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      05-15-2019, 10:54 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by uniqueMR View Post
Hmmm wait, Honda vs BMW ???
While I would never buy the Honda for fundamental RWD vs. FWD reasons, the comments like this are killing me.

You guys do realize a Honda engine is currently beating Ferrari in the Formula 1 championship and only behind a pair of Mercedes AMG powered cars, don't you? Let's save the trash talk for when BMW is not too afraid to compete at the highest level of Motorsport. Until then, STFU, please.
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      05-15-2019, 10:57 PM   #46
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great review...both great cars!
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      05-15-2019, 11:13 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CP911 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by uniqueMR View Post
Hmmm wait, Honda vs BMW ???
While I would never buy the Honda for fundamental RWD vs. FWD reasons, the comments like this are killing me.

You guys do realize a Honda engine is currently beating Ferrari in the Formula 1 championship and only behind a pair of Mercedes AMG powered cars, don't you? Let's save the trash talk for when BMW is not too afraid to compete at the highest level of Motorsport. Until then, STFU, please.
you do realize that Ferrari has the strongest motors in F1 right now, and that their issue is with downforce not straight line speed?
also, since Honda has returned to F1, how many DNFs have they had?
Alonso had some pretty nice words to say about Honda powerplants over the years..

also your comment about BMW being too scared to compete is absurd. That decision is financially based, as it makes no sense for them to blow millions on F1 Dev when their operating budget is already tight.

check your facts
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      05-15-2019, 11:26 PM   #48
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I started my HPDE driving and autocross history in 3 Ford SHO's. The last one has a Quaife installed.

I also co-drove a Integra Type R over a 2 season period in SOLO 2.

Then 2 RWD BMW M cars and then until just 2 years ago a EVO X and a FR-S.

Currently back in a RWD MX-5 RF.

FWD just plain sucks gang. I don't give a rats ass what you do to make it torque steer less, how you play around with strange spring rates & sways to compensate for the 60+% over the front axle, or fit a LSD into the transaxle.

I just has some plain physics problems:

1)Weight distribution
Causes brake bias issues, and interesting mid corner handling dynamics, acceleration, and more...

2) Its FWD..... Torque steer, uneven pavement traction issues under acceleration, and "PUSH" Everywhere. Yes its far easier to drive a LSD FWD car than a RWD car at 10/10's, but it gets boring real fast. At mid corner you simply drive the car using the go pedal, same as an AWD car like the EVO. BORING!

3) My home track is NHMS. T3 is the slowest corner on the track. After braking from over 100MPH down to corner entry speed you hit the bump where the road course leaves the NASCAR oval.... at this point the turn proceeds uphill while still sweeping sharply right. FWD drive cars here get left behind, even with a LSD. Its quite simple physics.
OTOH my EVO smoked just about everything it ran with here. You just worked the gas pedal until you were about to drop your LF Tire off the surface.

Even that got boring pretty fast.

You know what never gets boring? Working a RWD car with good power up that hill using the rear diff and gas pedal. More fun, more challenging, and faster. I'd rather get "pushed" up the hill than "pulled". Or working the diff corner braking at Big Bend at LRP.

Honda makes the finest mass produced 4 banger in the world. They have massaged this car and done a damn good job of making the whole pkg work.

Food for thought: which car has more room for mods and improvement in both track times and fun?

The M2 or M2C. Given a $10K budget for mods the M2 platform will return a bigger return on investment. How much power can the transaxle in the Honda be able to handle under track driving conditions if modded much further than it is now? How long will the motor last running even higher boost numbers than it does now. I ran 28 lbs of peak boost thru my EVO X 2 liter. I had the engine rebuilt twice and heat problems were ALWWAYS a problem on tight tracks.

Nope, I will never own a FWD performance car again...And I can say that I've come full circle and left AWD drive as well.

Also the Honda is butt ugly. It actually is uglier than a SUBI and that's hard to accomplish. It has more scoops, wings, spoilers and warts than a SUBI.
Go figure...It can't take the award away from the Subi for engine and exhaust sounds. Nothing sounds worse than an flat four SUBI a kid has slapped an exhaust on. It sounds like a Singer sewing machine underwater.

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      05-15-2019, 11:31 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWF87Guy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by CP911 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by uniqueMR View Post
Hmmm wait, Honda vs BMW ???
While I would never buy the Honda for fundamental RWD vs. FWD reasons, the comments like this are killing me.

You guys do realize a Honda engine is currently beating Ferrari in the Formula 1 championship and only behind a pair of Mercedes AMG powered cars, don't you? Let's save the trash talk for when BMW is not too afraid to compete at the highest level of Motorsport. Until then, STFU, please.
you do realize that Ferrari has the strongest motors in F1 right now, and that their issue is with downforce not straight line speed?
also, since Honda has returned to F1, how many DNFs have they had?
Alonso had some pretty nice words to say about Honda powerplants over the years..

also your comment about BMW being too scared to compete is absurd. That decision is financially based, as it makes no sense for them to blow millions on F1 Dev when their operating budget is already tight.

check your facts
Strongest motors that are still being beaten by a Honda. Didn't Leclerc's Ferrari power unit fail him and cost him a race victory this season? Engine strength is nothing if they don't have reliability to match at the highest output setting.

Alonso and McLaren were butthurt that they couldn't win and needed someone to blame. How are their results this season with the new Renault power units? Seems Honda has stepped up to the challenge this year while McLaren is still enjoying the taste of shit in their mouth.

Cost is no excuse for not wanting to play with the big boys. Gotta pay to play.

Sorry you are butthurt as well, Ferrari fanboy! Quit living in the past.
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      05-15-2019, 11:52 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spetsnazos View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevehifi View Post
I'm not sure why you guys are hating the Honda Civic Type R so much. It's $36k USD new (30k less than an M2C) and probably way more economical and reliable to track(tires/brakes/maintenance) then a BMW.
Give it some respect for what it is. I saw the car in person and looking at the spartan interior and build approach it's clear that honda made this car a no frills track day special.

This is what BMW used to do with the M series when M used to mean something. I mean you don't see Honda making a pilot or odyssey Type R do you?
Lol good luck getting a CTR for MSRP. They're selling for 40k min across the country.

They really need to stop advertising the 36k price, you literally can't buy it for that due to dealer markup, and you can't order it directly from Honda thus 40k is what the price is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by O Haiii View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by heavyD^2 View Post
They didn't cheat. They conveniently don't mention it was a pre-production car (who knows how much power it was really making) with a stripped interior and Sport Cup 2 tires.
i guess TECHNICALLY it's not cheating. Cheating as in they didn't publish fake time that was not real.

Either way fwd cars in my life are limited to daily drivers / family hauler / grocery getter, etc. I've actually rented a CTR on Turo before buying my LCI M2. If the road is anything but perfect, you can't put the power down at all. It's just too much power going to front wheels with limited traction on acceleration. Hops and skips everywhere, even with the LSD
Quote:
Originally Posted by spetsnazos View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevehifi View Post
I'm not sure why you guys are hating the Honda Civic Type R so much. It's $36k USD new (30k less than an M2C) and probably way more economical and reliable to track(tires/brakes/maintenance) then a BMW.
Give it some respect for what it is. I saw the car in person and looking at the spartan interior and build approach it's clear that honda made this car a no frills track day special.

This is what BMW used to do with the M series when M used to mean something. I mean you don't see Honda making a pilot or odyssey Type R do you?
Lol good luck getting a CTR for MSRP. They're selling for 40k min across the country.

They really need to stop advertising the 36k price, you literally can't buy it for that due to dealer markup, and you can't order it directly from Honda thus 40k is what the price is.
It takes a little work, but you absolutely can get the CTR for MSRP...although close to impossible on the west coast. Fan of both Honda and BMW, and may pick up one of these two vehicles, but nuts to pay over MSRP for almost any car.
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      05-15-2019, 11:57 PM   #51
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Impressive civic !! Way over styled for me tho
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      05-16-2019, 01:06 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by cotmfk View Post
Two cars that would never be cross-shopped...
You have no idea how wrong you are

As a former owner of an e90 M3, F10 M5, and F82M4 I can tell you that CTR is one of the best vehicles available today. I sold my M4 to buy the Civic. I briefly considered selling the CTR for an M3CS or a 911T (I have car ADD). After driving them back to back the CTR is just as quick on the street and way more enjoyable to drive.

The CTR was also the Evo 2018 Track Car of the Year even taking down the McLaren 570S among others (the GT3 was the real winner, but since it was not "really" available at the time they disqualified it). There is a reason CTR's are still going for over sticker price. Say whatever you want about looks, it just shows you are the new target market for the M division. Looks over function, badge over performance. BMW (and other brands like Porsche and Mercedes) have gotten their asses kicked by the likes of Chevrolet with the Z28/ZL1 1LE, Honda with the Civic Type R, etc. The good thing from this is that they have been forced to respond with cars like the new F90 M5 which is a fantastic drivers car. Still too isolated for me (thought about buying one for my wife), but way better than my F10 was.
Your on the wrong forum ...
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      05-16-2019, 01:07 AM   #53
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I love the type r so much that Im planning to jump back for the 2020 model. The honda is more useable and has higher cornering speeds.
Hopefully your under 30. And again.. wrong forum.
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      05-16-2019, 01:10 AM   #54
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Very interesting! Thank you for sharing!
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      05-16-2019, 03:23 AM   #55
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Really?

A sad day when the M2 gets compared to the type R.
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      05-16-2019, 06:07 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CP911 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWF87Guy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by CP911 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by uniqueMR View Post
Hmmm wait, Honda vs BMW ???
While I would never buy the Honda for fundamental RWD vs. FWD reasons, the comments like this are killing me.

You guys do realize a Honda engine is currently beating Ferrari in the Formula 1 championship and only behind a pair of Mercedes AMG powered cars, don't you? Let's save the trash talk for when BMW is not too afraid to compete at the highest level of Motorsport. Until then, STFU, please.
you do realize that Ferrari has the strongest motors in F1 right now, and that their issue is with downforce not straight line speed?
also, since Honda has returned to F1, how many DNFs have they had?
Alonso had some pretty nice words to say about Honda powerplants over the years..

also your comment about BMW being too scared to compete is absurd. That decision is financially based, as it makes no sense for them to blow millions on F1 Dev when their operating budget is already tight.

check your facts
Strongest motors that are still being beaten by a Honda. Didn't Leclerc's Ferrari power unit fail him and cost him a race victory this season? Engine strength is nothing if they don't have reliability to match at the highest output setting.

Alonso and McLaren were butthurt that they couldn't win and needed someone to blame. How are their results this season with the new Renault power units? Seems Honda has stepped up to the challenge this year while McLaren is still enjoying the taste of shit in their mouth.

Cost is no excuse for not wanting to play with the big boys. Gotta pay to play.

Sorry you are butthurt as well, Ferrari fanboy! Quit living in the past.
Honda is not beating anybody, they make one component of the car, albeit an important one, but there are many other aspects that go into an F1 car. They are an engine supplier, not a team. Red bull is competitive despite the Honda powerplant not because of it, and the only reason they considered using Honda engines was because Merc and Ferrari refused to supply them with motors for fear of their stiff competition. The Honda move may prove to be a disaster yet as it did with McLaren

Until Honda enters their own factory team and wins anything your argument is silly.

The only thing Honda might be able to do well is create an F1 car as ugly as the CTR.
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      05-16-2019, 06:35 AM   #57
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The Civic is a great performer, but is simply looked at as a kids car.
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      05-16-2019, 07:34 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CP911 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by uniqueMR View Post
Hmmm wait, Honda vs BMW ???
While I would never buy the Honda for fundamental RWD vs. FWD reasons, the comments like this are killing me.

You guys do realize a Honda engine is currently beating Ferrari in the Formula 1 championship and only behind a pair of Mercedes AMG powered cars, don't you? Let's save the trash talk for when BMW is not too afraid to compete at the highest level of Motorsport. Until then, STFU, please.


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      05-16-2019, 07:40 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CP911 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by uniqueMR View Post
Hmmm wait, Honda vs BMW ???
While I would never buy the Honda for fundamental RWD vs. FWD reasons, the comments like this are killing me.

You guys do realize a Honda engine is currently beating Ferrari in the Formula 1 championship and only behind a pair of Mercedes AMG powered cars, don't you? Let's save the trash talk for when BMW is not too afraid to compete at the highest level of Motorsport. Until then, STFU, please.
Honda also makes lawnmowers....

Toyota is winning in NASCAR, should we all go buy a Camary over a BMW? Rather buy a car from a company that spends millions bettering their real world cars than one that wastes millions building fantasy cars with fantasy engines that never see the light of day on the road. But hey I hear the Type R got the Teretto letter of approval so you should see it at a Race Wars near you
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      05-16-2019, 07:45 AM   #60
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someone close this thread. I'm wow'd by the intelligence of fellow board members.
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      05-16-2019, 08:08 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ContactPatch View Post
I know what I think, from a design standpoint, the Honda Civic looks like a steaming turd!
The front design is actually all right, but the rear really sucks, it's a design for teenager boy racers. Especially the wing and the 2 big pieces of black plastic on the bumper.

In fact, I am really keen to test drive a Civic Type R (FK8) but not that keen to own one due to the taste of exterior design. If Honda can make a proper hatch version without a wing, I'll seriously consider it (now i30 N is definitely more popular in Australia in this segment).
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      05-16-2019, 10:07 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by mPlasticDesign View Post
Everyone saying Honda "cheated" and the car was "Stripped" are being a little ignorant. Honda only took out enough weight to offset the weight added with the full cage which was a safety requirement. Putting it at production weight. If I had to choose between the CRT or M2, I'd probably change my mind 10 times in a week for various reasons. Stop being fanbois and be car enthusiasts. Peace.

Then please explain to everyone in the car world why NOONE, not even professional racing drivers, including from some of the most renowned publications cannot come close to the 7:43 in the stock CTR.
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      05-16-2019, 10:07 AM   #63
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I get on the CTR boards and end up defending the M2.

I get on the M2 boards and end up defending the CTR.

As a car enthusiast, everyone needs to respect that the CTR is the best in its class (by far) and can punch well above its weight.
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      05-16-2019, 10:09 AM   #64
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Everyone who owns a CTR here saying throw out your ego and stop being a fanboi...

PLEASE GO CHECK OUT THE CTR FORUM. That'll show you what a fanboi is. They trash on the M2 much much more than we "trash" the R. The truth is the truth. FWD on a sports car is not a great recipe period. Why aren't Ferraris and Porschs and Lambos and Zondas FWD then?
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      05-16-2019, 10:28 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
You are all missing a big thing here, the Type R is roughly 500 lbs lighter. 300HP on a car that’s 3100lbs will make any car fun as hell.

I have had 3 F80s/82 since they came out, e92 M3, E46 M3 and F87, a 991.2 Carrera, 718 cayman S, Mustang GT, and now the Type R, and if you can get past the “Honda” stereotypes, and get over your own ego, the Type R is the most satisfying car I have had this far.
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      05-16-2019, 10:48 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Linc0909 View Post
Honda also makes lawnmowers....

Toyota is winning in NASCAR, should we all go buy a Camary over a BMW? Rather buy a car from a company that spends millions bettering their real world cars than one that wastes millions building fantasy cars with fantasy engines that never see the light of day on the road. But hey I hear the Type R got the Teretto letter of approval so you should see it at a Race Wars near you
Who said anything about buying a Honda or Toyota? Check the profile. I own a BMW.

You guys are missing the point. The comments implying a Honda has no business being compared to another respected enthusiast brand because "it's a Honda" are totally ignorant. Show some respect!

Your amateur ignorance is on display as well by your comment, "with fantasy engines that never see the light of day on the road." The Civic Type R engine powers Formula 3 race cars and the K20 powers Formula 4 cars. So yes, their "real world" car engines are closer to racing pedigree than most are even aware of, including you.

Sheesh. Bunch of fucking amateurs commenting here.

Last edited by CP911; 05-16-2019 at 10:55 AM..
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