02-09-2019, 11:27 PM | #45 | |
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The 1M and Z3M (if I recall correctly) were also essentially “parts bin” cars, and also two of the most beloved and iconic M cars ever made. I would also put the M2/M2C in that category because they’re spiritual successors to the older, smaller M3s. Low production numbers and exclusivity don’t determine what is iconic.
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02-10-2019, 07:56 AM | #46 | |
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You can differentiate between value and numbers but that says nothing about the historical status. Look at 3.0 CS(L) or 2002. Every true Bimmer fan is excited when seeing them because they are iconic. The only difference to the M1 is they were cheaper. I guess the M2 Competition will also get that status. Also because it belongs most likely to one of the last (pure) gasoline Bimmer generations. And because it's a stunning beauty! |
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02-10-2019, 07:58 AM | #47 | ||
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But to say there's nothing unique about the M2 is ridiculous. How many other small, RWD, MT, moderately high HP with standard LSD cars are on the market?
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02-10-2019, 08:02 AM | #48 |
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We know what you mean but for clarification, it's the 1M.
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02-11-2019, 07:16 AM | #49 |
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Only if the CSL was MT...
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02-11-2019, 07:47 AM | #50 |
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See, I think that's a philosophical thing - if CSL is intended to be the absolute best BMW can do, then you're not going to see MT options (I wouldn't think).
For example, you can get a GT3 in a manual, but not the GT2 RS or GT3 RS (I think) - which makes sense. The ultimate versions of those cars are designed to achieve the best possible lap times...but Porsche was smart enough to give the GT3 a manual. I would like to see a CS or CSL in MT trim, just for the option for those who want it, but BMW might have decided that the Competition is the highest level they will offer a MT...time will tell.
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02-11-2019, 08:22 AM | #51 | |||
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02-11-2019, 10:35 AM | #52 |
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Top Gear - CSL Review - Jeremy Clarkson
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02-11-2019, 10:37 AM | #53 |
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Last edited by BMW.KC; 02-11-2019 at 10:38 AM.. Reason: Title Missing |
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02-11-2019, 12:12 PM | #55 | |
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02-12-2019, 07:49 AM | #56 | |
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02-12-2019, 08:30 AM | #57 |
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I have SMG III, so I can't speak for SMG II but I had ridden in it back in the day.
SMGII could do this thing where you'd jerk back and forth at idle speed, really violent and pathetic looking. The SMG also isn't smooth shifting like ZF8. In fact BMW has attached the giant slush box to the ZF8 solely to ensure the idle at stop lights was smooth. Anyone complaining about SMG should first consider that. That's pretty pathetic, BMW obviously has to do what sells, and so many normal idiots in leases cars demanded smooth idles that you have all that added weight solely to appease them. They do not care about that. Shameful display. But SMG is technically an H pattern getrag with a pump, similar to what BMW uses in its actual race cars. No, real SMGs like in a motorcycle are not H pattern, but BMW and Ferrari have both used SMG H pattern sequentials with pumps for racing applications and still do. Porsche as well. The Hatred of the SMG is just another example of the ignorant plebeians buying a race transmission and being confused about why it doesn't crawl forward when they lift the brake at a stop light. Anyone shitting on the SMG without having driven it is simply listening to the average moron complain his cars auto didn't work right, that he broke it out of ignorance, called it unreliable and then got rid of it when his lease was up. My car's SMG went 100k miles with only a clutch replacement. Most people drive it like a torque converter auto and get mad when it doesn't respond like one. If you are just slamming on the gas and shifting your throttle input will interfere with the computer and slow the whole thing down. The easiest way to make it happy without going into detail is simply lift the throttle a hair when you downshift and suddenly you're experiencing lightning fast shifts that are much smoother than the ZF6/8 which is only really good at low speed stoplight shifting. DCT is good when it guesses your shift correctly, if not it's a slower shift. They also have the problem of being heavy. I've not heard of one being in an actual racing environment since the 80s and of course a homemade M4 GT4. SMG is simply too GOAT to be sold to the masses. Even CVTs fake shifts in Honda's to make it feel more normal for the average idiot. SMG died (for production vehicles, very alive in racing) because it wasn't a slush box auto. Shame on anyone who bad mouths it based on the average rubes opinion. Enjoy your slushbox M5 Bimmerpost, you deserve it! You also deserve your slushbox M3 and slushbox future! You chose this and reinforce it by posting that the SMG ruins the CSL! What a joke, your borderline race car came with a race car transmission and ruined it.... |
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02-12-2019, 05:02 PM | #58 | |
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The reality is that you can have all of the upside with virtually no downside with the ZF. I'm a 6MT guy so in the end I don't really care, but I had to live with a SMG in a E46 M3 for a while and I firmly believe that this transmission is pure garbage. BMW themselves has said that they were able to get the ZF to shift just as fast and has the added plus of being lighter than the DCT it replaces. So if the performance is better AND you can get some level of refinement and comfort, no need for the single or dual clutch autos. |
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02-13-2019, 12:48 AM | #59 | |
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I could see someone prefer it, though. Just like some people prefer the artificial jerk put in the higher DCT modes on the F8x. |
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03-03-2019, 06:23 AM | #60 | |||
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If you want to know how much a truly lighter M2 would cost look no further than the Porsche 718 and those start at $60k but skyrocket with options.
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03-05-2019, 10:42 AM | #61 | ||
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In my mind the ZF is nice for traffic. I don't like the feel, especially compared to the Audi. I do like the quality of life improvements. SMG having 6 settings is annoying to change when really I prefer Sport+ and eco. SMG also is annoying because the computer will hang at 2.9k revs for ever if the shift point is 3k for example where the ZF will shift to most economic for you. I also like you can flappy paddle Down shift for a highway pass without exiting auto mode and it will revert back after 5 seconds or so. SMG will stay Manual forever if you downshift with a paddle. It also has Auto Manual and 'M' mode settings and is annoying to drive. Push M mode for some fun and it goes to whatever you program it to. Turn off M mode and it goes to whatever manual setting you have it to then you have to put it into Auto mode to get it back to auto. The computers in the new BMW transmissions are better in every Way. However by the numbers, SMGIII is 65ms, DCT is 200 ms, and ZF is 220ms. This is all upshifts as well. ZF has annoying traits for performance. at high torque settings it is not as fast or smooth. Just isn't. It can't skip 2 gears either and you have to do the mildly annoying shift wait shift. The kick down button on the pedal is incredibly annoying. SMG isn't reliable or smooth but ZF is boring and an obvious compromise désignés to attract Camry buyers not track boys. BMW should be bullied about it or you'll be stuck with it or something worse next generation. A transmission that works for hybrids and SUVs isn't going to be best for M cars. The Gord/GM 10 speed for example. |
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03-05-2019, 02:41 PM | #62 | |
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03-05-2019, 07:48 PM | #63 |
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I hope to answer this as my M2c comes home tomorrow to join my CSL. Both fantastic cars.
SMG II in the CSL is using different software, if i remember correctly it is the fastest shifting SMG gearbox BMW have, quicker than the V10s SMG gearbox. Its a different in use and feel to an auto and Dual Clutch. All i will say Lamborghini still uses a robotized Manual box in their Aventador ! |
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03-06-2019, 07:21 AM | #64 | |
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The e46 m3 had SMG had SMGII-- which was 80ms shifts, at redline, at WOT, in S6 (vary any of those conditions and it's slower, to varying degrees).
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03-06-2019, 11:32 AM | #65 |
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Just picked the comp up will post more pics up when weathers better
Last edited by C5L; 03-06-2019 at 11:39 AM.. |
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03-07-2019, 02:11 PM | #66 | ||
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I'd say it's more likely you are confused by the lack of kick in the DCT and ZF8. I had spent some more time with the ZF8 in a 328d last week. It most definitely doesn't shift faster than SMGIII in highest setting, definitely a lot smoother though. Unless ZF8 has a hidden setting? I was shifting in sport + with the shifter to manual mode. BMW likes to hide these things so it's possibly buried in the menu somewhere or M cars only? Anyway ZF8 wasn't much of an improvement over ZF6. Same slushbox but apparently a complete redesign after that. Nice transmission compared to GM and Ford and the Japs, no doubt but I'd be mad if it was in my M car. Remember BMW only uses it because it's rated for high torque, can run a hybrid, has no development fee, and is bought in bulk already. The alternative is developing a new DCT or manual for high horsepower only applications in M cars which sell under 20k and a small fraction of their market. They're not picking it because it's awesome, they certainly don't race with it. They just know they can save money without hurting sales by using it in M cars. I also found out my SMG differential needs a $700 fluid change. Ouch. Have the DCTs had expensive repairs? |
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