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      01-29-2020, 01:14 AM   #1365
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Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
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Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
Apparently, even Subaru is jumping on the Limited Edition bandwagon an according to the inter-web, all 209 US-bound units already spoken for, at MSRP of $64,000.
OK, if you want to make your significant other feel special, say "Honey, you are precious, limited edition, 1 of 1".

My beloved wife has a twin-sister (though they cannot fool me, I can spot the difference), so should I say "1 of 1" or "1 of 2" ?
He he.. Twins, that must be quite an experience at family reunions..

Just saying, money doesn't buy intelligence and a car purchases are not really rational decisions. I believe there are more than 500 'suckers' out there that would likely scoop all of them up, simple because of its "limited edition" status.

I wish I could introduce you to some folks I know, like my mother's friend who bought a 'limited-edition' Ferrari because he can. He doesn't even know what model it is, just that it's rare, so it must be special.

The M2 platform has a cult-like following, the CS will move, IMHO.
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      01-29-2020, 02:18 AM   #1366
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Possible summary of this thread after 1370+ comments dealing with the M2 €$...

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      01-29-2020, 05:28 AM   #1367
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
M2 CS future resale value: wake up and smell the coffee...

"While some debate will inevitably continue as to the merits of the BMW M3 and M4 CS, there's less equivocation around the price: they were too expensive. The tweaks that were employed over the contemporary Competition cars were certainly worthwhile, although they could never fully justify the premium for the many thousands asked over them."
(PH - Jan 27, 2020 - https://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-...-spotted/41716)
This whole thread is just weird. It could be the case material for a psychiatric convention.
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      01-29-2020, 05:48 AM   #1368
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Originally Posted by medphysdave View Post
I'm curious at what price folks in other countries would think it's a buy. In the US $83.6. That would be €76k and £66.4k. I'm guessing that if folks in other countries could get it for this price they would be ecstatic. Our taxes are not quite as heavy and vary by state, but assume another 10%.

And the argument that folks in other countries make more money due to the money conversion is not necessarily true. My field is much less lucrative in Europe when compared to US.
In Australia the M2C is around $75k US on road (DCT and most everything bar big brakes included). A true bargain.
M2cs with DCT is around $115k US on road.
On road includes GST, "luxury tax" and other kind government initiatives designed to part evil rich people from their money.
Changeover for me looks like $41k US on what will be an 18 month to 2 year old car depending on when the new one is delivered. I think this is ok. I have the cash and don't need finance. The CS is the final form of my favourite car. So I need to have it. I think I will own it for a long time.

They are just working on how many we will get now. Talk is 75-100. Weird that Benelux gets more than us. I thought we were a bigger market. But who knows!

For reference 911 c2s here is $231k US on road. After checking one out I prefer the M2C anyway let alone the CS. But that's me.
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      01-29-2020, 05:54 AM   #1369
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I'm contrasting all of this with the E30 M3 and E28 M5 sales here in the US back in the day. BMWNA couldn't hardly give away the M3 and the last 1/2 of the M5s back then (i.e. 1988 for M5 and then through 1991 with the M3). With the E34 5-series hitting the scenes in late 1987 (and the E32 coming out just a few months after the M5 here, i.e. late summer 1987), the M5 was viewed as a "Frigidaire" (think C&D branded it that), passe, old news, not worth the money, etc. It's like the market (people) had more sense back then, demanded to be rewarded for their spending, unlike today's world in a sense. Perhaps it's because so few people actually buy cars today, and if you can fog a mirror, you can get a lease on a car that punches way above prudent levels for your finances.

One of the now sought after, one of about 30, black/black M5s sat on my dealer's lot in Charlotte for months and months, discounted, with continual price reductions. It had those neon red price stickers on the windshield they would update as price was reduced. It had a spot on their podium right in the front middle of the dealership. It was there forever it seemed. I would drive by, look over, and there that poor E28 M5 just sat and waited. I think they ended up with it on the lot for over one year.

At the BMW CCA Foundation closing ceremony for this past year's exhibit a couple of weeks ago, there was a panel discussion about the history of M cars and the history of M-sport package options on non-M cars. It was interesting to hear all the head guys from BMWNA who were responsible for marketing these cars back then talk about the history of M cars here in the US, how BMWAG's experience with BMWNA in trying to sell the E30 M3 and E28 M5 had turned them off to attempting to bring future M cars to the US, and then the disaster experience of the E34 M5 convinced AG that M cars in America were done for, lol.
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      01-29-2020, 06:41 AM   #1370
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davil View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
M2 CS future resale value: wake up and smell the coffee...
"While some debate will inevitably continue as to the merits of the BMW M3 and M4 CS, there's less equivocation around the price: they were too expensive. The tweaks that were employed over the contemporary Competition cars were certainly worthwhile, although they could never fully justify the premium for the many thousands asked over them."
(PH - Jan 27, 2020 - https://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-...-spotted/41716)
This whole thread is just weird. It could be the case material for a psychiatric convention.
Don't shoot the messengers/pianists over here. It's rather BMW who went '///Mental' with M2 CS pricing.
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      01-29-2020, 08:04 AM   #1371
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davil View Post
This whole thread is just weird. It could be the case material for a psychiatric convention.
It's probably more just the usual case of the strength of internet opinions and "expertise". Lots of keyboard economists, product planners, business analysts, marketing gurus, shamans, prophets, and the like of the highest order are clearly resident - myself included .
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      01-29-2020, 07:34 PM   #1372
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Originally Posted by sdhotwn View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Davil View Post
This whole thread is just weird. It could be the case material for a psychiatric convention.
It's probably more just the usual case of the strength of internet opinions and "expertise". Lots of keyboard economists, product planners, business analysts, marketing gurus, shamans, prophets, and the like of the highest order are clearly resident - myself included .
I meant the piston heads one. It's next level weird.
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      01-29-2020, 07:51 PM   #1373
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I meant the piston heads one. It's next level weird.
I hadn't read the thread. Just glanced through a few pages. There is some entertainment there, and I see what you are saying (the finance arguments in particular) but it also doesn't seem all that far off from our grousing back and forth here . Most non-car people think we all belong in a padded cell as is, this discussion is further evidence for them.
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      01-29-2020, 08:09 PM   #1374
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdhotwn View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Davil View Post
I meant the piston heads one. It's next level weird.
I hadn't read the thread. Just glanced through a few pages. There is some entertainment there, and I see what you are saying (the finance arguments in particular)
It's pretty obvious, we just tiptoe around the subject but the fact is, anyone who's into the M2 model, would take a M2 CS in a heartbeat.

I mean, who wouldn't want an ultra-M2 but obviously the price tag dictates a lot of people's opinion, even if they refuse to admit it.

It's the same reason I didn't get that lime-green Murciélago with the door that open to the skies - because you know, it burns too much gas..

See what I did there..
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      01-29-2020, 10:25 PM   #1375
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Yes, but you get a LOT more car with that comparison!

Price is a huge factor. You don't get 50% more car with the CS vs C. Maybe 10%. The price is disproportionate IMO.

Would I take a CS if I didn't have a Competition AND the price was ~$70,000? Probably...

Cars are really bad investments and drop like rocks in value. I'm an enthusiast, and I could swing the CS, but it's a bad investment if you compare it to the Competition (for me.)

Now, if I were a multi-millionaire that might be a different story...

Edit: to be fair, a brand new Competition is a bad investment too, but it's $25,000 less I'm losing compared to a car that seems very close in spec/performance.
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      01-30-2020, 07:56 AM   #1376
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Originally Posted by smknjoe View Post

Edit: to be fair, a brand new Competition is a bad investment too, but it's $25,000 less I'm losing compared to a car that seems very close in spec/performance.
I think this is the more salient point of contention actually. Will it be an extra 25K in drop or not. I personally don't see any point where the CS is the same price on the used market as an M2C. So the question is what the differential ends up being, and when. 1 year after release is a CS worth 5K more, 10K more 20k more than a C? 3-5 years? That's really the answer to what the markup/car is worth in more relative terms. There are certainly some people that believe/hope that 1-3 years out the answer is it's worth MORE than they paid for it. Personally, if it depreciated no worse than the M2/M2C has (roughly 11-14k total across 3 years per what I cited above) I'll be over the moon about the financial side.

Edit: Looking at some autotrader listings, it would appear the attempted ask on the 1-2 actual CS models looks about 20k+ above market of similar 2018 M3's. So that would be a good sign.
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      01-30-2020, 08:22 AM   #1377
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Originally Posted by sdhotwn View Post
Looking at some autotrader listings, it would appear the attempted ask on the 1-2 actual CS models looks about 20k+ above market of similar 2018 M3's. So that would be a good sign.
And correct me if I am wrong, but the CS on the M3 and M4 were DCT only. 6mt cars tend to hold their value better, so I wouldn't be surprised to see very little depreciation on the M2CS.

The M2, as it sits, is already in a niche market. Compare the depreciation of the M2 to some of its competitors (Camaro, Mustang, RS3, etc.), it can actually be surprising. So while the CS is $25k more than the Comp, it won't depreciate nearly as quickly as an already slowly depreciating car, in my opinion at least.
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      01-30-2020, 09:24 AM   #1378
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It's pretty obvious, we just tiptoe around the subject but the fact is, anyone who's into the M2 model, would take a M2 CS in a heartbeat.
Completely disagree. Not a fan of the wheels (black OR gold), the center console is goofy. Not a fan of carbon for the sake of carbon (I have no interest in CF splitters or diffusers on my M2C), not a huge fan of the blue paint.

And? It's stupidly overpriced for what are essentially bolt-on's-- realistically, it's some carbon fiber bits, a MP exhaust, an engine flash and a little gee-whiz in the suspension. And a blingy set of wheels and different color paint.

I'll admit that I like the roof (heat sink that it'll be on a summer day), and the adaptive suspension might be nice on "date night". But, that's about it.

I'm waiting for my M2C to be delivered and I think it's a far better value-- or at least as much as you can use that word for a ~$60k car. I just don't see an additional $25k of value in the CS.

I bought the M2C for me-- not as an investment or how well it'll hold value to collectors at some point in the future.

Just my 0.02.

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      01-30-2020, 09:34 AM   #1379
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flybigjet View Post
Completely disagree. Not a fan of the wheels (black OR gold), the center console is goofy. Not a fan of carbon for the sake of carbon (I have no interest in CF splitters or diffusers on my M2C), not a huge fan of the blue paint.

And? It's stupidly overpriced for what are essentially bolt-on's-- realistically, it's some carbon fiber bits, a MP exhaust, an engine flash and a little gee-whiz in the suspension. And a blingy set of wheels and different color paint.

I'll admit that I like the roof (heat sink that it'll be on a summer day), and the adaptive suspension might be nice on "date night". But, that's about it.

I'm waiting for my M2C to be delivered and I think it's a far better value-- or at least as much as you can use that word for a ~$60k car. I just don't see an additional $25k of value in the CS.

I bought the M2C for me-- not as an investment or how well it'll hold value to collectors at some point in the future.

Just my 0.02.

R.
This is a completely reasonable position.

But it's hard to quantify these subjective considerations, as they vary from person to person. As someone who has an OG M2, F80 ZCP, and 981 GTS, I can appreciate the iterative improvements and differentiation between the various versions of these great cars, and can also appreciate if it's worth the asking price for someone to spring for the M2CS.
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      01-30-2020, 09:44 AM   #1380
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It's worth what someone will pay.
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      01-30-2020, 10:12 AM   #1381
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flybigjet View Post
Completely disagree. Not a fan of the wheels (black OR gold), the center console is goofy. Not a fan of carbon for the sake of carbon (I have no interest in CF splitters or diffusers on my M2C), not a huge fan of the blue paint.

And? It's stupidly overpriced for what are essentially bolt-on's-- realistically, it's some carbon fiber bits, a MP exhaust, an engine flash and a little gee-whiz in the suspension. And a blingy set of wheels and different color paint.

I'll admit that I like the roof (heat sink that it'll be on a summer day), and the adaptive suspension might be nice on "date night". But, that's about it.

I'm waiting for my M2C to be delivered and I think it's a far better value-- or at least as much as you can use that word for a ~$60k car. I just don't see an additional $25k of value in the CS.

I bought the M2C for me-- not as an investment or how well it'll hold value to collectors at some point in the future.

Just my 0.02.

R.
How do you view the E46 CSL then in comparison? It was about 40,000 Euro more than its sister M3 when it came out 15 odd years ago.

Edit - source had i looked at originally had it wrong. looks like it was about GBP20,000 more, exchange rate of about $32,000 according to topspeed.com
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      01-30-2020, 10:25 AM   #1382
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And correct me if I am wrong, but the CS on the M3 and M4 were DCT only. 6mt cars tend to hold their value better, so I wouldn't be surprised to see very little depreciation on the M2CS.
Correct, only CS model car to get a manual option.
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      01-30-2020, 10:33 AM   #1383
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How do you view the E46 CSL then in comparison? It was about 40,000 Euro more than its sister M3 when it came out 15 odd years ago.
I felt the same way then as I do now.

Well, other than the CSL wheels.

*Those* I lusted over!

But, the CSL Replica group buy someone on Roadfly put together solved that problem.

However, there was a pretty significant difference between the M3 and the M3 CSL. I just don't see much difference between the M2C and the M2CS-- realistically, there's not much there that can't be simply bolted on.

Here's a fun read on the old CSL btw-- https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-re...194/bmw-m3-csl
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      01-30-2020, 10:40 AM   #1384
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Quote:
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I felt the same way then as I do now.
Then the position makes sense to me as it's consistent .


Quote:
Originally Posted by flybigjet View Post
However, there was a pretty significant difference between the M3 and the M3 CSL. I just don't see much difference between the M2C and the M2CS-- realistically, there's not much there that can't be simply bolted on.
This is the part I don't 100% agree with. I don't see much of a gap in the differences other than the CSL being genuinely lighter. Revised suspension, different seats, changed out body panels (except doors on CS), etc are all the same set of mods. Same deal on engine etc. So the CSL was genuinely lighter, but otherwise was not a greater set of modifications, and it was a larger total markup than the CS. So I only about 20% agree with that idea.
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      01-30-2020, 11:10 AM   #1385
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Then the position makes sense to me as it's consistent .



This is the part I don't 100% agree with. I don't see much of a gap in the differences other than the CSL being genuinely lighter. Revised suspension, different seats, changed out body panels (except doors on CS), etc are all the same set of mods. Same deal on engine etc. So the CSL was genuinely lighter, but otherwise was not a greater set of modifications, and it was a larger total markup than the CS. So I only about 20% agree with that idea.
The fact that the M2CS can be had in a manual adds great value for me. I agree with Poochie, it is the alpha M2. If it were like the F80CS with DCT only I would happily be going with an M2C instead.
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      01-30-2020, 11:28 AM   #1386
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdhotwn View Post
Then the position makes sense to me as it's consistent .



This is the part I don't 100% agree with. I don't see much of a gap in the differences other than the CSL being genuinely lighter. Revised suspension, different seats, changed out body panels (except doors on CS), etc are all the same set of mods. Same deal on engine etc. So the CSL was genuinely lighter, but otherwise was not a greater set of modifications, and it was a larger total markup than the CS. So I only about 20% agree with that idea.
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. It took a bit of digging since I hadn't thought about this in years, but here's a fairly comprehensive list of the differences between the e46 M3 and the e46 M3CSL. I think it's fairly significant-- and BMW obviously spent a lot of time (and engineering & production costs) to change a lot of things:

Differences between e46 M3 & e46 M3 CSL:

- Engine head (exhaust valve and intake/exhaust cams - longer duration, same lift) (17 hp difference in power over M2)
- Intake plenum (revised shape and in carbon fiber)
- Headers
- Catalytic converter (200 cell)
- X pipe, resonators (thinner material & slightly lighter)
- Rear muffler (slightly lighter)
- Different ECU
- Different SMG control unit program
- Pseudo Alpha N engine management (delete of MAF, but still runs a MAP sensor and air temp sensor)
- Different traction control system with M track mode on steering wheel
- Different ABS control program
- Shorter steering ratio (14.5:1 compared with 15.4:1 on M3)
- Front bumper (carbon fiber w/ intake port)
- Roof (carbon fiber)
- Rear diffuser (carbon fiber)
- Trunk lid
- Rolled rear fenders to accommodate wider rear rims
- Different wheels
- Suspension, springs, bump stops (lowered suspension)
- Different rear lower arms
- different front king pin/hub
- larger front sway bar
- larger rear sway bar
- larger front brakes/rotors
- larger rear brake/rotors
- Pilot Sport Cup tires
- Lighter rear glass
- Manual Recaro SPG Type front seats
- Lighter rear seats
- Honeycomb trunk floor cover (the infamous cardboard floor)
- Carbon fiber door panels & rear panel
- Carbon fiber center console
- Alcantara steering wheel
- Alcantara hand brake lever
- 4 rather than 6 airbags
- No interior sound deadening
- No hood heat shield
- Optional Radio and air conditioning
- Lighter battery
- different radiator
- Alcantara shift knob
- Different rear damper adapter
- Different floor covering


Taken in whole-- that's a fairly large list of significantly different parts, tuning, software, etc.-- in other words, a lot of mechanical differences.

Now, the M2C v. the M2CS appear to be largely cosmetic:

- Carbon fiber center console
- Carbon fiber rear trunk spoiler
- Carbon fiber roof
- Different door sills
- Carbon fiber door handle cover
- Alcantara interior trim
- M4CS seats
- Alcantara steering wheel
- MP exhaust
- Tuned engine (39 hp increase)
- Red brake calipers
- Carbon fiber hood
- Carbon fiber front splitter
- Carbon fiber rear diffuser
- Carbon fiber mirror caps
- Adaptive M suspension
- Different wheels

Other than the Adaptive Suspension, I honestly see the M2CS as more of a "Appearance Package" than a true performance upgrade. Yes, the parts will arguably add to the performance due to weight, but at the end, they're mostly for appearance.

As I said, we'll have to agree to disagree. I think the M2CS will be a fine car-- but it's not my cuppa as I'm not much into carbon fiber body trim, and (in my mind) I can't justify a $25k price leap from the "vanilla" M2C.

And? I can't get it in SOM, which would be a deal breaker!
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