[chris719]

Originally Posted by edycol

It depends on additives and how they react with base stocks.
I would not put too much attention on thickness as on chemistry when it comes to improvement.

I'm not sure I agree. This is MTF, not motor oil. It's simple physics, the fluid must be mechanically displaced during a shift. It is common knowledge that thinner fluids improve shift quality at the possible expense of wear. We aren't talking about wear, we are talking about shift quality. No additive in the world can change the fact that the fluid must be displaced.

I have run Mazda OEM 75W-80, Redline MT-90, Redline MTL, and Ravenol MTF-2 all in my Mazda 6MT. They all behave exactly as you would expect from the datasheet viscosity values. The MT-90 shifts far worse than the others. Obviously all these fluids contain friction modifiers, but the behavior is dominated by the viscosity.

[edycol]

Not sure. Thicker Redline D4 improved shifting in my BMW.
Additives amd base stock still matter when it comes to slippery, especially in mechanical transmissions not ones with torque converter.
I would say there is limit how thick though. MT90 was known to be thick in cold. But, was loved on track for shift quality.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by edycol

Not sure. Thicker Redline D4 improved shifting in my BMW.
Additives amd base stock still matter when it comes to slippery, especially in mechanical transmissions not ones with torque converter.
I would say there is limit how thick though. MT90 was known to be thick in cold. But, was loved on track for shift quality.

Fair enough, I think it really depends on the transmission and what is the root cause of the issue. I had half MTL and half MT-90 in my Z4M and it made the 2nd gear grind the same or worse so I went back to OEM.

TopJimmy is an F8x owner who used both Redline DCTF and then tried Motul High Torque. I believe he liked both more than OEM but said only the Motul fixed his grinds during drag races. Just anecdote, it doesn’t mean much but that’s what is making me give it a chance.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by edycol

MT90 was known to be thick in cold. But, was loved on track for shift quality.

Another thing to mention is that these gear boxes do not have oil coolers like the E9X 6mt's, because apparantly the dry sump lubrication system was enough to keep the gear box cool enough under extreme use cases.

However after changing my gear oil for the first time, when I touched the transmission casing it was very very hot, and that was also after letting the car sit for maybe 1-2 hours (because I had to get the car onto ramps via jacks, then do an oil change, then remove the transmission cover).


So it is quite possible these gear boxes run very hot and might be putting the fluid in the upper mid - upper maximum portion of their temperature range (especially on track). So a thicker fluid might not be a bad thing, because the high temperature will cause the viscosity to drop alot, which means the thicker fluid will begin to move into a range where it offers optimal shift feel while a thinner fluid begins to get to the point where it is too thin and shear out or doesn't provide enough protection and causes more wear and tear.

[F87source]

Also one more thing chris719 where are you buying your motul high torque dctf from?

I can't find many dealers, are you getting it from motul directly?

[chris719]

Originally Posted by F87source

Also one more thing chris719 where are you buying your motul high torque dctf from?

I can't find many dealers, are you getting it from motul directly?

Yeah I was going to order from ShopMotul.com, whoever runs that.

What is your method for getting the car level, ramps + jack stands?

[F87source]

Originally Posted by chris719

Yeah I was going to order from ShopMotul.com, whoever runs that.

What is your method for getting the car level, ramps + jack stands?

Yeah thats where I would go to as well, I don't like the idea of buying off of Ebat.

I have four identical ramps so its as level as my garage (which is pretty level), let me post a picture:




So here is what I do:
1) Put the car in 1st gear + parking brake.
2) Chock the front wheels
3) Lift the rear onto the ramps first with a jack on either side, why the rear first? Because the rear has parking brakes + the engine/transmission in first gear to keep it from rotating, the front wheels have nothing. So it is safer to have the rear up first because it won't roll off.
4) Jack the front onto the ramps

The ramps will be facing opposite directions so the chocks in the ramp prevents the car from rolling forwards or backs. Then add chocks onto the ramps for extra security.


Then I have 4 bmw x5 scissor jacks (I like scissor jacks because they don't sink like hydrualic jacks, and I have the x5 version because it is heavy duty and has the bmw jack pad adapter built in) that I will put into the jacking points for further security, and I put 2 jack stands under the rear subframe (surprisingly the ramps are the perfect height that my jack stands fit perfectly under and touches the subframe. When I lower the jacks it applies just enough pressure that the jack stands are stuck, but the suspension is bottomed out, so maybe under a hundred pounds on the jackstands but enough that I know itll be there if the ramps for some reason blew out.



So in total I have 4 8,000 lbs rhino ramps capable of holding 32,000lbs total + 2 2 ton jack stands capable of holding 4000 lbs + 4 bmw x5 scissor jacks each capable of holding 2640 lbs each (so 10560 lbs total). Thus my setup can hold 46,560 lbs total, in other words I should be pretty safe

The setup also has multiple redundancies and back ups, so if the ramps blow out (which is unlikely because 1 ramp can hold 2 m2's with weight to spare) the scissor jacks are there and the jack stands. It is also so much more stable than jack stands because the point of contact holding the car up is the tires, which is alot more surface area than the tiny little jack pads on a flat circle jack stand (to me that seems sketchy which is why I went with ramps). Then the jack stands add alot more stability as well, it all makes for a super sturdy, safe and level car support.



I'll get some images of the whole setup together this summer.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by chris719

Yeah I was going to order from ShopMotul.com, whoever runs that.

What is your method for getting the car level, ramps + jack stands?

Anyways if you are looking for something to get your car into the air, I highly recommend ramps over jack stands or even a quick jack (although the benefit of this is it is much faster to get the car up, and it has more lifting height) as the ramp solution is significantly more stable and much cheaper.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by F87source

Anyways if you are looking for something to get your car into the air, I highly recommend ramps over jack stands or even a quick jack (although the benefit of this is it is much faster to get the car up, and it has more lifting height) as the ramp solution is significantly more stable and much cheaper.

Nothing beats quick jack

[edycol]

Originally Posted by chris719

Fair enough, I think it really depends on the transmission and what is the root cause of the issue. I had half MTL and half MT-90 in my Z4M and it made the 2nd gear grind the same or worse so I went back to OEM.

TopJimmy is an F8x owner who used both Redline DCTF and then tried Motul High Torque. I believe he liked both more than OEM but said only the Motul fixed his grinds during drag races. Just anecdote, it doesn’t mean much but that’s what is making me give it a chance.

It does depends. E90’s MT love D4 and Motul Multi ATF. Other cars not. There are too many variables. I always say, try it and find what is warm around your heart.

I am in meantime, trying to purge air from brake system, and it is PITA.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by edycol

Nothing beats quick jack

For ground clearance and convienience I agree (I would love to have some more clearance on my own setup). But for safety and stability - I doubt it.

I have tried jack stands before, and it doesn't feel as sturdy as on ramps, mainly because the car is held by a tiny rectangular jack pad on a small metal surface vs. the large contact patch of the tire. I've tried pushing my car hard and it will not budge on ramps with the scissor jack support, so that makes me feel pretty comfortable under the car when I have to torque the stiffening plate bolts which do require a significant amount of torque to yield them.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by edycol

I am in meantime, trying to purge air from brake system, and it is PITA.

Use ISTA to actuate the DSC pump.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by F87source

For ground clearance and convienience I agree (I would love to have some more clearance on my own setup). But for safety and stability - I doubt it.

I have tried jack stands before, and it doesn't feel as sturdy as on ramps, mainly because the car is held by a tiny rectangular jack pad on a small metal surface vs. the large contact patch of the tire. I've tried pushing my car hard and it will not budge on ramps with the scissor jack support, so that makes me feel pretty comfortable under the car when I have to torque the stiffening plate bolts which do require a significant amount of torque to yield them.

I don’t have any issues and had car on Quick Jack for 7 days. One guy had S class for 9 month on it. I do sometimes position jack stands below, just in case.
Today I was trying to purge air out of DSC, and was getting in and out all the time while on Quick Jack, and car feels super stable.
Clereance is the key, to do quickly stuff like this:

[edycol]

Originally Posted by F87source

Use ISTA to actuate the DSC pump.

Used INPA. God damn xDrive doesn’t have all options to actuate DSC as RWD.
Another issue, unlike RWD, it takes soo much fluid that I had to stop procedure as my 1ltr bottle got full from one wheel, and still wasn’t done.
I put Wal Mart DOT4 fluid as in the spring I am putting Brembo so just need something for street. Starting to think whether fluid is creating a bit of softness? Never had fluid issues as I always used ATE.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by edycol

I don’t have any issues and had car on Quick Jack for 7 days. One guy had S class for 9 month on it. I do sometimes position jack stands below, just in case.
Today I was trying to purge air out of DSC, and was getting in and out all the time while on Quick Jack, and car feels super stable.
Clereance is the key, to do quickly stuff like this:

I'm not saying there is an issue with a quick jack, Im just saying everytime I have the car supported by only the jack points it doesn't feel as study. With ramps + my jacks it is literally rock solid to the point where I can push the car full force as if it were on the ground - something I never had the confidence to do on jack stands.

Originally Posted by edycol

Used INPA. God damn xDrive doesn’t have all options to actuate DSC as RWD.
Another issue, unlike RWD, it takes soo much fluid that I had to stop procedure as my 1ltr bottle got full from one wheel, and still wasn’t done.
I put Wal Mart DOT4 fluid as in the spring I am putting Brembo so just need something for street. Starting to think whether fluid is creating a bit of softness? Never had fluid issues as I always used ATE.

Holy moly that is alot of fluid. Maybe try a vaccum bleeder instead of pressure bleeding.

Personally I don't think fluid can cause a soft pedal, fluids are pretty incompresible.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by F87source

Holy moly that is alot of fluid. Maybe try a vaccum bleeder instead of pressure bleeding.

Personally I don't think fluid can cause a soft pedal, fluids are pretty incompresible.

I know, something doesn’t add up.
Had to disconnect rear brake lines as I was replacing rear subframe. In December was doing donuts with my daughter, hit the curb. Curb won!
So, disconnected rear lines. FCP sent me wrong differential bushings as I wanted to upgrade to M3 ones. So, brake lines were disconnected for 3-4 days. I am thinking that air got into DSC.
Only differences from before is that I installed stainless steel lines in mid point and rear wheels as I was there. That is something I was about to do when installing Brembo, but since mid lines are mich easier to install with subframe down, I did it know. My thinking is that lines should not have caused this as it is of opposite of what their purpose is.
I flushed brakes probably 4 times actuating DSC, I flushed once simply by using pressure pump. Got bit better, but still first 1/3 of pedal is soft. Brakes are there when slammed on them.
Ordered ATE to pressure flush, will see.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by edycol

I know, something doesn’t add up.
Had to disconnect rear brake lines as I was replacing rear subframe. In December was doing donuts with my daughter, hit the curb. Curb won!
So, disconnected rear lines. FCP sent me wrong differential bushings as I wanted to upgrade to M3 ones. So, brake lines were disconnected for 3-4 days. I am thinking that air got into DSC.
Only differences from before is that I installed stainless steel lines in mid point and rear wheels as I was there. That is something I was about to do when installing Brembo, but since mid lines are mich easier to install with subframe down, I did it know. My thinking is that lines should not have caused this as it is of opposite of what their purpose is.
I flushed brakes probably 4 times actuating DSC, I flushed once simply by using pressure pump. Got bit better, but still first 1/3 of pedal is soft. Brakes are there when slammed on them.
Ordered ATE to pressure flush, will see.

Interesting, yeah that doesn't sound good at all.

Did you use a pedal depressor tool to hold down the brake pedal when the lines were removed? Generally that is used to prevent air from being able to make it's way back up into the reservoir or lines.

Maybe check your master cylinder to make sure the piston isn't damaged, and probably try to alternate between pressure bleeding and pedal pumping. Also if worse comes to worse you can try to reverse bleed by pumping fluid from the caliper back into the reservoir.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by F87source

Interesting, yeah that doesn't sound good at all.

Did you use a pedal depressor tool to hold down the brake pedal when the lines were removed? Generally that is used to prevent air from being able to make it's way back up into the reservoir or lines.

Maybe check your master cylinder to make sure the piston isn't damaged, and probably try to alternate between pressure bleeding and pedal pumping. Also if worse comes to worse you can try to reverse bleed by pumping fluid from the caliper back into the reservoir.

Will see.
Will try to flush more. If it doesn’t do it, I might just go ahead with Brembo project and slap M3 MC as recommended and see.

[jefe2000]

Originally Posted by chris719

I've seen many people here change to Redline DCTF or Motul Multi DCTF. Most report better shifting, but I am curious if anyone has replaced the factory fill with the OEM fluid and felt a difference?

I swapped the "factory fill" transmission fluid with OEM MTF-LT-5 fluid last weekend. The "factory fill" fluid came out a very dark, nearly black color. The new fluid is a quite-light brown. I didn't retain any old oil for a UOA. I posted some details about the actual drain and fill over in another thread:
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...6#post29808856

For my transmission with 34,600 mi (55,700 km), I'd say the there's a subtle difference with the new fluid. I do think it's more than placebo effect, but only just. I'm so familiar with the transmission feel that I notice a difference. Someone else who might jump in the car without close familiarity with it wouldn't say a thing about it.

Now that I've been driving the car for a week on the new fluid, the differences I notice are:

• the transmission feels like it "warms up faster" on a cold morning. That is, it seems to move sooner than it used to from its balky "I'm cold, don't expect too much" mode into "pick a gear, any gear."
• 3rd gear is a bit crunchy when the transmission is cold (this seems to be a winter thing). The crunchiness goes away sooner. This relates back to the first point.
• During the year I've owned this car, 2nd gear has always been a high effort gear. Even when the transmission is warm, it has felt like it takes effort and intention to shift to 2nd. That's gone. There's still definite positive engagement as the lever slots into 2nd gear, but it feels like it wants to go in. The high effort — when either upshifting or downshifting to 2nd — is gone.

In all, the drain and fill was a straightforward process and the fluid was relatively cheap. The improvements to the shifting, though small, are worth it to me. I'll be interested to see how long the improved feel remains on the OEM fluid.

Currently, my intention is to perform another fluid swap in 30k miles (48K km).

[F87source]

Originally Posted by jefe2000

I've seen many people here change to Redline DCTF or Motul Multi DCTF. Most report better shifting, but I am curious if anyone has replaced the factory fill with the OEM fluid and felt a difference?

I swapped the "factory fill" transmission fluid with OEM MTF-LT-5 fluid last weekend. The "factory fill" fluid came out a very dark, nearly black color. The new fluid is a quite-light brown. I didn't retain any old oil for a UOA. I posted some details about the actual drain and fill over in another thread:
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...6#post29808856

For my transmission with 34,600 mi (55,700 km), I'd say the there's a subtle difference with the new fluid. I do think it's more than placebo effect, but only just. I'm so familiar with the transmission feel that I notice a difference. Someone else who might jump in the car without close familiarity with it wouldn't say a thing about it.

Now that I've been driving the car for a week on the new fluid, the differences I notice are:

• the transmission feels like it "warms up faster" on a cold morning. That is, it seems to move sooner than it used to from its balky "I'm cold, don't expect too much" mode into "pick a gear, any gear."
• 3rd gear is a bit crunchy when the transmission is cold (this seems to be a winter thing). The crunchiness goes away sooner. This relates back to the first point.
• During the year I've owned this car, 2nd gear has always been a high effort gear. Even when the transmission is warm, it has felt like it takes effort and intention to shift to 2nd. That's gone. There's still definite positive engagement as the lever slots into 2nd gear, but it feels like it wants to go in. The high effort — when either upshifting or downshifting to 2nd — is gone.

In all, the drain and fill was a straightforward process and the fluid was relatively cheap. The improvements to the shifting, though small, are worth it to me. I'll be interested to see how long the improved feel remains on the OEM fluid.

Currently, my intention is to perform another fluid swap in 30k miles (48K km).

I have done a stock fluid flush at like 8000km and I can absolutely say there was a massive difference in shift feel. Just like you on my old fluid there was a knotchy/hardness to shift into second from first or from any gear as a matter of fact. After the fluid flush this was eliminated.

The only problem is that the stock fluid doesn't seem to hold the better shift feel for a long time, it seems to degrade fast.

[PackPride85]

Originally Posted by F87source

Anyways if you are looking for something to get your car into the air, I highly recommend ramps over jack stands or even a quick jack (although the benefit of this is it is much faster to get the car up, and it has more lifting height) as the ramp solution is significantly more stable and much cheaper.

I used to have that opinion until my plastic ramps cracked after 10 years. Granted, I was using them for an SUV as well as the M2 and they were being constantly temp cycled in my garage.
Good jack stands or a quick jack will last forever and 100% car is not going anywhere unless you have an earth quake. I do always stick the wheels or something else underneath as a backup tho just in case no matter what method.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by PackPride85

I used to have that opinion until my plastic ramps cracked after 10 years. Granted, I was using them for an SUV as well as the M2 and they were being constantly temp cycled in my garage.
Good jack stands or a quick jack will last forever and 100% car is not going anywhere unless you have an earth quake. I do always stick the wheels or something else underneath as a backup tho just in case no matter what method.

Even if it does crack it's going to be extremely inexpensive to replace. In terms of the quick jack quick disconnect fittings can wear out over time, same as the pump, electronics, and corrosion can damage the frame especially from dragging it against the ground.

With the quick jack and or jack stands, are you confident with pushing the car as hard as you can? Because with my setup I'm absolutely confident it's not going anywhere and I've tested that and it's not moving an inch, it's not even rocking an inch. A metal on metal jack pad adapter pad that is a couple square inches in diameter going onto a plastic jack isn't really my idea of stable.