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M2 Technical Topics > N55 Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust / Bolt-ons / Tuning > A tale of two datalogs, and a question about timing... [New logs from BM3 91 Stage 2]

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      06-02-2018, 05:04 AM   #45
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Good to hear, I just installed the VRSF HD core street cooler last nite so looking forward to see its effect. I currently had about E25 in the car so as soon and I can get thru that i will switch back to stg 2 93 and start the logging over again to get numbers. I will do some morning when it is cooler but need to concentrate on the day runs cuz that is the temps when you usually will be running the car hard or on the dyno
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      06-02-2018, 11:28 PM   #46
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OK, so as promised, here are the logs I captured the night before last. The first few are with the stock map, then I switched to the OTS BM3 Stage 1 91 Octane map, both are with my shitty 91 pump gas. Modifications are Fabspeed Sport Cat / CSF FMIC / FTP Charge & Boost Pipes. Ambient temperature was low, about 50 F, because it was about 1am!

Stock Map:
91 Octane Stage 1 OTS map:And the charts, starting with the Stock map:




91 Octane Stage 1 OTS:




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      06-02-2018, 11:31 PM   #47
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I was hoping the CSF FMIC was going to work miracles on my timing corrections... it didn't.

I am truly impressed with its performance though, I've never seen IATs as low before, and they barely increase with a number of pull, though they weren't exactly back to back. With all of these runs though, IATs go down before they go up, and in every case, the IATs are lower at the end of the pull than they were at the start, probably due to the increased speed at that point.
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      06-03-2018, 01:36 AM   #48
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@nezil

I just took a short peek via my phone. The stock map looks a TON better. Lower IATs is definetly helping.

Judging by the boost curve overboost was active in that run. And timing had minimal correction. By minimal I mean less than 1 degree at worse.

The OTS however is definetly a bit aggressive in your car.

Given that I realized you have the Fab Speed sport cat, I’m wondering if it was installed properly. Any sort of medium to severe resonance can potentially throw off the knock sensors.

I think the safe bet now is to add about .5 gal to 1 gal of E85 to a full tank of your 91 and keep a close eye on your fuel trims. If the STFT is less than 25% rub the logs and see what happens. This is safe on 91.
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      06-03-2018, 04:17 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cookiesowns View Post
@nezil

I just took a short peek via my phone. The stock map looks a TON better. Lower IATs is definetly helping.

Judging by the boost curve overboost was active in that run. And timing had minimal correction. By minimal I mean less than 1 degree at worse.

The OTS however is definetly a bit aggressive in your car.
Agreed, though this is only Stage 1 with FBO!
Quote:
Given that I realized you have the Fab Speed Sport Cat, I’m wondering if it was installed properly. Any sort of medium to severe resonance can potentially throw off the knock sensors.
This is interesting... I'd love it if this were the case, because it would be an easy fix. I have noticed a slight drone at around 3,000rpm which I wasn't expecting just from a Sport Cat.

My Sport Cat is the new type with the cast top cone, and it was one of those that had an issue with the bracket needing to be bent. I'm taking it off next weekend to send back to Fabspeed, and I'll be putting the Stock Cat on in the interim. Capturing some logs with the Stock Cat would help to narrow down that problem.
Quote:
I think the safe bet now is to add about .5 gal to 1 gal of E85 to a full tank of your 91 and keep a close eye on your fuel trims. If the STFT is less than 25% run the logs and see what happens. This is safe on 91.
You're suggesting I do this on which map?

I have 5.66 gallons of E85 in a VP Racing can in the Garage just waiting for this... I'd like to try some Valero gas first, to see if it's better than the Chevron I'm currently running. I need to start keeping an accurate log of where I buy fuel, so that I can attempt to narrow down which stations have good fuel and which don't.

My car currently has 1 gallon of fuel according to BMW Connected, so it is time to fill up. Because I want to test different stations, I'm only going to put half a tank in, say 6 gallons. I think what I'll do is put 6 gallons of Valero in, take some logs with the 91 Stage 1 OTS map, and maybe the stock map, then add in 0.5 gallons of E85 and do the same. Does that sound like a reasonable plan?
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      06-03-2018, 07:02 PM   #50
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Nice... but reality here is way hotter I did pulls this morning heading to the mtns with stg 2 E30 map running E26 and ambient was 82 deg so starting IAT's were about 99-105. Coming back from the mtn run I was on stg 2 93 map ambient was 91...... so my pulls were starting in the 110-114 IAT range. I always seem to be running about 15 deg above ambient without boost before I start the pulls

E30 map pulls nice but I can only get it around where i live,....once I get in the mountains and need to fill up it is nowhere to be found so I really need to stick to 93 maps unless I am trolling around town. So far I have only seen 2 stations here in the Charlotte area that have E85....have yet to see it anywhere else I drive
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      06-03-2018, 07:05 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m2ruder View Post
Nice... but reality here is way hotter I did pulls this morning heading to the mtns with stg 2 E30 map running E26 and ambient was 82 deg so starting IAT's were about 99-105. Coming back from the mtn run I was on stg 2 93 map ambient was 91...... so my pulls were starting in the 110-114 IAT range. I always seem to be running about 15 deg above ambient without boost before I start the pulls
That's very true. It's hot here in the day as well, but it's much easier to get a 3rd gear pull at night!

You're testing the new VRSF FMIC aren't you?
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      06-03-2018, 07:43 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nezil View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by m2ruder View Post
Nice... but reality here is way hotter I did pulls this morning heading to the mtns with stg 2 E30 map running E26 and ambient was 82 deg so starting IAT's were about 99-105. Coming back from the mtn run I was on stg 2 93 map ambient was 91...... so my pulls were starting in the 110-114 IAT range. I always seem to be running about 15 deg above ambient without boost before I start the pulls
That's very true. It's hot here in the day as well, but it's much easier to get a 3rd gear pull at night!

You're testing the new VRSF FMIC aren't you?
Yes the 5in street HD core, I had the previous version street cooler.

I really want to put the stock cooler in just to see the temps are with the flash. It looks like it is a tube and fin core with Polly tanks.
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      06-03-2018, 11:50 PM   #53
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Here's my latest update.

I did, as I said I would earlier, fill up with 6 gallons of Valero fuel this time. Valero is the third refinery in the Bay Area, but there aren't too many gas stations. I did get a chance to chat with the station owner, who told me (for what it's worth) that their fuel only comes from the Valero refinery.

Ambient temperature was 20 ~ 24 C / 68 ~ 75 F for these runs. First 4 are the Stage 1 OTS 91 Octane BM3 map, second 5 are with the Stock map. These are all with the Valero 91 AKI fuel only... Let's see how we did!

Stage 1 91 Octane OTS:Stock Map:
And the charts, starting with the Stage 1 91 Octane OTS:







And the Stock Map:






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      06-03-2018, 11:58 PM   #54
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First off, you've got to love those IATs! Lower at the end of the run than at the start for every single run, and not once over 100F. I'm really happy with the performance of the CSF FMIC. Design, not so much, but that's another topic.

So those with experience reading logs (SeanWRT, cookiesowns, Halim@HCP, proTUNING Freaks), can you give me your thoughts? Is this Valero fuel any better than the Chevron in the previous logs?

My untrained eye would say that the fuel is slightly better, but not a lot. I say this because there are no 'knock detected' events in the Stage 1 logs, and the timing does look to be slightly more aligned than with the Chevron gas. Having said this, I'd been running the Stage 1 map for the last few days, so perhaps there was more chance for adaptation. The stock map runs this time were right after switching maps, with all adaptations lost.
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      06-04-2018, 12:07 AM   #55
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Every tune take advantage of octane margin left by stock tune, to some degree. As you don't have much of it and apparently have to increase octane for the tune, which in my opinion only make sense for drag racing or track event. I would suggest you stop trying to mix up fuel which can have inconsistent octane, to find the answer you already know. That's a waste of time, gas (money) and mileage (money). Just pay 300 for custom tuning to your octane and you'll be good.

Yes, you'll be 20~30whp down from those 93OCT OTS guys. But everyone has a reality to deal with. Some guys sport a huracan and give no sh*t about 50~60ps more or less. And some guy try stuff a bigger turbo onto N20 hoping to break 330whp, which is M2 stock. The rest almost forget the power rating from factory.

Be easy man!

BTW yes, the gas this time is a little better, not by much though. Tune to the gas that you have easy access to would be my recommendation.
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      06-04-2018, 12:25 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
Every tune take advantage of octane margin left by stock tune, to some degree. As you don't have much of it and apparently have to increase octane for the tune, which in my opinion only make sense for drag racing or track event. I would suggest you stop trying to mix up fuel which can have inconsistent octane, to find the answer you already know. That's a waste of time, gas (money) and mileage (money). Just pay 300 for custom tuning to your octane and you'll be good.
I know Halim is busy, but he gave the impression that there was basically nothing that could be done beyond the stock tune with the logs from the Chevron gas.

Is a custom tune going to give me anything over stock? I quite like the way the Stage 1 BM3 91 OTS 'feels' power wise, but I'm not sure I'd get to something like that with the current fuel, even with a custom map would I? I've been quoted more than $300 for a custom map by the way.

I also feel slightly cheated by BM3... It's not their fault that my gas is crap, but I think I've proven that it's not an isolated fuel station issue, and their OTS maps aren't suitable for me. Sure, the BM3 platform is superb, but part of what you pay for is an OTS map that whilst not optimised, there should be an OTS map suitable for any car. I even paid the extra for the OTS bundle, but basically can't use any of them. I did hear some talk of an ACN OTS set of maps, but there has been no public progress on that as far as I know.
Quote:
Yes, you'll be 20~30whp down from those 93OCT OTS guys. But everyone has a reality to deal with. Some guys sport a huracan and give no sh*t about 50~60ps more or less. And some guy try stuff a bigger turbo onto N20 hoping to break 330whp, which is M2 stock. The rest almost forget the power rating from factory.

Be easy man!
I get what you're saying Sean, I guess I'm just disappointed at having spent nearly $2,500 and not really seeing an awful lot of benefit from it. Sure, the Sport Cat sounds nice (though I have issues with that and am having to send it back to be fixed) and the FMIC lowered my IATs so much that I'll rarely have heat soak, but if you compare the performance increase that most people have got for that money, I've been short changed. I selected all the most well rated components and software, and I'm having bad luck I guess.
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      06-04-2018, 12:32 AM   #57
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@Nezil Stock tune runs a lot richer and slight less boost which is why octane holds up better. OTS lean out to low 12s, the N55 golden rule, for more power and that's what proper 91 can handle.

You can't really expect any company has an OTS for aki87-88...

A custom tune can tweak AFR down to save your timing. But there is a balance point in such tradeoff. It's not easy to know if it's worth it power wise. N55 power is very timing sensitive, and is very AFR sensitive too.

Your car with your gas is very difficult to tune is what's happening.
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      06-04-2018, 03:39 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nezil View Post
Agreed, though this is only Stage 1 with FBO!

This is interesting... I'd love it if this were the case, because it would be an easy fix. I have noticed a slight drone at around 3,000rpm which I wasn't expecting just from a Sport Cat.

My Sport Cat is the new type with the cast top cone, and it was one of those that had an issue with the bracket needing to be bent. I'm taking it off next weekend to send back to Fabspeed, and I'll be putting the Stock Cat on in the interim. Capturing some logs with the Stock Cat would help to narrow down that problem.

You're suggesting I do this on which map?

I have 5.66 gallons of E85 in a VP Racing can in the Garage just waiting for this... I'd like to try some Valero gas first, to see if it's better than the Chevron I'm currently running. I need to start keeping an accurate log of where I buy fuel, so that I can attempt to narrow down which stations have good fuel and which don't.

My car currently has 1 gallon of fuel according to BMW Connected, so it is time to fill up. Because I want to test different stations, I'm only going to put half a tank in, say 6 gallons. I think what I'll do is put 6 gallons of Valero in, take some logs with the 91 Stage 1 OTS map, and maybe the stock map, then add in 0.5 gallons of E85 and do the same. Does that sound like a reasonable plan?
Yeah, if you're taking it off anyway, might as well give it a try. With FMIC, stage 1 is perfectly save to run on stock DP. I personally run stage 2 because I don't really care for the cat all that much.

You can do this on the OTS Stage 1.

Add about .5 gallons to basically a very near full tank of 91. Monitor your STFT as you drive. Once the STFT's start varying more than 10% the ethanol is beggining to blend and do some logs then. If the trims go over +-30% ( .3 on BM3 ) You might have to run the E30 map for a bit until you burn your fuel over. I'd say start with .2gallons to start on 10gallons.
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      06-04-2018, 12:49 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nezil View Post

I also feel slightly cheated by BM3...
Cheated by CA gas, unless it's somehow the car.

I don't have any way to log gas quality in my stock car, except bimmerlink, but no one can tell me how to use it to check gas quality.
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      06-04-2018, 01:10 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by akkando View Post
Cheated by CA gas, unless it's somehow the car.

I don't have any way to log gas quality in my stock car, except bimmerlink, but no one can tell me how to use it to check gas quality.
Thanks for trying to help / compare. I don't have an iPhone or Bimmerlink I'm afraid so I can't help you.
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      06-04-2018, 04:34 PM   #61
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OK so I installed the new version (HD core) VRSF 5in street IC and went and did some logs this weekend. 3-4 pulls on the remaining E26 in the tank & stg 2 E30 then filled up with 93 and drove thru that tank of gas then filled up again and did some stg 2 93 pulls. Unfortunately i accidentally deleted the 3,4,5 independent 93 pulls so just have the 3/4/5/6 shift pulls.
the pics in this thread.

Order of pics are:

E26
outside temps were 82 deg
3rd, 4th, 5th, then a 3/4/5/6 shift

93 oct
outside temps were 93 deg
3/4/5 shift

Temp rise at end of pulls was

E26
3rd +0, same as start
4th +13.5
5th +25.7
3/4/5/6 shifts +31.1

93 oct
3/4/5 shifts +31.1

So based on the temp data of the shifting logs either E26 or 93 oct the temp rise was the same +31.1 even though the outside air temps were 11 deg higher for the 93 oct pull and the starting IAT was 6deg higher the end result was the same. Also none of the pulls had any registered knock
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Last edited by horsepower_and_hounds; 06-04-2018 at 04:48 PM..
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      06-04-2018, 07:12 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m2ruder View Post
OK so I installed the new version (HD core) VRSF 5in street IC and went and did some logs this weekend. 3-4 pulls on the remaining E26 in the tank & stg 2 E30 then filled up with 93 and drove thru that tank of gas then filled up again and did some stg 2 93 pulls. Unfortunately i accidentally deleted the 3,4,5 independent 93 pulls so just have the 3/4/5/6 shift pulls.
the pics in this thread.

Order of pics are:

E26
outside temps were 82 deg
3rd, 4th, 5th, then a 3/4/5/6 shift

93 oct
outside temps were 93 deg
3/4/5 shift

Temp rise at end of pulls was

E26
3rd +0, same as start
4th +13.5
5th +25.7
3/4/5/6 shifts +31.1

93 oct
3/4/5 shifts +31.1

So based on the temp data of the shifting logs either E26 or 93 oct the temp rise was the same +31.1 even though the outside air temps were 11 deg higher for the 93 oct pull and the starting IAT was 6deg higher the end result was the same. Also none of the pulls had any registered knock
Looks a lot better than your older VRSF that was really not cutting it for you. I'm not sure there is any way I could do a 3/4/5 shift log, you must really be flying by the end of 5th!

Can you post the links to your logs; I'd like to take a look at the timing, which you've hidden in your charts.
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      06-04-2018, 07:36 PM   #63
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Neil,
I was not hiding just trying to uncluttered toe log graphs. Speed prolly around 140 give or take

Stg 2 E30 (mix is about E26)
independent 3rd, 4th, 5th then a 3/4/5/6 shift log

http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5b13fbcfd10b4372024a85aa
http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5b13fc21d10b4372024a85ac
http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5b13fc60d10b4372024a85ae
http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5b13fce3d10b4372024a85b0


Stg 2 93
3/4/5/ shift log

http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5b14458ed10b4372024a865f
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      06-04-2018, 07:40 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m2ruder View Post
Neil,
I was not hiding just trying to uncluttered toe log graphs. Speed prolly around 140 give or take
Thanks for the links. I didn't think you were hiding anything. Your post was focussed on IATs, so I get why you didn't put it there.

Your timing looks so clean, and the HPFP seems to be holding up pretty well. I get the sense that the E30 map at least, is probably limited by the HPFP. I wonder how much more E85 you could run, and consequently how much more timing and boost with the TTFS upgraded pump!
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      06-04-2018, 07:49 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cookiesowns View Post
You can do this on the OTS Stage 1.

Add about .5 gallons to basically a very near full tank of 91. Monitor your STFT as you drive. Once the STFT's start varying more than 10% the ethanol is beggining to blend and do some logs then. If the trims go over +-30% ( .3 on BM3 ) You might have to run the E30 map for a bit until you burn your fuel over. I'd say start with .2gallons to start on 10gallons.
Thanks for this advice. As I said, I do have 6 gallons of E85 waiting at home so I'll try this as soon as I'm back. I'm in Texas for a couple of days for work (great gas, at low prices, but no car here!), and will be able to start this testing on Wednesday I'd have thought.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
Every tune take advantage of octane margin left by stock tune, to some degree. As you don't have much of it and apparently have to increase octane for the tune, which in my opinion only make sense for drag racing or track event. I would suggest you stop trying to mix up fuel which can have inconsistent octane, to find the answer you already know.
I absolutely agree with you that mixing large quantities of gas is going to be a waste of time and effort. It's unsustainable as well because it's a real pain to keep Race gas at home and remember to add some before filling up, and totally impossible if travelling.

Having said that, Boostane and E85 are still options that may be less inconvenient. E85 is available 10 minutes from my work, so it's not out of the way too much, and at the quantities that cookiesowns is suggesting, aren't massive either. The E30 map is interesting, but that much E85 might be inconvenient every fill up.

I'd rather not have to do any of this, but my situation (car & fuel combination) are what they are, as you said.
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2018 ///M2 LCI, LBB, 6MT...

Current Performance Mods:
CSF FMIC, ER CP, Fabspeed Cat, Aquamist WMI, GFB DV+, NGK 97506, BM3 (Stage 2 93 OTS), CDV delete, UCP, M2C/M3/M4 Strut Brace, M3/M4 Reinforcement Rings
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      06-04-2018, 07:51 PM   #66
Nezil
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Drives: LCI '18 6MT M2
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: San Francisco Bay Area

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Oh, by the way... is it possible that lower temp spark plugs might help my situation? I know the NGK SILZKBR8D8S (97506) plugs are recommended by ProTuningFreaks, but they don't seem to be a popular mod on this forum.
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2018 ///M2 LCI, LBB, 6MT...

Current Performance Mods:
CSF FMIC, ER CP, Fabspeed Cat, Aquamist WMI, GFB DV+, NGK 97506, BM3 (Stage 2 93 OTS), CDV delete, UCP, M2C/M3/M4 Strut Brace, M3/M4 Reinforcement Rings
Appreciate 0
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