[TropicalM]

Nicely done BMW. We can say all we want, MT X DCT, not enough long straights, etc. The M2 can keep up with 150 hp difference. Just imagine all equal (including tires size) and a GT 350 limited to 370HP, the M2 would annihilate the GT350.

[JamesGames]

Originally Posted by M3 Number 86

For reference, my friend, the owner of the M2 who graciously let me take it out did a 1:54:8x at buttonwillow that same day in >100F so it's a pretty capable car overall. His car is equipped with JRZ, Akrapovic, BBS FI on pirelli scrubs and upgraded Alcon rotors. So I would say better suited for the track than stock for sure. I've done a 1:54.7x in my car at the same track.

I've never understood what people meant by numb steering until I drove the Fxx cars (M2/M4). The shifter felt misplaced and was very spongy. My other complaints could apply to turbo cars in general. The throttle control and power delivery were a bit strange. On upshifts there was a weird sensation of either boost cut or something done electronically to maybe deliver torque linearly? Does that make sense? I can't really explain it other than the fact that it wasn't, full power on full throttle. It didn't feel natural. It shouldn't feel different on upshifts at redline whether it's a turbo or not, right? There was some power dampening going on of some sorts. It was at this point I realized this car is probably better suited with DCT, which I've driven at Thermal (lucky for me it was pouring that day so there was all kinds of slides and yelling at my ear through the walkie talkie ). I was surprised that a DCT car would feel better than a manual car, not in terms of speed and ease of driving, but for the feeeeelz.

Handling, speed, and braking power is awesome. Overall a very very capable car. I just didn't like the feels - gimmicky power delivery, mushy shifter, mushy throttle, etc for me as the driver.

I guess you really can't stop the modernization of cars whether we like it or not. Even my e90 felt more connected even though it definitely not known to be a "connected to the driver" car already. It has to be capable as well as comfortable for those who aren't ever going to push it to the limits so there's nothing we could do there really.

I also drove the M4 that day and the power delivery was a bit better, felt natural, etc. But the pedal just seemed so mushy (not the pedal itself but the reaction of the car). I turned in for a 90 degree turn and it did a uturn on me! LOL. Far better turn in than e90 but again, it was just the feels I didn't like.

I also drove a Z4MC and dang, that thing felt so good. I guess I'm getting old?

Thanks for the feedback, and regarding the upshift falling on its ass, yea, you're not the only one that feels that. Torque management or whatever they call it to disrupt the full power delivery for the 6MT cars. I can't explain when it occurs and when it doesn't, but sometimes on a WOT run upshifts have a half second moment where the pedal doesn't translate to a wide open throttle and then suddenly it comes back. I just don't understand when it comes in and when it doesn't, because sometimes I can blast through each gear and break traction shifting up to 3rd easily, other times in-between the upshifts I get the hesitation. My biggest gripe about the 6MT - other than that I actually love the feel of the gear box more so than any other manual transmission I've tried.

[M3 Number 86]

Originally Posted by JamesGames

Thanks for the feedback, and regarding the upshift falling on its ass, yea, you're not the only one that feels that. Torque management or whatever they call it to disrupt the full power delivery for the 6MT cars. I can't explain when it occurs and when it doesn't, but sometimes on a WOT run upshifts have a half second moment where the pedal doesn't translate to a wide open throttle and then suddenly it comes back. I just don't understand when it comes in and when it doesn't, because sometimes I can blast through each gear and break traction shifting up to 3rd easily, other times in-between the upshifts I get the hesitation. My biggest gripe about the 6MT - other than that I actually love the feel of the gear box more so than any other manual transmission I've tried.

Glad I wasn't going crazy and that it actually felt that way. The shifter placement I prob just need to get used to. It sticks up quite a bit more than mine so I would reach down and hit it with either my forearm first or below the top of the knob.

My only reasoning I can think of for the power delivery is bmw looking at mustang drivers and thinking we cannot let our cars crash into people at car meets

[shivaswrath]

Im no M2 and at lime Rock managed to pass the Mustang too. Both me and driver were in intermediate class for HPDE....This is no surprise.

[bradleyland]

Really like this presenter. The language he uses to describe how the cars drive is great. Too often in reviews, you don't get a good description of the chassis and how it reacts. Too much focus on numbers.

It sounds like the M2 is probably the more rewarding car to drive, but the GT350 offers an overall experience that is hard to pass up. It comes down to an individual's preferences, but I appreciate someone else's preference when they can explain how they reached their conclusion. Respect

[vladberca]

Old school NA V8.
You can't sell this car in Europe due to big taxes for engines with CC larger than 3000.
On the other hand I'm just thinking how good the M2 CS will be

[raysspl]

Originally Posted by M3 Number 86

For reference, my friend, the owner of the M2 who graciously let me take it out did a 1:54:8x at buttonwillow that same day in >100F so it's a pretty capable car overall. His car is equipped with JRZ, Akrapovic, BBS FI on pirelli scrubs and upgraded Alcon rotors. So I would say better suited for the track than stock for sure. I've done a 1:54.7x in my car at the same track.

I've never understood what people meant by numb steering until I drove the Fxx cars (M2/M4). The shifter felt misplaced and was very spongy. My other complaints could apply to turbo cars in general. The throttle control and power delivery were a bit strange. On upshifts there was a weird sensation of either boost cut or something done electronically to maybe deliver torque linearly? Does that make sense? I can't really explain it other than the fact that it wasn't, full power on full throttle. It didn't feel natural. It shouldn't feel different on upshifts at redline whether it's a turbo or not, right? There was some power dampening going on of some sorts. It was at this point I realized this car is probably better suited with DCT, which I've driven at Thermal (lucky for me it was pouring that day so there was all kinds of slides and yelling at my ear through the walkie talkie ). I was surprised that a DCT car would feel better than a manual car, not in terms of speed and ease of driving, but for the feeeeelz.

Handling, speed, and braking power is awesome. Overall a very very capable car. I just didn't like the feels - gimmicky power delivery, mushy shifter, mushy throttle, etc for me as the driver.

I guess you really can't stop the modernization of cars whether we like it or not. Even my e90 felt more connected even though it definitely not known to be a "connected to the driver" car already. It has to be capable as well as comfortable for those who aren't ever going to push it to the limits so there's nothing we could do there really.

I also drove the M4 that day and the power delivery was a bit better, felt natural, etc. But the pedal just seemed so mushy (not the pedal itself but the reaction of the car). I turned in for a 90 degree turn and it did a uturn on me! LOL. Far better turn in than e90 but again, it was just the feels I didn't like.

I also drove a Z4MC and dang, that thing felt so good. I guess I'm getting old?

Soooooo when are you getting the Porsche

[3Si]

Originally Posted by bruin1md

Why on earth won't they do these comparisons as true apples to apples and have both cars equipped with a 6MT?
Drives me nuts when I see one car with a DCT and the other with a 6MT being compared on the track.

I'm the owner of the M2, just easy access really. Our videos are really just for personal enjoyment. If you add in the cost of equipment and other expenses, we are losing money. Most of the videos our group has done so far were with cars that we actually own. (Exige, 4C, RS, Golf R...) Unfortunately, we do not have access to any press cars nor do we have sponsors to cover disposable costs.

As for as the DCT vs 6MT argument, I agree as we all know DCT will always have the advantage over a traditional 6MT. But for whatever it's worth, on this short track, it's not going to make that much of a difference for the GT350. You can basically drive the entire track comfortably in 3rd. During the hot laps, with the exception of corner 6, most of the lap was done in 3rd with not a lot of shifting. I'm going to guess if the GT350 had some sort of a DCT, it would gain 2 tenths at most in a very short track. It was definitely not the transmission that costed the GT350 the win. I love the GT350 and would pick it over my M2 as a track toy, but its weight is a problem at a slow track like TMP.

[3Si]

Originally Posted by akkando

He said he rather have Civic R than either

Funny that you mentioned the Type R, that's our next comparison. Type R vs Still vs Focus RS.

[3Si]

Originally Posted by M3 Number 86

I stopped watching as soon as he said I'm not turning traction control off all the way. How can you analyze a car when you don't have total control?

I recently drove a manual M2 at buttonwillow. The only great thing was how well it could turn in. Everything else felt like literally nothing. I've really wanted one but after driving it on track, it completely fell off the list. lol

The presenter Thomas had Sport+ Mode on in the beginning, but turned it off towards the end. The hot lap driver Colin had it all off from the start. And from personal experience, unless you are intentionally inducing over steer, Sport+ gives you enough freedom to set a solid lap time for the M2.

[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by vladberca

Old school NA V8.
You can't sell this car in Europe due to big taxes for engines with CC larger than 3000.
On the other hand I'm just thinking how good the M2 CS will be

As long as it doesn't duck fart like the M4 does it should be wonderful.

[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by 3Si

Funny that you mentioned the Type R, that's our next comparison. Type R vs Still vs Focus RS.

There's nothing like rear wheel drive dynamics.

And the look of that Type-R is outlandish.

[M3 Number 86]

Originally Posted by 3Si

The presenter Thomas had Sport+ Mode on in the beginning, but turned it off towards the end. The hot lap driver Colin had it all off from the start. And from personal experience, unless you are intentionally inducing over steer, Sport+ gives you enough freedom to set a solid lap time for the M2.

not really because it cuts power at that precise moment of slip and regrip.

[stefan]

Originally Posted by M3 Number 86

For reference, my friend, the owner of the M2 who graciously let me take it out did a 1:54:8x at buttonwillow that same day in >100F so it's a pretty capable car overall. His car is equipped with JRZ, Akrapovic, BBS FI on pirelli scrubs and upgraded Alcon rotors. So I would say better suited for the track than stock for sure. I've done a 1:54.7x in my car at the same track.

I've never understood what people meant by numb steering until I drove the Fxx cars (M2/M4). The shifter felt misplaced and was very spongy. My other complaints could apply to turbo cars in general. The throttle control and power delivery were a bit strange. On upshifts there was a weird sensation of either boost cut or something done electronically to maybe deliver torque linearly? Does that make sense? I can't really explain it other than the fact that it wasn't, full power on full throttle. It didn't feel natural. It shouldn't feel different on upshifts at redline whether it's a turbo or not, right? There was some power dampening going on of some sorts. It was at this point I realized this car is probably better suited with DCT, which I've driven at Thermal (lucky for me it was pouring that day so there was all kinds of slides and yelling at my ear through the walkie talkie ). I was surprised that a DCT car would feel better than a manual car, not in terms of speed and ease of driving, but for the feeeeelz.

Handling, speed, and braking power is awesome. Overall a very very capable car. I just didn't like the feels - gimmicky power delivery, mushy shifter, mushy throttle, etc for me as the driver.

I guess you really can't stop the modernization of cars whether we like it or not. Even my e90 felt more connected even though it definitely not known to be a "connected to the driver" car already. It has to be capable as well as comfortable for those who aren't ever going to push it to the limits so there's nothing we could do there really.

I also drove the M4 that day and the power delivery was a bit better, felt natural, etc. But the pedal just seemed so mushy (not the pedal itself but the reaction of the car). I turned in for a 90 degree turn and it did a uturn on me! LOL. Far better turn in than e90 but again, it was just the feels I didn't like.

I also drove a Z4MC and dang, that thing felt so good. I guess I'm getting old?

Feel the same about the power delivery but I had this issue on the M4. Felt like a poorly tuned 335. I wonder if fmic and tune would solve.

[bruin1md]

Originally Posted by 3Si

I'm the owner of the M2, just easy access really. Our videos are really just for personal enjoyment. If you add in the cost of equipment and other expenses, we are losing money. Most of the videos our group has done so far were with cars that we actually own. (Exige, 4C, RS, Golf R...) Unfortunately, we do not have access to any press cars nor do we have sponsors to cover disposable costs.

As for as the DCT vs 6MT argument, I agree as we all know DCT will always have the advantage over a traditional 6MT. But for whatever it's worth, on this short track, it's not going to make that much of a difference for the GT350. You can basically drive the entire track comfortably in 3rd. During the hot laps, with the exception of corner 6, most of the lap was done in 3rd with not a lot of shifting. I'm going to guess if the GT350 had some sort of a DCT, it would gain 2 tenths at most in a very short track. It was definitely not the transmission that costed the GT350 the win. I love the GT350 and would pick it over my M2 as a track toy, but its weight is a problem at a slow track like TMP.

Thanks for weighing in. The sheer giddiness on your face while driving the Shelby reminded me how I felt when I got my hands on my friends'. But that was tame street driving by comparison. I can only imagine what it would feel like on the straightaways of a decent sized track

[Jadar]

I love both cars and what they stand for in today's offerings. A very cool and surprising result as the M2 did better around the track. I'd own either car but the GT350 that fit n finish thooooo. Door to fender looks real crisp Yikes!

[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by JamesGames

Thanks for the feedback, and regarding the upshift falling on its ass, yea, you're not the only one that feels that. Torque management or whatever they call it to disrupt the full power delivery for the 6MT cars. I can't explain when it occurs and when it doesn't, but sometimes on a WOT run upshifts have a half second moment where the pedal doesn't translate to a wide open throttle and then suddenly it comes back. I just don't understand when it comes in and when it doesn't, because sometimes I can blast through each gear and break traction shifting up to 3rd easily, other times in-between the upshifts I get the hesitation. My biggest gripe about the 6MT - other than that I actually love the feel of the gear box more so than any other manual transmission I've tried.

That is because the 6 Speed MT cannot hold on to boost like the DCT can.

[3Si]

Originally Posted by bruin1md

Thanks for weighing in. The sheer giddiness on your face while driving the Shelby reminded me how I felt when I got my hands on my friends'. But that was tame street driving by comparison. I can only imagine what it would feel like on the straightaways of a decent sized track

Even though I had the same smile in the GT350, I was not the host of the show. You may see me here and there in the background.

[JamesGames]

Originally Posted by ORIGIN M.

That is because the 6 Speed MT cannot hold on to boost like the DCT can.

No that's not why. This is a cut off from the DME, literally you cannot accelerate at all, google torque management in-between shifts. For example, if I lift off in gear and get back on it, no lag / power cut off. In-between the shifts, theres a pause, a split second at most. That's torque management, you can read more about it in this thread..
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1162951

As far as holding boost in-between shifts, that's what the anti-lag / over run does, albeit obviously DCT no-lift-shifts hold boost better, that isn't up for debate.

[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by JamesGames

No that's not why. This is a cut off from the DME, literally you cannot accelerate at all, google torque management in-between shifts. For example, if I lift off in gear and get back on it, no lag / power cut off. In-between the shifts, theres a pause, a split second at most. That's torque management, you can read more about it in this thread..
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1162951

As far as holding boost in-between shifts, that's what the anti-lag / over run does, albeit obviously DCT no-lift-shifts hold boost better, that isn't up for debate.

My bad, somehow I forgot this car had DCT even after the watching video. Watching at work lol, clearly I missed the fact it wasn't a stick.

Thanks for detailed post accordingly.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by M3 Number 86

Glad I wasn't going crazy and that it actually felt that way. The shifter placement I prob just need to get used to. It sticks up quite a bit more than mine so I would reach down and hit it with either my forearm first or below the top of the knob.

My only reasoning I can think of for the power delivery is bmw looking at mustang drivers and thinking we cannot let our cars crash into people at car meets

I think you both may be explaining the feeling of overboost...

After 5 seconds at WOT you get overboost... when accelerating the next time for not so long.. it feels like there is no power.

Agree on the F8x cars and the soft controls. Soft clutch.. mushy slick gearbox, steering feel artificial etc.

[Billj747]

Not sure about the on track test. The GT350 is faster than an M4 and isn't an M4 faster around a track than an M2?

How does the M2 compare to an E92 M3? A stock base 2016 Mustang GT is faster than a E90 M3 DCT on the same tires:


http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArticl...ustang-GT.aspx