[chris719]

I've seen many people here change to Redline DCTF or Motul Multi DCTF. Most report better shifting, but I am curious if anyone has replaced the factory fill with the OEM fluid and felt a difference?

The OEM fluid should be BMW MTF-LT-5 aka Pentosin FFL-3. The Pentosin datasheet that I found shows it has pretty much identical viscosity to the Motul and is slightly thinner than the Redline. Pour point is very low and VI high so probably a quality oil. This makes me wonder if the change people notice is from new fluid and not necessarily because the other fluids are "better" in some way. Typically, shift quality improves with a lower viscosity oil, although I guess it can depend on the additives and friction modifiers as well.

I did come across the Motul High Torque DCTF, but I am not sure if this is appropriate for the 6MT. The datasheet doesn't show any MT applications unlike the Multi DCTF. It does reference FFL-3 but not MTF-LT-5. I reached out to Motul to get their thoughts and will let you know what they say.

[AlpsRider]

I changed the 6 MT fluid at 4 years and 25k miles with BMW stock fluid. I noticed quite a difference in shifting. I don't know if another fluid would be even better or not.

[Track/S]

I wouldn't waste time, use the easiest oil you can get.

[jefe2000]

I’ll be changing out the fluid on the 6MT in my ‘18 M2 sometime in the next month or two. I already have the fluid and drain/fill plugs, just gotta get out to the garage and make it happen. I’ll be using BMW MTF-LT-5 as the replacement fluid.

I currently have just a tick over 34K miles on the car today. I can let ya know how it feels post-fluid-swap once it’s all said and done.

[///MPhatic]

I have an '18 with 26K on the clock so I'm due, just waiting until Spring. I'll probably go with OEM unless edycol tells me differently.

[Daytona_550]

I did the MT OE oil service at 6k miles and noticed substantial improvement in shifting smoothness.

[DriftKr6l]

Is it true that BMW MTF-LT-5 is Pentosin FFL-3?
Is there proof of this?
Thx

[chris719]

Originally Posted by DriftKr6l

Is ot true that BMW MTF-LT-5 is Pentosin FFL-3?
Is there proof of this?
Thx

I can't find it. I was pretty sure I had seen that ZF said the factory fill is FFL-3 somewhere.

Edit: here you go-

https://aftermarket.zf.com/remotemed...e-ml-11-en.pdf

Also this pic of a 1 L bottle with Pentosin stamp from 1addicts:

[DriftKr6l]

Originally Posted by chris719

I can't find it. I was pretty sure I had seen that ZF said the factory fill is FFL-3 somewhere.

Edit: here you go-

https://aftermarket.zf.com/remotemed...e-ml-11-en.pdf

Also this pic of a 1 L bottle with Pentosin stamp from 1addicts:

Nice.

Are we sure the equivalent to factory fill is FFL-3 and not FFL-4? Read a few posts that its actually FFL-4.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by DriftKr6l

Nice.

Are we sure the equivalent to factory fill is FFL-3 and not FFL-4? Read a few posts that its actually FFL-4.

Every cross reference shows BMW MTF-LT-5 is a DCT fluid, so FFL-3. The PDF I linked shows the GS6-45BZ transmission uses FFL-3.

Edit:
Well, FFL-4 is also a DCTF, so it is possible I guess, but ZF does list FFL-3.

I found a thread on a GT-R forum where they contacted the lead developer of these oils from Pentosin and he said that FFL-3 and FFL-4 are both the 2nd generation design, 3 for Porsche PDK and 4 for BMW DCT. My guess is that they are nearly identical fluids.

Look at the datasheet for each, the numbers are the same for everything... it's possibly the exact same fluid:

FFL-3:
https://www.1addicts.com/forums/atta...4&d=1361720322

FFL-4:
https://www.1addicts.com/forums/atta...5&d=1361720322

[DriftKr6l]

Originally Posted by chris719

Every cross reference shows BMW MTF-LT-5 is a DCT fluid, so FFL-3. The PDF I linked shows the GS6-45BZ transmission uses FFL-3.

Edit:
Well, FFL-4 is also a DCTF, so it is possible I guess, but ZF does list FFL-3.

I found a thread on a GT-R forum where they contacted the lead developer of these oils from Pentosin and he said that FFL-3 and FFL-4 are both the 2nd generation design, 3 for Porsche PDK and 4 for BMW DCT. My guess is that they are nearly identical fluids.

Look at the datasheet for each, the numbers are the same for everything... it's possibly the exact same fluid:

FFL-3:
https://www.1addicts.com/forums/atta...4&d=1361720322

FFL-4:
https://www.1addicts.com/forums/atta...5&d=1361720322

Good info.
Cheers.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by chris719

I've seen many people here change to Redline DCTF or Motul Multi DCTF. Most report better shifting, but I am curious if anyone has replaced the factory fill with the OEM fluid and felt a difference?

The OEM fluid should be BMW MTF-LT-5 aka Pentosin FFL-3. The Pentosin datasheet that I found shows it has pretty much identical viscosity to the Motul and is slightly thinner than the Redline. Pour point is very low and VI high so probably a quality oil. This makes me wonder if the change people notice is from new fluid and not necessarily because the other fluids are "better" in some way. Typically, shift quality improves with a lower viscosity oil, although I guess it can depend on the additives and friction modifiers as well.

I did come across the Motul High Torque DCTF, but I am not sure if this is appropriate for the 6MT. The datasheet doesn't show any MT applications unlike the Multi DCTF. It does reference FFL-3 but not MTF-LT-5. I reached out to Motul to get their thoughts and will let you know what they say.

I swaped with OEM fluid in 2020, and even though at the time my car only had 8,000km I noticed a major improvement in shift feel. The 1-2 shift was no where as notchy as it was before, and there was less hesistation/resistance in the shift. Everything was alot smoother in terms of engaging gears so it was absolutely worth it imo.

I would only imagine an aftermarket fluid being better, given the quality of base stocks (group 3/4 -> esters) would offer a way better shift feel. So next fluid is going to be redline dctf.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by chris719

Every cross reference shows BMW MTF-LT-5 is a DCT fluid, so FFL-3. The PDF I linked shows the GS6-45BZ transmission uses FFL-3.

Edit:
Well, FFL-4 is also a DCTF, so it is possible I guess, but ZF does list FFL-3.

I found a thread on a GT-R forum where they contacted the lead developer of these oils from Pentosin and he said that FFL-3 and FFL-4 are both the 2nd generation design, 3 for Porsche PDK and 4 for BMW DCT. My guess is that they are nearly identical fluids.

Look at the datasheet for each, the numbers are the same for everything... it's possibly the exact same fluid:

FFL-3:
https://www.1addicts.com/forums/atta...4&d=1361720322

FFL-4:
https://www.1addicts.com/forums/atta...5&d=1361720322

You are correct, MTF LT5 from what I have read/found is a low viscosity DCT fluid.

In terms of FFL3 vs FFl4 the levels of friction modifiers could be different, because different clutch packs like varying amounts of FM to function properly.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by ///MPhatic

I have an '18 with 26K on the clock so I'm due, just waiting until Spring. I'll probably go with OEM unless edycol tells me differently.

You'll absolutely notice a major improvement on shift feel with new fluid.

Personally I would recommend going aftermarket on the manual gear box, it's not sensitive like the diff is so you have more fluid choices. Plus the specs of the redline oil looks to be legit, and alot of people have said it shifts alot better with redline than it does with stock fluid.


I am going to do fluid either this year or next year, and will report the difference vs. stock. Since I will have experience with both by this time.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by F87source

I swaped with OEM fluid in 2020, and even though at the time my car only had 8,000km I noticed a major improvement in shift feel. The 1-2 shift was no where as notchy as it was before, and there was less hesistation/resistance in the shift. Everything was alot smoother in terms of engaging gears so it was absolutely worth it imo.

I would only imagine an aftermarket fluid being better, given the quality of base stocks (group 3/4 -> esters) would offer a way better shift feel. So next fluid is going to be redline dctf.

Glad to hear, I'm probably going to do a change with OEM soon.

I think it's tricky to say if an aftermarket fluid will be better. When you look at the data, Pentosin FFL-3 is actually one of the best DCTF and looks to have much more group 4 than, say, the regular Motul DCTF. I also don't know if a better base oil even affects the shift feel much since you do need some friction for the synchros to work, and no one discloses anything about the friction modifiers. Redline DCTF is slightly heavier than the Pentosin, so it will be interesting to see if it's better or worse. The Motul High Torque DCTF looks good but might be the 300V of transmission fluids where you have to be careful about the interval.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by chris719

Glad to hear, I'm probably going to do a change with OEM soon.

I think it's tricky to say if an aftermarket fluid will be better. When you look at the data, Pentosin FFL-3 is actually one of the best DCTF and looks to have much more group 4 than, say, the regular Motul DCTF. I also don't know if a better base oil even affects the shift feel much since you do need some friction for the synchros to work, and no one discloses anything about the friction modifiers. Redline DCTF is slightly heavier than the Pentosin, so it will be interesting to see if it's better or worse. The Motul High Torque DCTF looks good but might be the 300V of transmission fluids where you have to be careful about the interval.

Yeah I agree, I was hesitant at first to consider aftermarket fluids. But I really don't think the stock bmw fluid is very good at all. At 8,000 km in 4 years (which is extremely low mileage), the stock fluid deteriorated extremely rapidly. True it could be due to break in metals, but the fluid did drain pretty clean. Even now with the new OEM fluid being in the car for just 2 years, the shifting isn't as good as it was after the fresh flush. So I think the stock fluid degrades way too fast, whether that be due to shearing or oxidation I do not know (I should do a UOA but we will see).

So I will be going to redline next, because they keep advertising that their oils have pretty good oxidation resistance despite being an ester based oil, and it should have way better shear resistance than stock.


I agree that the Pentosin looks good, but from what I can tell on my own car it doesn't seem to hold up well with use. So a more robust oil should offer better shear resistance and hopefully hold up better over time, so even if peak shift feel isn't better it should retain the better feel longer. In terms of oxidation I really don't know, maybe these gear boxes just need to be flushed more often. Either way redline dctf is next, and I will report back on what I feel. Hopefully it is an improvement.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by Prodrive_X

I wouldn't waste time, use the easiest oil you can get.

You could be right. Do you think most differences people notice are placebo?

[Track/S]

Originally Posted by chris719

You could be right. Do you think most differences people notice are placebo?

I am 100% sure that you will not notice any difference between motul dctf and the oem, after changing the oil I noticed the smoothest gears, i do not think that the effect is placebo.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by Prodrive_X

I am 100% sure that you will not notice any difference between motul dctf and the oem, after changing the oil I noticed the smoothest gears, i do not think that the effect is placebo.

I see, so you think it's the new fluid that makes the difference, not the type.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by chris719

I see, so you think it's the new fluid that makes the difference, not the type.

Personally I don't think its a placebo, new fluid defintely makes a difference. I was never able to shift 1-2 smoothly before, and after a fluid change this shift became flawless.

Now how big an impact each fluid has is the question, it could very well be a minor difference if any difference at all between the fluid types. But with a better base stock means more shear resistance and thus a longer retention of improved shift feel. Hence why it might be a wise idea to look into an aftermarket fluid.

[Track/S]

Originally Posted by chris719

I see, so you think it's the new fluid that makes the difference, not the type.

Exactly

[edycol]

Originally Posted by F87source

You'll absolutely notice a major improvement on shift feel with new fluid.

Personally I would recommend going aftermarket on the manual gear box, it's not sensitive like the diff is so you have more fluid choices. Plus the specs of the redline oil looks to be legit, and alot of people have said it shifts alot better with redline than it does with stock fluid.


I am going to do fluid either this year or next year, and will report the difference vs. stock. Since I will have experience with both by this time.

Any high-quality new fluid will improve shifts. There are two variables to consider, where top-notch fluids are important:
1. How long it keeps those smooth shifts (Motul, Redline, Amsoil and HPL are top products).
2. Track use. Aftermarket fluids are the way to go if the car is tracked. One does not want the fluid to become too thin on the track, and with that, jeopardize shifts. In the manual that is extremely important so that a "money shift" does not happen.