[ericlr1225]

Originally Posted by -Eidos

Some updates after our four hour dyno session today to dial in fueling:

1) We're flowing way too much fuel. This is a good problem to have, but because we're the first ones to actually tune on this set-up (Upgraded injectors and Stage 3 HPFP) we spent a lot of today chasing fueling variables and soft limiters.

2) The injectors have enough room left for at least 700WHP on full E85 and the HPFP upgrade has a lot more in it as well (At our fairly rich lambda targets).

EDIT: Have to emphasize here that using the EU5 injectors on a EU6 car will not work unless you code for it and have a custom tune that adjusts for it properly. Not doing so will run the risk of running too lean or too rich and your car will not run well or at all.

3) At 44,000 miles on the stock factory clutch (6MT), we got consistent clutch slippage at 570 wheel torque in the mid range, so we had to taper it down for now.

Solution: Spec clutch upgrade incoming??


4) At an ethanol mixture of E76, we had a misfire up top at 630WHP and climbing - decided to stop as we did not have time to install new coils, and plugs.

Short term solution: We lowered the higher rpm torque targets for now.

Long term solution: Will gap down to .019" and replace coil packs with new ones.


5) We did it. We hit the goal of 600WHP on DI at a high ethanol mixture of E76. There's still a ton of more room to play with, but all in all it was a successful day.


Attached are three runs.

The first run is cookiesowns's old M2 (on stock tune + FMIC + M Performance Exhaust) on CA 91 octane gas on a different dyno jet (for comparison purposes - I get that it's not apples to apples).

The second run is the run before we started hitting 570~ wheel torque with clutch slippage.

The final run is where we ended up calling it for the day after hitting 600+WHP for 5+ runs (Kept power targets the same, but was cleaning up fueling).

Next steps:

1) Finalize fuel control
2) Upgrade factory clutch
3) Clean up power/torque curves and push it further. Per my tuner, cookiesowns , car looks healthier than ever so we can push it further for science.

Also, I can't thank cookiesowns enough for the precision and diligence throughout this process and Commanderwiggin 's second set of eyes on the logs. The project is not over yet, but I think we're heading in the right direction.

PS: I think someone half-convinced me to build an N55 capable of redlining at 8K RPM. Unfortunately, the BorgWarner 7670 won't have enough in it to flow past 7K RPM so I'd have to go bigger turbo and incur more lag. 650WHP on the current set-up with a really fast spooling big turbo or an 800+WHP, 8K redlining monster. Decisions decisions.

Digging this post out after doing my research. Very helpful info. I'm located in the LA area, currently running N55+ turbo, DS2, DI only, E40-50 flex tune.
Car is running strong with 530-540whp, peak 23-24psi, but it's having misfire CEL near Redline, above 6.3k rpms. My tuner checked everything and all parameters in logs are looking perfect. plenty more of hpfp angle, the B58 coil system is running strong and the turbo is healthy with 85%-90% wastegate duty cycle.
He played with rail pressure/injector advanced SOI table and gained me a bit more RPMs but we all agree that it's not healthy to overwork stock injectors. They are rated 2900psi and just can't flow enough in the short injection window at high rpm causing misfire code and getting diagnosed to the ignition system often.

I found your build journal very helpful mentioning the injector limit for DI only with Emix cuz most of the data out there are running PI or meth. Upgrading M5 EU5 soon as the tuner suggested. I'm going to see how N55+ turbo can do next. Cheers

[samsamdar]

Originally Posted by ericlr1225

Digging this post out after doing my research. Very helpful info. I'm located in the LA area, currently running N55+ turbo, DS2, DI only, E40-50 flex tune.
Car is running strong with 530-540whp, peak 23-24psi, but it's having misfire CEL near Redline, above 6.3k rpms. My tuner checked everything and all parameters in logs are looking perfect. plenty more of hpfp angle, the B58 coil system is running strong and the turbo is healthy with 85%-90% wastegate duty cycle.
He played with rail pressure/injector advanced SOI table and gained me a bit more RPMs but we all agree that it's not healthy to overwork stock injectors. They are rated 2900psi and just can't flow enough in the short injection window at high rpm causing misfire code and getting diagnosed to the ignition system often.

I found your build journal very helpful mentioning the injector limit for DI only with Emix cuz most of the data out there are running PI or meth. Upgrading M5 EU5 soon as the tuner suggested. I'm going to see how N55+ turbo can do next. Cheers

How's the lag on your N55+? Any dyno runs?

[ericlr1225]

Originally Posted by samsamdar

How's the lag on your N55+? Any dyno runs?

Same as FBO stock Multimap stage2+ E30 by comparing with logs in 3rd gear, sometimes 100rpm sooner tbh. I will Dyno it for sure after EU5s get tuned.

[samsamdar]

Originally Posted by ericlr1225

Same as FBO stock Multimap stage2+ E30 by comparing with logs in 3rd gear, sometimes 100rpm sooner tbh. I will Dyno it for sure after EU5s get tuned.

Damn actually? I'm currently installing a PS2 but might switch to N55+ if I can't live with the lag on it lol

[ericlr1225]

Originally Posted by samsamdar

Damn actually? I'm currently installing a PS2 but might switch to N55+ if I can't live with the lag on it lol

I have a log that the tuner was playing around injection time and fueling for my top-end misfiring issue, he turned down the boost a bit for mi-top range but it's enough to show the spool time.

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=6590...18c420ef7e253b

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=651b...729bf4e4bd14a5
this is stock turbo multimap, same fuel.

If WOT started around 2-2.5k, probably 700rpm to hit the target boost, from 3k usually 500rpm. If you see the engine rpm, It always has slippering during boost. If tyres are not warm enough or road condition is not good enough, the car would slip until 6k.

[samsamdar]

Originally Posted by ericlr1225

I have a log that the tuner was playing around injection time and fueling for my top-end misfiring issue, he turned down the boost a bit for mi-top range but it's enough to show the spool time.

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=6590...18c420ef7e253b

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=651b...729bf4e4bd14a5
this is stock turbo multimap, same fuel.

If WOT started around 2-2.5k, probably 700rpm to hit the target boost, from 3k usually 500rpm. If you see the engine rpm, It always has slippering during boost. If tyres are not warm enough or road condition is not good enough, the car would slip until 6k.

Damn I need to come check your car out next time I'm back in LA lol

[ericlr1225]

Originally Posted by samsamdar

Damn I need to come check your car out next time I'm back in LA lol

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=6592...aabc2958d1fa91

This is how it looks by turning it up a bit. I think eventually my tune will end up like this, boost ramping up after 4k and all the way up to 7k. Keeping boost within 24-25psi range and wastegate at 90%. I dunno what PS2 can do but it's not bad for a $1100 turbo.

[-Eidos]

Originally Posted by ericlr1225

Digging this post out after doing my research. Very helpful info. I'm located in the LA area, currently running N55+ turbo, DS2, DI only, E40-50 flex tune.
Car is running strong with 530-540whp, peak 23-24psi, but it's having misfire CEL near Redline, above 6.3k rpms. My tuner checked everything and all parameters in logs are looking perfect. plenty more of hpfp angle, the B58 coil system is running strong and the turbo is healthy with 85%-90% wastegate duty cycle.
He played with rail pressure/injector advanced SOI table and gained me a bit more RPMs but we all agree that it's not healthy to overwork stock injectors. They are rated 2900psi and just can't flow enough in the short injection window at high rpm causing misfire code and getting diagnosed to the ignition system often.

I found your build journal very helpful mentioning the injector limit for DI only with Emix cuz most of the data out there are running PI or meth. Upgrading M5 EU5 soon as the tuner suggested. I'm going to see how N55+ turbo can do next. Cheers

Very nice.

Please update us with a dyno graph once you sort out the fueling bottlenecks

[samsamdar]

Originally Posted by ericlr1225

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=6592...aabc2958d1fa91

This is how it looks by turning it up a bit. I think eventually my tune will end up like this, boost ramping up after 4k and all the way up to 7k. Keeping boost within 24-25psi range and wastegate at 90%. I dunno what PS2 can do but it's not bad for a $1100 turbo.

Who's your tuner?

[ericlr1225]

Originally Posted by samsamdar

Who's your tuner?

Keahi. He and David Shoup, Wedge Tuning are in N55+ R&D group help developing. Basically all N55+/F55 Frenken turbo customers chose one of the three.

[ericlr1225]

Revision #17 for Flexfuel map, E52 in tank, 13.5degree timing at 6500rpm, DS2, stock LPFP, EU5, CTS intake, etc.

[VGSON]

Originally Posted by ericlr1225

Revision #17 for Flexfuel map, E52 in tank, 13.5degree timing at 6500rpm, DS2, stock LPFP, EU5, CTS intake, etc.

Are you still getting the misfire/choke at 6500?

[ericlr1225]

Originally Posted by VGSON

Are you still getting the misfire/choke at 6500?

Nope, it's gone when EU5s in. Tested with the same map on the same day. Me and the tuner were sure it was the EU6 injectors limit causing it.
Posted the reason #133. Our single HPFP can't push injectors as hard as S55 dual HPFP but you still can raise the pressure to compensate for the flow. Plus you need to adjust injection advance timing to open the injection window as much as you can. It's a tricky job. If it's not done correctly, exhaust could shoot much fuel from the exhaust directly and lost power.
I told my tuner I don't wanna mess with those parameters and try to stick with OEM settings.
You can turn on "HPFP angle final(KW)" in your log. 105 is the maximum effort of Dorch stage 2. Mine only hits 86ish maximum running E50. Plenty of room for the pump. It will help you know your HPFP limit and diagnosing things

[VGSON]

Originally Posted by ericlr1225

Nope, it's gone when EU5s in. Tested with the same map on the same day. Me and the tuner were sure it was the EU6 injectors limit causing it.
Posted the reason #133. Our single HPFP can't push injectors as hard as S55 dual HPFP but you still can raise the pressure to compensate for the flow. Plus you need to adjust injection advance timing to open the injection window as much as you can. It's a tricky job. If it's not done correctly, exhaust could shoot much fuel from the exhaust directly and lost power.
I told my tuner I don't wanna mess with those parameters and try to stick with OEM settings.
You can turn on "HPFP angle final(KW)" in your log. 105 is the maximum effort of Dorch stage 2. Mine only hits 86ish maximum running E50. Plenty of room for the pump. It will help you know your HPFP limit and diagnosing things

interesting, your tuner used to tune my car. Couldn’t figure the misfire/hesitation at 6500 for the longest. Switched to full dorche setup. liftkit, injectors etc….Glad the solution was found

[ericlr1225]

Originally Posted by VGSON

interesting, your tuner used to tune my car. Couldn’t figure the misfire/hesitation at 6500 for the longest. Switched to full dorche setup. liftkit, injectors etc….Glad the solution was found

Yeah, the first thing is to make sure plugs/coils are new and setup correctly. I have B58 coils and DS2 already, tried stock gap and 0.024'' as he suggested, and Misfires above 6.3-6.5k still. Then playing around with injection SOI, and raised up hpfp pressure from 2900 to 3300psi, it got better but still randomly happened at the very top or 4th gear very top.(I like to pull until 7.1k. Damn OCD. LOL) Everything else looked perfect. Then he said there was no need to gap down more. Method of exclusion. Also, I did some research on the S55 forum and @Eidos's post confirmed it, those guys pushed the s55 injector by 3600-3900psi on the E85 tune. That's why S55 injectors failed so often, it's way over operation pressure. Bosch engineer also confirmed with Kratos turbo that the s55 injectors failure has nothing to do with E85, just simply mechanic failure. Double confirmed with David Shoup. Now everything is good. BTW, during the whole process, I refused to change anything else except the fueling/Injection table and When EU5s were in, we reset the fueling/injection table back to the original to minimize variances. Same timing/boost/Emix during the whole process.

[VGSON]

first thing i did was b58 conversation and f8s plugs trying to fix it. then came the liftkit, injectors, & lpfp..Now running straight pump ethanol and looking forward to 25+psi

[ericlr1225]

Originally Posted by VGSON

first thing i did was b58 conversation and f8s plugs trying to fix it. then came the liftkit, injectors, & lpfp..Now running straight pump ethanol and looking forward to 25+psi

Yeah, I hate to change things randomly. Shooting darts in the dark. Misfire happened when boost was turned above 23-24psi with my small turbo. Below that, free revving all day. Since you’re pure750 and DI only setup, you need all those anyway. Not bad. 😄

[M2guru]

I appreciate your discussion on the forum here - you guys have helpful experiences to share!

Are you guys experiencing any clutch slippage yet? Wondering the stock clutch will take. When I get the car hot on the road course, I experienced some slipping upon acceleration with Stage 2 on stock turbo non-ethanol. Some extra heat is being generated by my imperfect heal-toe shifting, so I have that working against me.

Thanks!

[VGSON]

no slipping yet, but im not doing constant pulls on a road track

[ericlr1225]

Originally Posted by M2guru

I appreciate your discussion on the forum here - you guys have helpful experiences to share!

Are you guys experiencing any clutch slippage yet? Wondering the stock clutch will take. When I get the car hot on the road course, I experienced some slipping upon acceleration with Stage 2 on stock turbo non-ethanol. Some extra heat is being generated by my imperfect heal-toe shifting, so I have that working against me.

Thanks!

Generating heat is normal, especially in winter(A/C off). I have chassis mounted shifter, which means more heat thru my metal knob and in cabin. It’s normal if you keep doing pulls or driving aggressively. Every car is different, mine still holding well around 500-550wtq. I know it’s gonna die eventually, just matter of when.