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      05-22-2019, 11:05 AM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pray for Mojo View Post
OPs logs didn't look good at WOT. He had timing pull on 2 cylinders, often negative values. I wouldn't be tracking a car unless I had the fuel situation dialed in with proper octane and multiple clean logs. The fact he didn't even have a clean single or two gear pull to redline seems like he just flashed and drove the shit outta it. Our fuel in Western Canada is garbage, you need 1/3 can of Torco or Boostane just to run 91 OTS on the piss they sell us as 94. Even if you filled up in Washington State, the refinery feedstock is the same Oilsands heavy as Western Canada. It makes garbage gasoline and no one in government calls out the refiners.

All the rest of the downpipe nonsense is just the usual naysayers babbling on about nothing once someone has an issue. People get all high and mighty about emissions while enough natural gas is flared in the Permian everyday to power the state of Texas. Please.

This was probably super knock due to shitty fuel and being oblivious about it. The problem with BM3 and MHD, it's too accessible to people who don't do the research, test everything out and verify it's safe. Expensive mistake, but the dealer and BMW Canada will most definitely tell you to pound sand. Just tracking the car voids the warranty, nevermind the rest of it.

Next step should be a used motor from an M235i or an M2 that someone wrote off. Get a third party BMW shop to do the work. You will probably pay $15-20k CAD for the dealer to put a fresh one in from Germany.
Agreed. To help with this, I have the BM3 dashboard up and running on my phone when I’m on track showing IAT, engine/coolant temps, and Knock with flashing high limit alarms.

And, I always run 97+ octane on track to help prevent detonation.
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      05-22-2019, 12:30 PM   #112
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Gas makes a huge difference. It’s crazy what we call “premium” in the States. The cheapest gas in Germany is 95 e10. Than 95, 98 and 100 octane. There are even stations selling 110 race gas. All gas stations have 95 and 98.
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      05-22-2019, 01:14 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER View Post
Gas makes a huge difference. It’s crazy what we call “premium” in the States. The cheapest gas in Germany is 95 e10. Than 95, 98 and 100 octane. There are even stations selling 110 race gas. All gas stations have 95 and 98.
95 and 98 RON in Europe are equivalent to 91 and 93 in the US.
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      05-22-2019, 02:20 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by PackPride85 View Post
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Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER View Post
Gas makes a huge difference. It's crazy what we call "premium" in the States. The cheapest gas in Germany is 95 e10. Than 95, 98 and 100 octane. There are even stations selling 110 race gas. All gas stations have 95 and 98.
95 and 98 RON in Europe are equivalent to 91 and 93 in the US.
I have always thought that my shell gas has to be 93 AKI as it is regulated and tested by the state. Sure you could get a bad batch.

But, I have a theory that the 93 AKI map is actually developed from a 98 RON standard gas that PTF gets in Europe. The US gas with a different makeup of detergents and ethanol could have a lower RON with a higher MON like 97/89 or 96/90 which still gives you a 93 AKI but does not meet the assumption of the map. Almost every time I do a log with my setup (stg 2 93, fabspeed dp, Wagner comp 2) in the winter, I will get a knock detection.

There are only a few plausible explanations
-Those knocks would happen even on stock and that's how these cars are meant to run
-The map was written too aggressively
-The map was written perfectly for 98 RON and the shell 93 in Texas is not 98 RON

I can't seem to get a straight answer from PTF, but maybe it's time to have PTF create more assumptions on the maps they are providing so folks can better assess their individual risks.
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      05-22-2019, 02:33 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PackPride85 View Post
95 and 98 RON in Europe are equivalent to 91 and 93 in the US.
No it's not... At least not necessarily.

Quote:
Originally Posted by msmiljanic View Post
But, I have a theory that the 93 AKI map is actually developed from a 98 RON standard gas that PTF gets in Europe. The US gas with a different makeup of detergents and ethanol could have a lower RON with a higher MON like 97/89 or 96/90 which still gives you a 93 AKI but does not meet the assumption of the map.
Sort of this... MON is more important than RON, particularly for high compression and forced induction engines. I believe US gas has a higher RON and lower MON than really needed, but still resulting in being within the spec for 91 AKI, which is probably based on 89 AKI base with 10% Ethanol added to bring up the octane (here in CA).

When Halim took a look at my logs last year, he said it looked like I was using 87 AKI fuel based on his experience, and I don't doubt it! What he probably meant was it looked like something less than 95 RON European fuel, based on where he lives, with that being the minimum.

US fuel also has a lot more sulphur in it as far as I know. I think I read somewhere that this is one of the major reasons why oil degrades quicker in the US than other parts of the world, and why BMW still uses LL01FE oil here, but LL04FE everywhere else in the world.

US fuel may be cheap, but it really really sucks.

The whole Shell vs others argument also doesn't hold water... Shell may have better additives, which might clean your engine better, but it almost certainly uses the same base stock fuel, and octane isn't affected. I'm not saying it isn't better fuel (though I doubt it really is), but it's not better from an octane perspective.

Like dubzz24 suggested, adding just enough E85 to suppress knock can work, if you have access to it, but you'll run into HPFP limitations quickly so you can't run that much.

What surprises me is that this isn't a more publicised issue... Where is the Jalopnik article about it?
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      05-22-2019, 02:39 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pray for Mojo View Post
OPs logs didn't look good at WOT. He had timing pull on 2 cylinders, often negative values. I wouldn't be tracking a car unless I had the fuel situation dialed in with proper octane and multiple clean logs. The fact he didn't even have a clean single or two gear pull to redline seems like he just flashed and drove the shit outta it. Our fuel in Western Canada is garbage, you need 1/3 can of Torco or Boostane just to run 91 OTS on the piss they sell us as 94. Even if you filled up in Washington State, the refinery feedstock is the same Oilsands heavy as Western Canada. It makes garbage gasoline and no one in government calls out the refiners.

All the rest of the downpipe nonsense is just the usual naysayers babbling on about nothing once someone has an issue. People get all high and mighty about emissions while enough natural gas is flared in the Permian everyday to power the state of Texas. Please.

This was probably super knock due to shitty fuel and being oblivious about it. The problem with BM3 and MHD, it's too accessible to people who don't do the research, test everything out and verify it's safe. Expensive mistake, but the dealer and BMW Canada will most definitely tell you to pound sand. Just tracking the car voids the warranty, nevermind the rest of it.

Next step should be a used motor from an M235i or an M2 that someone wrote off. Get a third party BMW shop to do the work. You will probably pay $15-20k CAD for the dealer to put a fresh one in from Germany.
Not only did he flash and drive the shit out of it, and I cannot believe that 6 pages go by and not one person said it: There were two times the car went to limp mode. OP knew he had a tune and mods. OP checked the internet while at the track and couldn't figure out the issue on the internet, so OP decided to just send it again. I never would have let it limp the second time on a track, let alone go for a third! These cars store ghost codes that cannot be cleared other than replacing shit that stores them. BMW will know exactly what happened. Best case they offer a good will discount. Worst case, they tell OP to piss off.
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      05-22-2019, 02:52 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nezil View Post
No it's not... At least not necessarily.



Sort of this... MON is more important than RON, particularly for high compression and forced induction engines. I believe US gas has a higher RON and lower MON than really needed, but still resulting in being within the spec for 91 AKI, which is probably based on 89 AKI base with 10% Ethanol added to bring up the octane (here in CA).

When Halim took a look at my logs last year, he said it looked like I was using 87 AKI fuel based on his experience, and I don't doubt it! What he probably meant was it looked like something less than 95 RON European fuel, based on where he lives, with that being the minimum.

US fuel also has a lot more sulphur in it as far as I know. I think I read somewhere that this is one of the major reasons why oil degrades quicker in the US than other parts of the world, and why BMW still uses LL01FE oil here, but LL04FE everywhere else in the world.

US fuel may be cheap, but it really really sucks.

The whole Shell vs others argument also doesn't hold water... Shell may have better additives, which might clean your engine better, but it almost certainly uses the same base stock fuel, and octane isn't affected. I'm not saying it isn't better fuel (though I doubt it really is), but it's not better from an octane perspective.

Like dubzz24 suggested, adding just enough E85 to suppress knock can work, if you have access to it, but you'll run into HPFP limitations quickly so you can't run that much.

What surprises me is that this isn't a more publicised issue... Where is the Jalopnik article about it?
California has the same issue as here and northwest, refineries run heavy blend and smog emissions result in lower quality gas. You are completely correct about them juicing the RON numbers and MON being much lower than required. Our 94 has 102 RON, 87 MON, they call it Ultra94, it's pure trash.

Quote:
Originally Posted by McPurrs View Post
Not only did he flash and drive the shit out of it, and I cannot believe that 6 pages go by and not one person said it: There were two times the car went to limp mode. OP knew he had a tune and mods. OP checked the internet while at the track and couldn't figure out the issue on the internet, so OP decided to just send it again. I never would have let it limp the second time on a track, let alone go for a third! These cars store ghost codes that cannot be cleared other than replacing shit that stores them. BMW will know exactly what happened. Best case they offer a good will discount. Worst case, they tell OP to piss off.
There will be more examples of this, guys don't do the homework required to get everything running properly. I spent a good chunk of last summer sifting through logs and trying different fuel combos before I got good clean results. My car has never limped nor had super knock codes, but I could see negative timing and knock on logs that needed to be remedied. You'd think based on spending a decent amount of money on these cars and mods you would spend a few hours sorting everything out. Fuck it, full send.
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      05-22-2019, 03:30 PM   #118
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The tune didn't have any serious knocking issues when not at track.

In hindsight saying to be more prepare is always easy.

I did have super knocking as per my original post (forgot to put it in this one). I started this thread as more of getting suggestion/details of how others might have handled a similar case of a blown bmw engine.

To my understanding super knocking is different from regular knocking and it seems to be more random and related to the engine oils.

Fuel dilation seems to be more of a factor to super knocking in inducing piston hot spots.

What BMW uses for its engine oils could contribute to this. Whether it be snake oil or not it seems engine oil companies are trying for new standards to reduce this, IE Amsoil.

Of course, having lower IATs and better octane I'm sure helps in lowering the chances of pre-ignition but super knocking seems to be more piston hot spot induced.

Here's a long read if anyone is interested.

https://www.researchgate.net/publica...d_pre-ignition

Maybe it was already too late by the time I saw the codes for super knocking, who knows.

My honest opinion to this is that I really hope that the car is not this delicate and that I was unlucky with super knocking. We paid premium for performance after all.

And the possibility of a little bad gas and a slight tune makes it blow a piston?

I would feel it would be more unethical for BMW to roll out a car light that.
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      05-22-2019, 03:45 PM   #119
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Super knock/injector shutdown is usually related to bad gas or high IAT, the knock on logs is usually LSPI or is light enough that it doesn't throw a code. You don't have a clean log to show that you never had issues before the track day, unless you have more than the 3 that weren't even good usable logs. Where are the 20 second long logs from 3k to 7k to show the car was running good?

After the car limped twice didn't it seem like a good idea to shut it down and investigate? Every time your car was WOT on the posted logs it had negative timing, which indicates poor fuel quality. Throwing in dollar store octane boost won't protect anything. The car was operating outside it's manufactured parameters, I don't think blaming the engine or saying it wasn't stout enough is really fair or accurate. You didn't even change the oil prior to track day, OE intervals for fluids are based on daily driving the car as a grocery getter, not ripping down the track.
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      05-22-2019, 03:49 PM   #120
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And the possibility of a little bad gas and a slight tune makes it blow a piston?

I would feel it would be more unethical for BMW to roll out a car light that.
Wait, what? You tuned the engine outside of the stock specs and shit went wrong. How is that BMW being unethical here? I'm willing to bet if it was running stock it would have been fine. BMW runs the ever living crap out of the M2s at their Performance Centers (SC and CA). Those cars have THOUSANDS of miles that are exclusively on track. The one I drove in CA back in February had almost 6000 miles on it. They do break them in for the first 1200, so that's almost 5000 miles of exclusive track duty. These cars do lap after lap after lap during every M-school they run. I've never had one fail on me.
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      05-22-2019, 05:07 PM   #121
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M2 goes into limp mode from low fuel, heat or even misshifts. Obviously, it was my issue I did not take that the limp mode seriously. Never said I am not owning up to my mistake as per my current situation. Looking for sympathy for this online is...stupid and waste of my time. Again, all I am is looking for advice and experiences on handling the BMW engine matter.

So by the "outside of stock specs" logic you are saying that the parts and tune is severely out of high intensity running conditions of the car on pump gas on west coast?

To my understanding BM3 stage 1 91 is the most mild tune they have already. So I can't see the tune being all that aggressive. But who knows, I am not familiar with the details. They have the details of this already.

But based on this logic we should be telling these sellers and tuners to be more transparent and say that our car once push a bit outside of stock specs will have exponential increase in chances to blow?

Cuz I am already saying I could have handle the situation better so the only other factors left are the parts and tune added.

I ran the car with stock intercooler and stock tune last year and it seemed fine. So...

Super knock is increased with chances of pre-ignition which is IAT and octane related but the type of knock that is it is more random and piston hot spot related as per the reference. All I was saying is that I know knocking occurred and I am wanting to believe it was just unlucky and turn out to be super knock.

But in any case, if it make you feel better continue to bash away while I filter for useful information from this severely derailing thread.
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      05-22-2019, 05:15 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by orangeglim View Post
Wait, what? You tuned the engine outside of the stock specs and shit went wrong. How is that BMW being unethical here? I'm willing to bet if it was running stock it would have been fine. BMW runs the ever living crap out of the M2s at their Performance Centers (SC and CA). Those cars have THOUSANDS of miles that are exclusively on track. The one I drove in CA back in February had almost 6000 miles on it. They do break them in for the first 1200, so that's almost 5000 miles of exclusive track duty. These cars do lap after lap after lap during every M-school they run. I've never had one fail on me.
My wife and my self just completed a M-school we ran those cars M2c -M4 into the ground never missed a beat i have never beat on a car the way we beat on them hour after hour non stop running the piss out of them I have never ever held the gas pedal on the floor as much as we did in a street car .Then they sit and idle for who knows how long before we beat them again lol never had so much fun .I find it hard to believe that even a mildly modded car can have this type of failure that is why I asked about maybe their being an issue with where you fuel or the posted octane not being correct .
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      05-22-2019, 05:29 PM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msmiljanic View Post
I have always thought that my shell gas has to be 93 AKI as it is regulated and tested by the state. Sure you could get a bad batch.

But, I have a theory that the 93 AKI map is actually developed from a 98 RON standard gas that PTF gets in Europe. The US gas with a different makeup of detergents and ethanol could have a lower RON with a higher MON like 97/89 or 96/90 which still gives you a 93 AKI but does not meet the assumption of the map. Almost every time I do a log with my setup (stg 2 93, fabspeed dp, Wagner comp 2) in the winter, I will get a knock detection.

There are only a few plausible explanations
-Those knocks would happen even on stock and that's how these cars are meant to run
-The map was written too aggressively
-The map was written perfectly for 98 RON and the shell 93 in Texas is not 98 RON

I can't seem to get a straight answer from PTF, but maybe it's time to have PTF create more assumptions on the maps they are providing so folks can better assess their individual risks.
So should everyone in the US be running the 91 octane map?? I have yet to install mine but is there a noticeable difference between 91 and 93 stage 2?
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      05-22-2019, 05:33 PM   #124
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What tuning company Dinan said about the N55 M2 when it came out below. Which is the only tuner that actually has a stake in your vehicle if it breaks unlike BM3. Which one would you expect honesty from?

The M2 motor stock is already skirting the edge of its limits by you guys tuning it, which by nature removes all the safety checks and then proceed to beat the shit out of the engine, what exactly did you expect was eventually going to happen.

Not faulting the OP as this is an enthusiast forum but maybe a little common sense on the limitation of a particular machine next time.


NEW RELEASE: Dinan S1 F87 M2 -- Exhaust, Intake and Tune https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1296136
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      05-22-2019, 05:55 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dew343 View Post
My wife and my self just completed a M-school we ran those cars M2c -M4 into the ground never missed a beat i have never beat on a car the way we beat on them hour after hour non stop running the piss out of them I have never ever held the gas pedal on the floor as much as we did in a street car .Then they sit and idle for who knows how long before we beat them again lol never had so much fun .I find it hard to believe that even a mildly modded car can have this type of failure that is why I asked about maybe their being an issue with where you fuel or the posted octane not being correct .
92 WA state fuel with Lucas octane booster. How much actual octane is in this I would have no way to find out.

so lets assume it was bad gas or not gas that's still a few points off, than is there so little room in stage 1 91 for that then?


Separately, on the knock damaged pistons. Anyone who had experience with a damaged piston heads was there significant damage on the cylinder head or was it salvageable?
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      05-22-2019, 07:15 PM   #126
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Separately, on the knock damaged pistons. Anyone who had experience with a damaged piston heads was there significant damage on the cylinder head or was it salvageable?
Do you have any pictures of the damaged pistons? Is there any scoring on the bores? Can we even re-bore these blocks? I've not heard of that on newer engines but it was sort of a thing in the past.

I guess what I'm asking is... Is there any way the engine can be re-built rather than replaced?
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      05-22-2019, 08:22 PM   #127
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      05-23-2019, 07:42 AM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
What tuning company Dinan said about the N55 M2 when it came out below. Which is the only tuner that actually has a stake in your vehicle if it breaks unlike BM3. Which one would you expect honesty from?

The M2 motor stock is already skirting the edge of its limits by you guys tuning it, which by nature removes all the safety checks and then proceed to beat the shit out of the engine, what exactly did you expect was eventually going to happen.

Not faulting the OP as this is an enthusiast forum but maybe a little common sense on the limitation of a particular machine next time.


NEW RELEASE: Dinan S1 F87 M2 -- Exhaust, Intake and Tune https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1296136

Apparently they thought there was enough left on the table to handle a slightly larger turbo and associated power. Maybe they were trying to justify their lower power output????
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      05-23-2019, 07:58 AM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cecaa850 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
What tuning company Dinan said about the N55 M2 when it came out below. Which is the only tuner that actually has a stake in your vehicle if it breaks unlike BM3. Which one would you expect honesty from?

The M2 motor stock is already skirting the edge of its limits by you guys tuning it, which by nature removes all the safety checks and then proceed to beat the shit out of the engine, what exactly did you expect was eventually going to happen.

Not faulting the OP as this is an enthusiast forum but maybe a little common sense on the limitation of a particular machine next time.


NEW RELEASE: Dinan S1 F87 M2 -- Exhaust, Intake and Tune https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1296136

Apparently they thought there was enough left on the table to handle a slightly larger turbo and associated power. Maybe they were trying to justify their lower power output????

Their Stage 4 tune, bigger turbo and intercooler only nets another 46hp at the crank and that's peak not constant.

BMW head of M division (fired now) said the same exact thing when they released the M2 Competition, even the engineers that designed the gauges in the iDrive set it to only go up to 400hp max as a omen.

Is everyone exaggerating the lack of motor potential just to mess with you or maybe it's true..
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      05-23-2019, 08:06 AM   #130
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Is everyone exaggerating the lack of motor potential just to mess with you or maybe it's true..
It could certainly be true. I was just postulating.
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      05-23-2019, 08:40 AM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acl26 View Post
M2 goes into limp mode from low fuel, heat or even misshifts. Obviously, it was my issue I did not take that the limp mode seriously.

So by the "outside of stock specs" logic you are saying that the parts and tune is severely out of high intensity running conditions of the car on pump gas on west coast?

To my understanding BM3 stage 1 91 is the most mild tune they have already. So I can't see the tune being all that aggressive.
No offense to BM3 at all, but you put an off the shelf tune on a car to make more power, without supplemental mods to cool your IAT, so of course you will make more heat and increase the IAT. Your butt dyno felt great I am sure while on the street. The thing is, on the street you are not holding the engine there. Out of the box tunes are , to be blunt, fucking garbage if you do not put it on rollers and monitor/tweak it all.

On top of that, you ignored the car telling you 'hey man, I am NOT HAPPY!'

SEND IT

Well, now you want to know what to do. You can try BMW, but they likely will laugh. You can open your wallet and start buying parts. Once you rebuild this engine, I hope you get a proper tune for your mods/fuel in your area.

Also, change your oil before a track day... I can't believe you went balls out on a track with old oil. I can't believe a lot of this. I do feel for you, but there isn't much to be done here but learn, pay, and move on.
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      05-23-2019, 06:33 PM   #132
eeyang92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McPurrs View Post
No offense to BM3 at all, but you put an off the shelf tune on a car to make more power, without supplemental mods to cool your IAT, so of course you will make more heat and increase the IAT. Your butt dyno felt great I am sure while on the street. The thing is, on the street you are not holding the engine there. Out of the box tunes are , to be blunt, fucking garbage if you do not put it on rollers and monitor/tweak it all.

On top of that, you ignored the car telling you 'hey man, I am NOT HAPPY!'

SEND IT

Well, now you want to know what to do. You can try BMW, but they likely will laugh. You can open your wallet and start buying parts. Once you rebuild this engine, I hope you get a proper tune for your mods/fuel in your area.

Also, change your oil before a track day... I can't believe you went balls out on a track with old oil. I can't believe a lot of this. I do feel for you, but there isn't much to be done here but learn, pay, and move on.
Just wondering, how old is "old oil"? I've been to the track a few times, but it never seems to affect the estimated oil change service frequency. For example, I'll have 6k to go before my next oil change, go to HDPE, and afterwards the number will still be around 6k. My assumption is that the need-based algorithm is already taking into account on how the engine is being used (that's the whole point of it right?).
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