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      02-09-2019, 11:27 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xcusem3 View Post
Iconic car*

The M2 is and never will be iconic, there's nothing unique about the car, they're essentially parts bin specials from bmw m and they made are still making them in the thousands per month...
I don’t understand thus sentiment at all.

The 1M and Z3M (if I recall correctly) were also essentially “parts bin” cars, and also two of the most beloved and iconic M cars ever made. I would also put the M2/M2C in that category because they’re spiritual successors to the older, smaller M3s.

Low production numbers and exclusivity don’t determine what is iconic.
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      02-10-2019, 07:56 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
I don’t understand thus sentiment at all.

The 1M and Z3M (if I recall correctly) were also essentially “parts bin” cars, and also two of the most beloved and iconic M cars ever made. I would also put the M2/M2C in that category because they’re spiritual successors to the older, smaller M3s.

Low production numbers and exclusivity don’t determine what is iconic.
That's also my opinion.
You can differentiate between value and numbers but that says nothing about the historical status. Look at 3.0 CS(L) or 2002. Every true Bimmer fan is excited when seeing them because they are iconic. The only difference to the M1 is they were cheaper. I guess the M2 Competition will also get that status. Also because it belongs most likely to one of the last (pure) gasoline Bimmer generations. And because it's a stunning beauty!
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      02-10-2019, 07:58 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xcusem3 View Post
Iconic car*

The M2 is and never will be iconic, there's nothing unique about the car, they're essentially parts bin specials from bmw m and they made are still making them in the thousands per month...
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
I don’t understand thus sentiment at all.

The 1M and Z3M (if I recall correctly) were also essentially “parts bin” cars, and also two of the most beloved and iconic M cars ever made. I would also put the M2/M2C in that category because they’re spiritual successors to the older, smaller M3s.

Low production numbers and exclusivity don’t determine what is iconic.
I agree that the term iconic gets used too much when describing various cars. The M1 and every CSL model (thus far) are iconic, not so much the M2/1M/M4 GTS, and certainly not the base E9x M3, regardless of the S65.

But to say there's nothing unique about the M2 is ridiculous. How many other small, RWD, MT, moderately high HP with standard LSD cars are on the market?
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      02-10-2019, 08:02 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigT View Post
The only difference to the M1 is they were cheaper.
We know what you mean but for clarification, it's the 1M.
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      02-11-2019, 07:16 AM   #49
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Only if the CSL was MT...
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      02-11-2019, 07:47 AM   #50
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Only if the CSL was MT...
See, I think that's a philosophical thing - if CSL is intended to be the absolute best BMW can do, then you're not going to see MT options (I wouldn't think).

For example, you can get a GT3 in a manual, but not the GT2 RS or GT3 RS (I think) - which makes sense. The ultimate versions of those cars are designed to achieve the best possible lap times...but Porsche was smart enough to give the GT3 a manual.

I would like to see a CS or CSL in MT trim, just for the option for those who want it, but BMW might have decided that the Competition is the highest level they will offer a MT...time will tell.
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      02-11-2019, 08:22 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stage IV View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by xcusem3 View Post
Iconic car*

The M2 is and never will be iconic, there's nothing unique about the car, they're essentially parts bin specials from bmw m and they made are still making them in the thousands per month...
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
I don't understand thus sentiment at all.

The 1M and Z3M (if I recall correctly) were also essentially "parts bin" cars, and also two of the most beloved and iconic M cars ever made. I would also put the M2/M2C in that category because they're spiritual successors to the older, smaller M3s.

Low production numbers and exclusivity don't determine what is iconic.
I agree that the term iconic gets used too much when describing various cars. The M1 and every CSL model (thus far) are iconic, not so much the M2/1M/M4 GTS, and certainly not the base E9x M3, regardless of the S65.

But to say there's nothing unique about the M2 is ridiculous. How many other small, RWD, MT, moderately high HP with standard LSD cars are on the market?
That formula has been in BMW M cars for decades now... high HP, rwd, manual with an LSD from the factory...? That lineage goes all the way back to the e36 my friend. Nothing unique about the M2 at all, sorry.
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      02-11-2019, 10:35 AM   #52
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Top Gear - CSL Review - Jeremy Clarkson

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      02-11-2019, 10:37 AM   #53
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BMW M3 E46 - All you need to know

https://www.bmw-m.com/en/topics/maga...-portraet.html

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      02-11-2019, 11:18 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xcusem3 View Post
That formula has been in BMW M cars for decades now... high HP, rwd, manual with an LSD from the factory...? That lineage goes all the way back to the e36 my friend. Nothing unique about the M2 at all, sorry.
I think that he was referring to other available offerings in the current automobile market place that are in the price range of the M2C.
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      02-11-2019, 12:12 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
See, I think that's a philosophical thing - if CSL is intended to be the absolute best BMW can do, then you're not going to see MT options (I wouldn't think).

For example, you can get a GT3 in a manual, but not the GT2 RS or GT3 RS (I think) - which makes sense. The ultimate versions of those cars are designed to achieve the best possible lap times...but Porsche was smart enough to give the GT3 a manual.

I would like to see a CS or CSL in MT trim, just for the option for those who want it, but BMW might have decided that the Competition is the highest level they will offer a MT...time will tell.
I understand the logic of giving the top version of their line up the best mechanics. But for CSL, it was never in a perfect world where the SMG transmission worked perfectly like Porsche's DSG. Bottom line, SMG sucks and it sucks to see such a gem with shitty transmission.
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      02-12-2019, 07:49 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stage IV View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by GOLFFRR View Post
Ive never driven a CSL but everyone who has seems to say it is amazing and you dont see much to any negative things ever said about it which shows how special of a car it was
The SMG transmission is its apparent downfall. By all other accounts, the car is near perfect. Unfortunately, that problem seems to be glaring. A 6MT example might have been worth more today than its original price.
SMG is great once you've learned to use it, shifts in 65 ms at highest setting, pdk is 200, and ZF 300, far more fun to use than the fat little piggy they taped into the new cars know as the ZF8. Oink oink.
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      02-12-2019, 08:30 AM   #57
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I have SMG III, so I can't speak for SMG II but I had ridden in it back in the day.

SMGII could do this thing where you'd jerk back and forth at idle speed, really violent and pathetic looking.

The SMG also isn't smooth shifting like ZF8. In fact BMW has attached the giant slush box to the ZF8 solely to ensure the idle at stop lights was smooth.

Anyone complaining about SMG should first consider that. That's pretty pathetic, BMW obviously has to do what sells, and so many normal idiots in leases cars demanded smooth idles that you have all that added weight solely to appease them. They do not care about that. Shameful display.

But SMG is technically an H pattern getrag with a pump, similar to what BMW uses in its actual race cars. No, real SMGs like in a motorcycle are not H pattern, but BMW and Ferrari have both used SMG H pattern sequentials with pumps for racing applications and still do.
Porsche as well.

The Hatred of the SMG is just another example of the ignorant plebeians buying a race transmission and being confused about why it doesn't crawl forward when they lift the brake at a stop light.

Anyone shitting on the SMG without having driven it is simply listening to the average moron complain his cars auto didn't work right, that he broke it out of ignorance, called it unreliable and then got rid of it when his lease was up.

My car's SMG went 100k miles with only a clutch replacement.

Most people drive it like a torque converter auto and get mad when it doesn't respond like one. If you are just slamming on the gas and shifting your throttle input will interfere with the computer and slow the whole thing down.

The easiest way to make it happy without going into detail is simply lift the throttle a hair when you downshift and suddenly you're experiencing lightning fast shifts that are much smoother than the ZF6/8 which is only really good at low speed stoplight shifting.

DCT is good when it guesses your shift correctly, if not it's a slower shift. They also have the problem of being heavy. I've not heard of one being in an actual racing environment since the 80s and of course a homemade M4 GT4.

SMG is simply too GOAT to be sold to the masses. Even CVTs fake shifts in Honda's to make it feel more normal for the average idiot.

SMG died (for production vehicles, very alive in racing) because it wasn't a slush box auto. Shame on anyone who bad mouths it based on the average rubes opinion.

Enjoy your slushbox M5 Bimmerpost, you deserve it! You also deserve your slushbox M3 and slushbox future! You chose this and reinforce it by posting that the SMG ruins the CSL! What a joke, your borderline race car came with a race car transmission and ruined it....
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      02-12-2019, 05:02 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepingBMW View Post
I have SMG III, so I can't speak for SMG II but I had ridden in it back in the day.

SMGII could do this thing where you'd jerk back and forth at idle speed, really violent and pathetic looking.

The SMG also isn't smooth shifting like ZF8. In fact BMW has attached the giant slush box to the ZF8 solely to ensure the idle at stop lights was smooth.

Anyone complaining about SMG should first consider that. That's pretty pathetic, BMW obviously has to do what sells, and so many normal idiots in leases cars demanded smooth idles that you have all that added weight solely to appease them. They do not care about that. Shameful display.

But SMG is technically an H pattern getrag with a pump, similar to what BMW uses in its actual race cars. No, real SMGs like in a motorcycle are not H pattern, but BMW and Ferrari have both used SMG H pattern sequentials with pumps for racing applications and still do.
Porsche as well.

The Hatred of the SMG is just another example of the ignorant plebeians buying a race transmission and being confused about why it doesn't crawl forward when they lift the brake at a stop light.

Anyone shitting on the SMG without having driven it is simply listening to the average moron complain his cars auto didn't work right, that he broke it out of ignorance, called it unreliable and then got rid of it when his lease was up.

My car's SMG went 100k miles with only a clutch replacement.

Most people drive it like a torque converter auto and get mad when it doesn't respond like one. If you are just slamming on the gas and shifting your throttle input will interfere with the computer and slow the whole thing down.

The easiest way to make it happy without going into detail is simply lift the throttle a hair when you downshift and suddenly you're experiencing lightning fast shifts that are much smoother than the ZF6/8 which is only really good at low speed stoplight shifting.

DCT is good when it guesses your shift correctly, if not it's a slower shift. They also have the problem of being heavy. I've not heard of one being in an actual racing environment since the 80s and of course a homemade M4 GT4.

SMG is simply too GOAT to be sold to the masses. Even CVTs fake shifts in Honda's to make it feel more normal for the average idiot.

SMG died (for production vehicles, very alive in racing) because it wasn't a slush box auto. Shame on anyone who bad mouths it based on the average rubes opinion.

Enjoy your slushbox M5 Bimmerpost, you deserve it! You also deserve your slushbox M3 and slushbox future! You chose this and reinforce it by posting that the SMG ruins the CSL! What a joke, your borderline race car came with a race car transmission and ruined it....
Do you own stock in SMG/DCT transmissions? Never seen anyone so passionately defend the SMG.

The reality is that you can have all of the upside with virtually no downside with the ZF. I'm a 6MT guy so in the end I don't really care, but I had to live with a SMG in a E46 M3 for a while and I firmly believe that this transmission is pure garbage. BMW themselves has said that they were able to get the ZF to shift just as fast and has the added plus of being lighter than the DCT it replaces. So if the performance is better AND you can get some level of refinement and comfort, no need for the single or dual clutch autos.
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      02-13-2019, 12:48 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pz619 View Post
Do you own stock in SMG/DCT transmissions? Never seen anyone so passionately defend the SMG.

The reality is that you can have all of the upside with virtually no downside with the ZF. I'm a 6MT guy so in the end I don't really care, but I had to live with a SMG in a E46 M3 for a while and I firmly believe that this transmission is pure garbage. BMW themselves has said that they were able to get the ZF to shift just as fast and has the added plus of being lighter than the DCT it replaces. So if the performance is better AND you can get some level of refinement and comfort, no need for the single or dual clutch autos.
Yeah, I mean, there is no way any shift coming out of an SMG box is smoother than a ZF8. Maybe if the ZF8 is cold and it's -20 outside.

I could see someone prefer it, though. Just like some people prefer the artificial jerk put in the higher DCT modes on the F8x.
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      03-03-2019, 06:23 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xcusem3 View Post
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Originally Posted by Remonster View Post
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Originally Posted by xcusem3 View Post
Am I the only one who is thinks it's absurd that the m2 is more than 500lbs heavier than the e46??
Than the CSL*

The normal E46 M3 has a curb weight of 1,549kg in US spec which is not too much less than the US M2 depending on who is reporting the numbers.

The CSL is crazy light compared to the standard M3, the trunk floor is cardboard, roof is carbon fiber, etc
Yeah I know what the csl is... they are doing a direct comparison between the two which is why I mentioned what I did...
There's almost 15 years of technology advancements between the two cars, you would think weight savings would be a huge part of bmws R&D for this car but clearly not
Actually weight savings IS a big priority at BMW, but the added safety systems for modern regulations add a lot of weight. Consider that the F80 is lighter than the E92 and that the G80 is supposedly lighter than the F80... it's getting lighter despite growing in size. The M2's limiting factor in weight savings is cost and what the average M2 customer wants in a "luxury" sports coupe. Carbon fiber hood, aluminum panels, less sound deadening, single zone HVAC etc either add cost and/or take away some creature comforts.

If you want to know how much a truly lighter M2 would cost look no further than the Porsche 718 and those start at $60k but skyrocket with options.
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      03-05-2019, 10:42 AM   #61
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepingBMW View Post
I have SMG III, so I can't speak for SMG II but I had ridden in it back in the day.

SMGII could do this thing where you'd jerk back and forth at idle speed, really violent and pathetic looking.

The SMG also isn't smooth shifting like ZF8. In fact BMW has attached the giant slush box to the ZF8 solely to ensure the idle at stop lights was smooth.

Anyone complaining about SMG should first consider that. That's pretty pathetic, BMW obviously has to do what sells, and so many normal idiots in leases cars demanded smooth idles that you have all that added weight solely to appease them. They do not care about that. Shameful display.

But SMG is technically an H pattern getrag with a pump, similar to what BMW uses in its actual race cars. No, real SMGs like in a motorcycle are not H pattern, but BMW and Ferrari have both used SMG H pattern sequentials with pumps for racing applications and still do.
Porsche as well.

The Hatred of the SMG is just another example of the ignorant plebeians buying a race transmission and being confused about why it doesn't crawl forward when they lift the brake at a stop light.

Anyone shitting on the SMG without having driven it is simply listening to the average moron complain his cars auto didn't work right, that he broke it out of ignorance, called it unreliable and then got rid of it when his lease was up.

My car's SMG went 100k miles with only a clutch replacement.

Most people drive it like a torque converter auto and get mad when it doesn't respond like one. If you are just slamming on the gas and shifting your throttle input will interfere with the computer and slow the whole thing down.

The easiest way to make it happy without going into detail is simply lift the throttle a hair when you downshift and suddenly you're experiencing lightning fast shifts that are much smoother than the ZF6/8 which is only really good at low speed stoplight shifting.

DCT is good when it guesses your shift correctly, if not it's a slower shift. They also have the problem of being heavy. I've not heard of one being in an actual racing environment since the 80s and of course a homemade M4 GT4.

SMG is simply too GOAT to be sold to the masses. Even CVTs fake shifts in Honda's to make it feel more normal for the average idiot.

SMG died (for production vehicles, very alive in racing) because it wasn't a slush box auto. Shame on anyone who bad mouths it based on the average rubes opinion.

Enjoy your slushbox M5 Bimmerpost, you deserve it! You also deserve your slushbox M3 and slushbox future! You chose this and reinforce it by posting that the SMG ruins the CSL! What a joke, your borderline race car came with a race car transmission and ruined it....
Do you own stock in SMG/DCT transmissions? Never seen anyone so passionately defend the SMG.

The reality is that you can have all of the upside with virtually no downside with the ZF. I'm a 6MT guy so in the end I don't really care, but I had to live with a SMG in a E46 M3 for a while and I firmly believe that this transmission is pure garbage. BMW themselves has said that they were able to get the ZF to shift just as fast and has the added plus of being lighter than the DCT it replaces. So if the performance is better AND you can get some level of refinement and comfort, no need for the single or dual clutch autos.
I have spent no time with BMWs DCT, only Audi, so i can't speak for it.

In my mind the ZF is nice for traffic. I don't like the feel, especially compared to the Audi. I do like the quality of life improvements. SMG having 6 settings is annoying to change when really I prefer Sport+ and eco. SMG also is annoying because the computer will hang at 2.9k revs for ever if the shift point is 3k for example where the ZF will shift to most economic for you.

I also like you can flappy paddle Down shift for a highway pass without exiting auto mode and it will revert back after 5 seconds or so. SMG will stay Manual forever if you downshift with a paddle. It also has Auto Manual and 'M' mode settings and is annoying to drive. Push M mode for some fun and it goes to whatever you program it to. Turn off M mode and it goes to whatever manual setting you have it to then you have to put it into Auto mode to get it back to auto. The computers in the new BMW transmissions are better in every Way.

However by the numbers, SMGIII is 65ms, DCT is 200 ms, and ZF is 220ms. This is all upshifts as well.

ZF has annoying traits for performance. at high torque settings it is not as fast or smooth. Just isn't. It can't skip 2 gears either and you have to do the mildly annoying shift wait shift. The kick down button on the pedal is incredibly annoying.

SMG isn't reliable or smooth but ZF is boring and an obvious compromise désignés to attract Camry buyers not track boys.

BMW should be bullied about it or you'll be stuck with it or something worse next generation. A transmission that works for hybrids and SUVs isn't going to be best for M cars. The Gord/GM 10 speed for example.
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      03-05-2019, 02:41 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by SleepingBMW View Post
I have spent no time with BMWs DCT, only Audi, so i can't speak for it.

In my mind the ZF is nice for traffic. I don't like the feel, especially compared to the Audi. I do like the quality of life improvements. SMG having 6 settings is annoying to change when really I prefer Sport+ and eco. SMG also is annoying because the computer will hang at 2.9k revs for ever if the shift point is 3k for example where the ZF will shift to most economic for you.

I also like you can flappy paddle Down shift for a highway pass without exiting auto mode and it will revert back after 5 seconds or so. SMG will stay Manual forever if you downshift with a paddle. It also has Auto Manual and 'M' mode settings and is annoying to drive. Push M mode for some fun and it goes to whatever you program it to. Turn off M mode and it goes to whatever manual setting you have it to then you have to put it into Auto mode to get it back to auto. The computers in the new BMW transmissions are better in every Way.

However by the numbers, SMGIII is 65ms, DCT is 200 ms, and ZF is 220ms. This is all upshifts as well.

ZF has annoying traits for performance. at high torque settings it is not as fast or smooth. Just isn't. It can't skip 2 gears either and you have to do the mildly annoying shift wait shift. The kick down button on the pedal is incredibly annoying.

SMG isn't reliable or smooth but ZF is boring and an obvious compromise désignés to attract Camry buyers not track boys.

BMW should be bullied about it or you'll be stuck with it or something worse next generation. A transmission that works for hybrids and SUVs isn't going to be best for M cars. The Gord/GM 10 speed for example.
These numbers are wrong. There is no way that the BMW DCT is 200 ms. Those measurements don't even say if that takes into account software latency from paddle pull or the shift itself. Either way, DCT is basically instant unless you did something unpredictable. There's no way SMG III is 65 ms unless they are being measured in different ways. You can see just from Youtube videos it is a LOT slower than DCT or even ZF8. I found 3 videos in 5 min that show SMG III in an E46 M3 and the shifts are obviously slower. Maybe you think it's faster from the kick, but it isn't.
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      03-05-2019, 07:48 PM   #63
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I hope to answer this as my M2c comes home tomorrow to join my CSL. Both fantastic cars.

SMG II in the CSL is using different software, if i remember correctly it is the fastest shifting SMG gearbox BMW have, quicker than the V10s SMG gearbox.

Its a different in use and feel to an auto and Dual Clutch.

All i will say Lamborghini still uses a robotized Manual box in their Aventador !
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      03-06-2019, 07:21 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
These numbers are wrong. There is no way that the BMW DCT is 200 ms. Those measurements don't even say if that takes into account software latency from paddle pull or the shift itself. Either way, DCT is basically instant unless you did something unpredictable. There's no way SMG III is 65 ms unless they are being measured in different ways. You can see just from Youtube videos it is a LOT slower than DCT or even ZF8. I found 3 videos in 5 min that show SMG III in an E46 M3 and the shifts are obviously slower. Maybe you think it's faster from the kick, but it isn't.
SMGIII was e60 M5.

The e46 m3 had SMG had SMGII-- which was 80ms shifts, at redline, at WOT, in S6 (vary any of those conditions and it's slower, to varying degrees).
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      03-06-2019, 11:32 AM   #65
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      03-07-2019, 02:11 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by SleepingBMW View Post
I have spent no time with BMWs DCT, only Audi, so i can't speak for it.

In my mind the ZF is nice for traffic. I don't like the feel, especially compared to the Audi. I do like the quality of life improvements. SMG having 6 settings is annoying to change when really I prefer Sport+ and eco. SMG also is annoying because the computer will hang at 2.9k revs for ever if the shift point is 3k for example where the ZF will shift to most economic for you.

I also like you can flappy paddle Down shift for a highway pass without exiting auto mode and it will revert back after 5 seconds or so. SMG will stay Manual forever if you downshift with a paddle. It also has Auto Manual and 'M' mode settings and is annoying to drive. Push M mode for some fun and it goes to whatever you program it to. Turn off M mode and it goes to whatever manual setting you have it to then you have to put it into Auto mode to get it back to auto. The computers in the new BMW transmissions are better in every Way.

However by the numbers, SMGIII is 65ms, DCT is 200 ms, and ZF is 220ms. This is all upshifts as well.

ZF has annoying traits for performance. at high torque settings it is not as fast or smooth. Just isn't. It can't skip 2 gears either and you have to do the mildly annoying shift wait shift. The kick down button on the pedal is incredibly annoying.

SMG isn't reliable or smooth but ZF is boring and an obvious compromise désignés to attract Camry buyers not track boys.

BMW should be bullied about it or you'll be stuck with it or something worse next generation. A transmission that works for hybrids and SUVs isn't going to be best for M cars. The Gord/GM 10 speed for example.
These numbers are wrong. There is no way that the BMW DCT is 200 ms. Those measurements don't even say if that takes into account software latency from paddle pull or the shift itself. Either way, DCT is basically instant unless you did something unpredictable. There's no way SMG III is 65 ms unless they are being measured in different ways. You can see just from Youtube videos it is a LOT slower than DCT or even ZF8. I found 3 videos in 5 min that show SMG III in an E46 M3 and the shifts are obviously slower. Maybe you think it's faster from the kick, but it isn't.
I'm going by BMW and Porsche's official numbers. You have to turn off traction control and activate the fastest setting for this. It's not fast at all in the default mode, maybe 500-600ms? I'm also not sure the M3 ever had SMGIII.

I'd say it's more likely you are confused by the lack of kick in the DCT and ZF8. I had spent some more time with the ZF8 in a 328d last week. It most definitely doesn't shift faster than SMGIII in highest setting, definitely a lot smoother though.

Unless ZF8 has a hidden setting? I was shifting in sport + with the shifter to manual mode. BMW likes to hide these things so it's possibly buried in the menu somewhere or M cars only?

Anyway ZF8 wasn't much of an improvement over ZF6. Same slushbox but apparently a complete redesign after that. Nice transmission compared to GM and Ford and the Japs, no doubt but I'd be mad if it was in my M car.

Remember BMW only uses it because it's rated for high torque, can run a hybrid, has no development fee, and is bought in bulk already. The alternative is developing a new DCT or manual for high horsepower only applications in M cars which sell under 20k and a small fraction of their market. They're not picking it because it's awesome, they certainly don't race with it. They just know they can save money without hurting sales by using it in M cars.

I also found out my SMG differential needs a $700 fluid change. Ouch.

Have the DCTs had expensive repairs?
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