[///AVM]

Originally Posted by LBbluem2

And with the sound:

the longer gears add to the grunt of the engine

LB

I think you know, but my responses are intended as nothing more than good conversation and, perhaps, a mild debate . . .

The topic you raise of longer gearing is an interesting one to me. Forever and a day, one of the biggest criticisms of the Porsche MT - particularly the GT variants - is that 2nd and 3rd gearing is too long. I have never understood this complaint, particularly given they are intended as track-focused vehicles.

The fact that most never actually track their GT Porsche vehicles is probably the problem in and of itself. Drivers get frustrated lugging their naturally aspirated engines 'around town' in 2nd and 3rd gears. I would too.

I am just the opposite. I happen to live in a driving (rural) environment where I can wring the snot out of my 718 GTS; I live above 4K RPMs and rarely ever make it out of 2nd and 3rd gears. So, with PDK manual mode I get the full 'grunt' you reference. . . among other performance benefits.

The GT4 MT definitely has longer gearing than the GTS PDK manual mode, but the difference is negligible when each is wrung out . . . what is better appreciated are different characteristics of the twin turbo vs naturally aspirated engines, but that is another entirely different thread that is a never ending debate on the Porsche forums.

All I can say is that, between the GT4 (NA MT) and GTS (Turbo PDK), I got the one I wanted . . . when the 718 GTS 4.0 becomes available with PDK, well that might be MY sweet-spot? Access to low-end torque is irrelevant if you live in the high-end, and I do prefer the wail over the whine. Or, as you put it, I prefer the 'grunt' of a wrung out NA engine over that of a turbo.

///AVM

Edit: Apologies for my reference to Porsche vehicles and PDK on a BMW forum. My assumption is that statements are relevant and apply to the DCT, and not intended to suggest the PDK is better or worse than the DCT.

[Bumpinjeep]

Dude, I saw this picture and didn't read your comment. I originally thought this was something you stick in your cup holder to pretend you're shifting gears in your automatic transmission. Hilarious!

Originally Posted by Moflow

[xxyion]

A lot of people talk about "Performance" as a reason to choose the DCT over the MT. However Performance is so subjective.

How many of us are trying to actually hit the 0-60 in 4.2 seconds? Honestly...very few of us. Most of us take these out to go to the grocery store or to enjoy some nice twisties. In either scenario you arent trying to go as fast and shift as fast as possible. Hell depending on the kind of backroad you drive, in both types, you're just staying in 3rd or 4th gear the entire time without even shifting.

I would think that even buying a DCT boils down to emotion. These cars are quick, and making the car feel quick can be just as easy as mashing your foot on the throttle and letting it kick you back into your seat while you hold on for dear life. Theres a lot of enjoyment in that. I find i sometimes drive slower in my MT largley because i also have to worry about shifting. I have yet to actually really push this car past 50% throttle (mostly cuz i'm not at break-in yet).

[Moflow]

Originally Posted by Bumpinjeep

Dude, I saw this picture and didn't read your comment. I originally thought this was something you stick in your cup holder to pretend you're shifting gears in your automatic transmission. Hilarious!

You know how it is. After years and years of hard use from the ol' girl, it was finally time to trade up.

[Bumpinjeep]

Here you go.

[Poochie]

Watching videos like the one below confirms that the auto or DCT will grow old on me fast.

The manual might not be the quickest shifting box but it's like sex and masterbating; yea both will get you there but one of them just feels right..

Once again, I'm sure the DCT has its charms and works for a lot of you guys, who maybe have to share your car with someone who doesn't drive stick or have their own laundry list of personal reasons for going with the DCT, that's understandable but as long they offer a third pedal option for the M2 and you can swing it, I say check that box.

[Davil]

Originally Posted by Poochie

Watching videos like the one below confirms that the auto or DCT will grow old on me fast.

The manual might not be the quickest shifting box but it's like sex and masterbating; yea both will get you there but one of them just feels right..

Once again, I'm sure the DCT has its charms and works for a lot of you guys, who maybe have to share your car with someone who doesn't drive stick or have their own laundry list of personal reasons for going with the DCT, that's understandable but as long they offer a third pedal option for the M2 and you can swing it, I say check that.

DCT provides the best car control for people that grew up driving manual from day 1. To be able to get the most from the DCT this is a pre-requisite. If you grew up driving an auto or got your licence driving an auto you won't get it. You'll probably hate it. Americans (generally) are fairly new to manual transmissions and see the art of changing gears as a skill in itself as manual cars were so rare and not part of the culture. I think this is because it is learnt in later life rather than from day 1. There is minimal skill in the act of changing gears. If you can pat your head and rub your stomach at the same time you are over qualified. But I get some people see this as a challenge. Maybe patting your head and masturbating if that's your skill set?

The reason I have always hated automatics is that they make it much harder to control the car. The DCT to me was a revelation. Being able to be in the right gear at the right time so quickly is why it is great. You get better car control. The modern day training wheels nanny manuals are just marketing. That's the cold hard truth.

If you want a manual, get a proper one. This e46 CSL conversion looks amazing. The SMG was a well known turd avoided like the plague when it came out. This on the other hand is the goods. A _real_ old school manual in fitting with its era. Love it!

[Moflow]

Originally Posted by Davil

I think this is because it is learnt in later life rather than from day 1. There is minimal skill in the act of changing gears. If you can pat your head and rub your stomach at the same time you are over qualified. But I get some people see this as a challenge. Maybe patting your head and masturbating if that's your skill set?

I dunno, I’ve never owned an automatic but I still find that a perfectly rev matched, double clutch downshift isn’t something I get right 100 percent of the time. Maybe I suck? I mean, I get it right enough on my race car to keep me from spinning, but it still isn’t perfect every time and I enjoy chasing that dragon. Why am I double clutching my race car? Because it’s fun. Also the reason I have a race car.

Anyhow....you guys hear about Lewis Hamilton and his insistence that the pagani he ordered come with three pedals? I had no idea that dude was American!

[BigKutta]

Originally Posted by Davil

DCT provides the best car control for people that grew up driving manual from day 1. To be able to get the most from the DCT this is a pre-requisite. If you grew up driving an auto or got your licence driving an auto you won't get it. You'll probably hate it. Americans (generally) are fairly new to manual transmissions and see the art of changing gears as a skill in itself as manual cars were so rare and not part of the culture. I think this is because it is learnt in later life rather than from day 1. There is minimal skill in the act of changing gears. If you can pat your head and rub your stomach at the same time you are over qualified. But I get some people see this as a challenge. Maybe patting your head and masturbating if that's your skill set?

The reason I have always hated automatics is that they make it much harder to control the car. The DCT to me was a revelation. Being able to be in the right gear at the right time so quickly is why it is great. You get better car control. The modern day training wheels nanny manuals are just marketing. That's the cold hard truth.

Gosh, I was thinking the same thing the other when driving my car and thinking about the comments on these boards about how your lose control of power band and shift point etc with the DCT. What utter rubbish. Like you said, if you grew up driving a manual, the DCT is just like a manual without the third pedal, nothing less, maybe more. Ill post some pic of cars I learned to drive in, there were no autos when I grew up (and no I'm not a senior or even close...just where I grew up). You wanna talk about notchy shifters, short (not) throws, heal/toe, rev matching and keeping these 500cc engine cars running on inclines, preventing money shifts, knowing which gear you are in based on feel and engine sound? Haha, can do that crap in my sleep.
Yes, these are cars, not trucks below:

[newcar55]

We can debate this all day but the truth is you have to test drive both to get an idea. I have a manual in my current car and I was set on getting an M2 manual until I drove it. Hated the feel of the shifter. On the other hand, I loved the DCT. Someone else may feel completely opposite.

I just think we should stop the condescension on both sides

[Moflow]

Originally Posted by newcar55

I just think we should stop the condescension on both sides

Look buddy, if I didn't want to be a condescending prick, i wouldn't have bought an M car.

(i'm kidding. Your advice is excellent)

[Poochie]

Originally Posted by newcar55

We can debate this all day but the truth is you have to test drive both to get an idea. I have a manual in my current car and I was set on getting an M2 manual until I drove it. Hated the feel of the shifter. On the other hand, I loved the DCT. Someone else may feel completely opposite.

I just think we should stop the condescension on both sides

No one is condescending anyone else; someone asked a question and others gave their opinion.. The end.

I just found out one of my male friends like fingers up his butt, during sex, from his angry girlfriend. I know, based on the graphic description, it's not my thing but I respect and accept his decision, same those that are into a DCT.

I just like that big, black stick shift over paddles..

[Davil]

Originally Posted by Poochie

1). I just found out one of my male friends like fingers up his butt, during sex, from his angry girlfriend. I know, based on the graphic description, it's not my thing but I respect and accept his decision, same those that are into a DCT.

2). I just like that big, black stick shift over paddles..

1). But does he pat his head at the same time? 🤪

2). Us DCT guys have both. It's fun to be able to have the option to go both ways when we need.

It's all fun. Best enjoy it before the era ends. Then it's a very simple argument. Manual or Auto. My choice will be manual.

[F87EVO]

Just drive what makes you smile.Both boxes are fine! Personally , had the OG M2 with a DCT and i enjoy it a lot , one of the best automated manuals ! After driving two years with it , i found it a bit boring in some ways . Ordered the M2CS with 6mt . Buuut since , i only drive the car at weekends and not every weekend , i dont care about traffic etc. I just want to enjoy the car and get as most of the involvment i can from it. I think , i wont regret it moving from DCT to 6MT.

[Karmic Man]

Shit, this 6MT vs DCT thing has been beaten so many times that the horse is back from the dead

All right, I will beat it one more time, 6MT for me as I need the H pattern shifter plus the clutch to feel energised and alive and not stuck in some nightmarish inception limbo where the car does everything for me and I am just a passenger

[F87EVO]

Originally Posted by Karmic Man

Shit, this 6MT vs DCT thing has been beaten so many times that the horse is back from the dead

All right, I will beat it one more time, 6MT for me as I need the H pattern shifter plus the clutch to feel energised and alive and not stuck in some nightmarish inception limbo where the car does everything for me and I am just a passenger

hahahahah !
So true mate!...

[xxyion]

Originally Posted by Davil

DCT provides the best car control for people that grew up driving manual from day 1. To be able to get the most from the DCT this is a pre-requisite. If you grew up driving an auto or got your licence driving an auto you won't get it. You'll probably hate it. Americans (generally) are fairly new to manual transmissions and see the art of changing gears as a skill in itself as manual cars were so rare and not part of the culture. I think this is because it is learnt in later life rather than from day 1. There is minimal skill in the act of changing gears. If you can pat your head and rub your stomach at the same time you are over qualified. But I get some people see this as a challenge. Maybe patting your head and masturbating if that's your skill set?

The reason I have always hated automatics is that they make it much harder to control the car. The DCT to me was a revelation. Being able to be in the right gear at the right time so quickly is why it is great. You get better car control. The modern day training wheels nanny manuals are just marketing. That's the cold hard truth.

If you want a manual, get a proper one. This e46 CSL conversion looks amazing. The SMG was a well known turd avoided like the plague when it came out. This on the other hand is the goods. A _real_ old school manual in fitting with its era. Love it!

I dont know i think this is an unfair judgment in many ways. A lot of the people who own these cars arent people in their early 20s. Most of us grew up with Manual transmissions, because they were more common back all the way up to the mid 90s. I consider myself one of the younger in this group of people and even then the family car i grew up with was a 1980's Honda Accord, Manual. My first car was a 1985 Honda Prelude in Manual, and its the car i learned to drive on. This was in 2002. Every car i've owned since then has been a Manual except for one.

Personally, i dont feel like a DCT is as intuitive or "built for people who grew up learning manual". Now it could be just company based, but the DCT i drive regularly is my girlfriends Golf GTI. The DSG transmission in there is lightning quick in Sport mode and it does everything you guys talk about. TO me it still feels like any other Automatic transmission. Theres nothing manual about it. My 230i with Paddle shifters, felt literally the same way. And i think that car uses the ZF transmission.


In the end i think its just up to the person. I personally dont ever think an Auto trans, being a DCT or not will ever be as engaging as a Manual transmission. I havnt driven a Porsche PDK yet so who knows maybe my mind will change once my girlfriend gets her 911, but for now all my cars are MT.

Theres also a chance i've been spoiled with just very good transmissions.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by Karmic Man

Shit, this 6MT vs DCT thing has been beaten so many times that the horse is back from the dead

All right, I will beat it one more time, 6MT for me as I need the H pattern shifter plus the clutch to feel energised and alive and not stuck in some nightmarish inception limbo where the car does everything for me and I am just a passenger

+1

If I had a DCT I would've likely sold my m2 and bought a manual one. I cannot stand automatics, or paddle shift cars. To me I enjoy the connection of driving manual so much I even like stop and go traffic. The only time I hate driving manual is after a hard leg day, or when the car has a crazy clutch like in my old sti where it was insanely heavy and bit so hard it was impossible to drive smooth or not stall often.

[Sarg33]

Originally Posted by Davil

Americans (generally) are fairly new to manual transmissions and see the art of changing gears as a skill in itself as manual cars were so rare and not part of the culture.

I highly disagree with the above statement. Americans started with manual transmission cars just like the rest of the world and have slowly shifted (pun intended) to slush-boxes just like the rest of the world. The manual transmission is nothing "new" to Americans, they are just becoming very rare.

[Al Bundy's Dodge]

All I know is I can't be friends with DCT drivers and their fear of commitment. It's too unnerving. How do I know I won't one day be cast aside for another individual that brings a slightly different experience?

[BigKutta]

Originally Posted by Sarg33

I highly disagree with the above statement. Americans started with manual transmission cars just like the rest of the world and have slowly shifted (pun intended) to slush-boxes just like the rest of the world. The manual transmission is nothing "new" to Americans, they are just becoming very rare.

I think Davil's point is that if driving a manual is/was second nature to you, you can make the DCT behave like a true manual and get a similar experience, sans pushing the clutch pedal. That's all

[PLF69]

If you've always drove manual, only tried some auto or DCT cars a few times and never lived with them for a while it's hard to really understand the differences.

There is a huge difference in behavior between a torque converted auto and a double clutch automated manual transmission. The former IS really a manual transmission that as it's shifting electronically operated. It's simple like that and totally different versus the first one.

They may feel similar because the new double clutch are much more refined then there first single clutch version but when you spend a long time with them you realise they are much closer related to a classic clutch operated manual.