http://www.superchevy.com/news/1601-...-transmission/
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      04-23-2017, 01:50 PM   #103
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This is called progress. Cars of today are sadly computers on wheels. So I guess this is how it's going to be from now on. There was s time when people had to crank start their cars !!!
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      04-23-2017, 01:50 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mo@BMWofFairfax View Post
What does their loyal fan base want, exactly? If it's lighter and faster-shifting cars, than, I don't see what the problem is. I've probably said this over 1,000 times on these forums. 95% of BMW clients do not track these cars and would be hard pressed to even notice how fast the transmission is shifting because they're too busy driving in bumper to bumper traffic going to the gym, work or home.

It makes sense. Does it suck? Yup. But the conventional auto has gotten better and better as technology has progressed.
I have nothing against improvements in technology, so replacing a DCT with a more advanced and faster-shifting transmission is a move in the right direction.

What I meant by loyal fan base, are the people who have owned various older m cars and would want a manual and buy one if it was available. I realize that wants do not necessarily translate to sales but that is another topic.

It's just a matter of time before the manual transmission goes away completely, I am just saddened by the fact that it's right around the corner.
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      04-23-2017, 02:09 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xander_g View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mo@BMWofFairfax View Post
What does their loyal fan base want, exactly? If it's lighter and faster-shifting cars, than, I don't see what the problem is. I've probably said this over 1,000 times on these forums. 95% of BMW clients do not track these cars and would be hard pressed to even notice how fast the transmission is shifting because they're too busy driving in bumper to bumper traffic going to the gym, work or home.

It makes sense. Does it suck? Yup. But the conventional auto has gotten better and better as technology has progressed.
I have nothing against improvements in technology, so replacing a DCT with a more advanced and faster-shifting transmission is a move in the right direction.

What I meant by loyal fan base, are the people who have owned various older m cars and would want a manual and buy one if it was available. I realize that wants do not necessarily translate to sales but that is another topic.

It's just a matter of time before the manual transmission goes away completely, I am just saddened by the fact that it's right around the corner.
I promise you 95% of those M owners couldn't tell the difference between a ZF auto and a double clutch if they were not informed of what transmission the car has.
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      04-23-2017, 02:09 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JsL View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by zx10guy View Post
If BMW continues their tradition of half assing DCT implementations, I say good riddence to DCTs. And this is from my own personal experience with the DCT in my 135i as well as others who have echo'd my experience of unacceptable throttle lag and lurching/jumping of the car while having your foot on the brake.

However, I would lament the demise of the manual transmission. Had I had a choice of getting a manual, I would have one now.
Which car company does DCT implementation better? Not trying to be a smart a**, just curious.
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      04-23-2017, 02:14 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mo@BMWofFairfax View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by xander_g View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mo@BMWofFairfax View Post
What does their loyal fan base want, exactly? If it's lighter and faster-shifting cars, than, I don't see what the problem is. I've probably said this over 1,000 times on these forums. 95% of BMW clients do not track these cars and would be hard pressed to even notice how fast the transmission is shifting because they're too busy driving in bumper to bumper traffic going to the gym, work or home.

It makes sense. Does it suck? Yup. But the conventional auto has gotten better and better as technology has progressed.
I have nothing against improvements in technology, so replacing a DCT with a more advanced and faster-shifting transmission is a move in the right direction.

What I meant by loyal fan base, are the people who have owned various older m cars and would want a manual and buy one if it was available. I realize that wants do not necessarily translate to sales but that is another topic.

It's just a matter of time before the manual transmission goes away completely, I am just saddened by the fact that it's right around the corner.
I promise you 95% of those M owners couldn't tell the difference between a ZF auto and a double clutch if they were not informed of what transmission the car has.
Sucks being in the 5% :/
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      04-23-2017, 02:17 PM   #108
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Torque has always been the killer of transmissions. Especially low end grunt torque, DCT guys always had to get their boxes rebuilt or put in Dodson clutches to withstand anything over 550wtq.
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      04-23-2017, 02:18 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BM Creeper View Post
Stop fighting over which is the best between manual and dual-clutch transmissions; both of them might soon be gone.

Quote:
http://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/b...rticleResults8

BMW M-Division: Dual-clutch gearbox dead on water

And the days looked numbered for manual transmission too.


The passenger-car transmission war will ultimately be won by the conventional, torque-converter automatic, according to BMW's M division.

And M's vice-president of sales and marketing, Peter Quintus, has given both the conventional manual and the double-clutch transmission just a handful of years to live.

When questioned by Drive on the subject of transmission technology and how it relates to the BMW version of the double-clutch, the DCT, Quintus' response was a surprising one.

"It's more a question of how long has the DCT got to go," he said. "How long will it last?"

Having already predicted the end of manual transmissions in the next six or seven years, Quintus confirmed that he believed we would all soon be making a return to the torque converter automatic.

"We are now seeing automatic transmissions with nine and even 10 speeds, so there's a lot of technology in modern automatics," he said.
"The DCT once had two advantages: it was light and its shift speeds were higher.

"Now, a lot of that shift-time advantage has disappeared as automatics get better and smarter."

Interestingly, Quintus' view that the conventional manual is also doomed is not based solely on emissions. Instead, it's a case of being able to make a manual gearbox strong enough for the super-torquey new generation of engines. He said about 450 horsepower (335kW) and 600Nm was more or less the limit of manual-gearbox durability. Beyond that, he said, durability couldn't be guaranteed.

So why not just shop somewhere like the USA for a manual transmission that can cope with the output of big, burly V8 engines?
"We looked at US gearboxes. We found they were heavy and the shift quality was awful," he said.

"I'm not even sure the next generation of M3 and M4 models from BMW will have the option of a manual gearbox.
1st BMW doesn't allow transfer of maintained plan to 2nd owner
2nd BMW shortens makntance plan and doesn't cover brakes or windshield wipers
3rd MSD has been mysteriously discontinued

Now they want to make M cars fully automatic? This is like Porsche switching from PDK back to a automatic. Ridiculous. But on the M5 fair it's not a really a race car like the M2/3/4.
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      04-23-2017, 02:20 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mo@BMWofFairfax View Post
I promise you 95% of those M owners couldn't tell the difference between a ZF auto and a double clutch if they were not informed of what transmission the car has.
And unfortunately this is why money talks. Why would BMW care about the 5% bimmerpost car enthusiasts when they can cater to the 95% M buyers who buy M products for the name and status, and by doing so, implementing reduced production costs and thereby increasing margins? Why must BMW spend money to develop a DCT with higher power handling capabilities when 95% of the M drivers don't even know the difference between an automatic or DCT?
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