[Telluride]

Interesting discussion... comments?

Is Jordan the expert he portrays himself to be? Not being wise... just an unknown to me outside of posters on forums who push his tunes.

S55 comment comes just past 55 minute mark.

[chris719]

No info on Jordan, but I think his comments are in the context of making stupid power with built motors. I think S58 is clearly better at moderate power levels.

[jayee88]

I've only heard good things about RK Tunes but I have no experience with him myself. Like chris719 said, his comments are in terms of making stupid power, not a modest bump in daily-able power. The Achilles heel of the S55 (crank hub) is a moot point if you're building a motor. It's just one more small thing on the checklist. That being said, when you're not building the whole motor and just want like ~600whp on an S55, the crank hub becomes an expensive endeavor.

[F87source]

I don't have any experience on Jordan at Rk tunes either, but I know he has some crazy F80 records, and he tuned Tyspeed's m2, and I haven't heard anything bad about him either. IIRC he used some bespoke obd2 adapter for his tunes awhile back which people weren't a fan of, but if im not mistaken he can tune with BM3 and MHD now so that's always nice. He also makes front mounted intakes - which I personally never liked due to it blocking air flow to the radiator and being susceptible to rock damage, but if you are seeking for the coldest possible iats then that's an option.


In regards to his comments - I don't expect this to hold true for too much longer (if it holds true at all), the B58 (and in turn the S58) has massive aftermarket support due to the mk5 supra (like he said). The supra aftermarket support is exponentially greater than the BMW market, it has the support of industry giants like AMS, real street etc. So yeah, I really doubt that the B58 and S58 will ever be behind the S55 in any way - the only limitations now is just tuning for those platforms. But in terms of power output and records, the S58 and B58 will be far ahead when all is said and done.

In terms of doing it cheaper, then he may be on to something in regards to the head gaskets and the S55 being able to obtain these power figures much easier. In regards to his comments about the crank hub being easily drilled even in the drive way - it's not entirely true, for some reason I have heard alot of shops botch the install and drill the holes crooked even with the guide tool. In terms of the G8x being a better chassis, yes it is, but keep in mind BMW didn't design these things for drag racing, it was designed for the track - M vehicles are motorsport orientated and not drag strip orientated. It's not a hellcat where straight line is all that matters.

[Westersund]

That would be a no. The Red Bull drift brothers have been beating on their S58's for 2 seasons with 1000+ hp with stock internals. Haven't seen anyone doing that with a S55 with stock internals.

[Telluride]

Originally Posted by Westersund

That would be a no. The Red Bull drift brothers have been beating on their S58's for 2 seasons with 1000+ hp with stock internals. Haven't seen anyone doing that with a S55 with stock internals.

Good commentary, all around. And the drift brothers video... well done and informative. Thanks for sharing.

[///MPhatic]

Originally Posted by F87source

I don't have any experience on Jordan at Rk tunes either, but I know he has some crazy F80 records, and he tuned Tyspeed's m2, and I haven't heard anything bad about him either.

I think my issue with the video is that "better" is a subjective term. Better for 2 weeks for .0000001% of owners? Could be. Better for the average M3 buyer that wants the low-hanging fruit? I sincerely doubt it.

[Westersund]

Originally Posted by Telluride

Good commentary, all around. And the drift brothers video... well done and informative. Thanks for sharing.

I think it's a cool move from BMW to give each of them a brand new M4 to build drift cars. In addition it's great advertisement to show that the engine is a real beast (internals) and with a walk through as well to show how well it have taken 2 years of abuse.

[imperfectluck]

Originally Posted by Westersund

That would be a no. The Red Bull drift brothers have been beating on their S58's for 2 seasons with 1000+ hp with stock internals. Haven't seen anyone doing that with a S55 with stock internals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_D6aywCInfI

I respect it though looking back at the S63 and a few S58s I’ve seen including chatting with tuners here in NYC, you really are sitting on borrowed time on stock internals at that power level.

Rick from Mpowerhouse has what I believe still the fastest G80 quarter mile times and his without a doubt is a built motor.

Beating on any of these engines at those power levels, it’s a matter of when not if.

Whilst I love the S55, the S58 is its true successor engine wise. The G8x chassis works much better with it too, it’s just the design language. From an engineering standpoint, it takes the cake.

I will say from a more track focused perspective (the true home of these motors), I’ve hawked in on a number of G8x chassis on track due to the weight (exception being the CSL as I’ve seen one on track move beautifully).

[Westersund]

I think 2 years and 30 events is testament enough that the internals can take a beating. An engine can get scrapped, forged internals or not, it depends on how well built and tuned it is. The build quality seem impeccable on the S58 and I'm guessing the Drift Borthers engines are very well tuned since they are still DI, not many after market tuners that can get that stuff right.

[Track/S]

The order would be this:

S55 ---> B58 ---> S58

[F87source]

Originally Posted by Track/S

The order would be this:

S55 ---> B58 ---> S58

Not trying to be a dick or anything, but the arrow points to what's better right (I'm more used to comparison operators)?

If so I agree. But maybe I'd put the s55 higher than the b58 because it has a better sump that's capable of sustaining high G forces, while the b58 still has a basic open sump. The s58 has a really interesting triple pick up system though.

[Track/S]

Originally Posted by F87source

Not trying to be a dick or anything, but the arrow points to what's better right (I'm more used to comparison operators)?

If so I agree. But maybe I'd put the s55 higher than the b58 because it has a better sump that's capable of sustaining high G forces, while the b58 still has a basic open sump. The s58 has a really interesting triple pick up system though.

You are right, the sump system of the s55 is superior to the b58, i think this could be improved by partitioning the pan.

I have a friend who uses his 140i on the track, we will see how long it lasts without breaking.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by Track/S

You are right, the sump system of the s55 is superior to the b58, i think this could be improved by partitioning the pan.

I have a friend who uses his 140i on the track, we will see how long it lasts without breaking.

Yeah makes sense, I agree with your listing then - except maybe I'd swap the b58 and s55 or make them equal.


Can't you just add the triple pick up and pumps of the s58? It'll probably be alot more than baffling the pan, but Itll be more reliable since a baffled pan can still run dry under sustained G forces if nothing is filling it back up. This is why the s55 has the scavenging pump and the s58 has 3 pick ups.


I think the b58 might be a lot less proned to oil starvation than the non m2 n55 engines were, since the supra guys are pushing them hard on track and seemingly don't have issues. But only time will tell.

[Track/S]

Originally Posted by F87source

Yeah makes sense, I agree with your listing then - except maybe I'd swap the b58 and s55 or make them equal.


Can't you just add the triple pick up and pumps of the s58? It'll probably be alot more than baffling the pan, but Itll be more reliable since a baffled pan can still run dry under sustained G forces if nothing is filling it back up. This is why the s55 has the scavenging pump and the s58 has 3 pick ups.


I think the b58 might be a lot less proned to oil starvation than the non m2 n55 engines were, since the supra guys are pushing them hard on track and seemingly don't have issues. But only time will tell.

I have to get a broken S58 and check if the oil pump can be mounted on the B58.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by Track/S

I have to get a broken S58 and check if the oil pump can be mounted on the B58.

Cool, keep us posted!

[Telluride]

Originally Posted by Westersund

That would be a no. The Red Bull drift brothers have been beating on their S58's for 2 seasons with 1000+ hp with stock internals. Haven't seen anyone doing that with a S55 with stock internals.

Down the rabbit hole I go...

This video has me feeling like I was dropped back into a university lecture hall. Like the OP video interview, this guy gives a lot of credit to the Supra crowd.

Overall, very informative and answers a lot of questions I've wondered about... such as compression and why boosted cars run less, direct vs port injection, cast vs forged, etc. (and pay attention to his reasoning of why BMW uses cast piston)

And while his video is about the B48, I think worth the watch. In his conclusion he does give a bit of time to the S58 and its advantage over the B48.

[fourthchirpin]

in reference to the video Jordan said when making 1200WHP. the S55 did not have head gasket issues where the other 2 motors in his experience has had making more than 1200whp.


From that alone this is his basis for better made engine given all 3 motors have built internals all with stock headgaskets.

The Internet likes to think about records or highest power as metrics for best engines. Aftermarket support does help in these things as well. I wish i knew more of the details of the engines like physical dimensions of the block internals to truely know which is better.
and then you have head design. Until someone actually goes into detail about those things you really can't go into what is better engine wise. Engine Builders know.