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      12-20-2019, 09:14 AM   #969
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Originally Posted by Hegge View Post
Regardless of weight, the CS will ride differently than the Competition version. Also, I read that the new 992 911 Turbo is about 110 pounds more than the last generation. Weight gain is everywhere in the car industry including Porsche.
Yeah, but you're cherry picking data. 991 was lighter than the 997 it replaced. IMO Porsche has done a much better job than any other manufacture wrt weight.
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      12-20-2019, 09:55 AM   #970
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Yeah, but you're cherry picking data. 991 was lighter than the 997 it replaced. IMO Porsche has done a much better job than any other manufacture wrt weight.
My guess is due to a change in frame materials and electronics. I believe the point is that the future for manufacturing seems to be increasing weight. Unless using more expensive materials, but that decreases affordability.
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      12-20-2019, 10:16 AM   #971
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My guess is due to a change in frame materials and electronics.
Correct, which is why many Porschephiles view the 997 as the last mechanical/analog 911. The 991 weight savings was modest and came at a great cost. Anyway, that was over eight years ago, so I'm not sure it's all that relevant. The 992 is the new 911 and it's the biggest, fattest, heaviest and most tech/electronics-riddled 911 ever. Let's be honest, if you're a driver purist, and you are strictly in the market for a new car, your options are severely limited. The GT3 Touring was a dream come true for many enthusiasts but it was not cheap and the fact is production is long over now (and I almost dread what the 992 version will look like, in terms of size, tech, styling and weight). So, while the M2 CS is priced higher than I'd like, I think it's the best option in the new car market -- again, coming from a driver purist perspective.
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      12-20-2019, 10:54 AM   #972
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Originally Posted by Hegge View Post
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Originally Posted by DieGrüneHölle View Post
The BMWUK site also list the weight for Comp and CS as the same.
Regardless of weight, the CS will ride differently than the Competition version. Also, I read that the new 992 911 Turbo is about 110 pounds more than the last generation. Weight gain is everywhere in the car industry including Porsche.
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Originally Posted by medphysdave View Post
My guess is due to a change in frame materials and electronics. I believe the point is that the future for manufacturing seems to be increasing weight. Unless using more expensive materials, but that decreases affordability.
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Originally Posted by kepler View Post
Correct, which is why many Porschephiles view the 997 as the last mechanical/analog 911. The 991 weight savings was modest and came at a great cost. Anyway, that was over eight years ago, so I'm not sure it's all that relevant. The 992 is the new 911 and it's the biggest, fattest, heaviest and most tech/electronics-riddled 911 ever. Let's be honest, if you're a driver purist, and you are strictly in the market for a new car, your options are severely limited. The GT3 Touring was a dream come true for many enthusiasts but it was not cheap and the fact is production is long over now (and I almost dread what the 992 version will look like, in terms of size, tech, styling and weight). So, while the M2 CS is priced higher than I'd like, I think it's the best option in the new car market -- again, coming from a driver purist perspective.
Beware about official weight figures from the past: rules for car weight figures have been tightened. In the past most high performance car manufacturers perfected the art of listing the lowest weight possible with car configurations that almost no customer chose, for low weight bragging rights purposes. Regulations forced the car industry to indicate more realistic figures as regards car weight, fuel consumption, range and CO2 emissions.

For a good example, see here:
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Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Remember Andreas Preuninger recently trying to talk his way out in interviews when tackling the topic of the 80kg weight increase - on paper - of the 718 GT4 (2019) compared to the 981 GT4 (2015) (1420 kg vs 1340 kg), emphasizing that it's only about 30kg extra rather than 80kg extra.
See from 13:28 to 15:21 in this video (comparing spec sheets: "it's deceiving, deceiving").
Fair enough, but that implies that the 1340kg figure quoted by Porsche back in 2015 for the bare-bones 981 GT4 was actually not representative for GT4 cars sold 'in real life' and would be around 1390kg when weighed with nowadays standards.
Last June, in the Sport Auto interview, AP also disclosed that for 'delete' features "the take-rate is at maximum 2%": see from 12:51 to 13:25 in this video.
So though the 1340 kg figure may be technically true for the 981 GT4 and back then the car could have been ordered that way, but that won't be the usual GT4 sold 'in real life' back then.
Good thing that regulations force car manufacturers to provide figures (weight, fuel consumption, range, emissions) that are closer to 'real life'.
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      12-20-2019, 11:12 AM   #973
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Originally Posted by kepler View Post
Correct, which is why many Porschephiles view the 997 as the last mechanical/analog 911. The 991 weight savings was modest and came at a great cost. Anyway, that was over eight years ago, so I'm not sure it's all that relevant. The 992 is the new 911 and it's the biggest, fattest, heaviest and most tech/electronics-riddled 911 ever. Let's be honest, if you're a driver purist, and you are strictly in the market for a new car, your options are severely limited. The GT3 Touring was a dream come true for many enthusiasts but it was not cheap and the fact is production is long over now (and I almost dread what the 992 version will look like, in terms of size, tech, styling and weight). So, while the M2 CS is priced higher than I'd like, I think it's the best option in the new car market -- again, coming from a driver purist perspective.
That's what I'm seeing as far as the CS is concerned. I'm sure the 1M is fantastic, but I do want some of the modern convenience of a newish tech. I'd go back to a Miata if a really want the full connected driving experience, but I'm all about having one of something. One car that does what I want, one carry pistol that Im competent with, one hunting rifle per task, etc.
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      12-20-2019, 01:49 PM   #974
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Originally Posted by Airbag79 View Post
Yeah, but you're cherry picking data. 991 was lighter than the 997 it replaced. IMO Porsche has done a much better job than any other manufacture wrt weight.
The 991 was 8 years ago. The 992 is current. I agree that Porsche has done a better job, the point is that even the best of the best have weight gain.
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      12-20-2019, 01:52 PM   #975
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Originally Posted by Hegge View Post
The 991 was 8 years ago. The 992 is current. I agree that Porsche has done a better job, the point is that even the best of the best have weight gain.
Proof in point. I weigh a few more pounds now than 10yrs ago.
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      12-20-2019, 02:25 PM   #976
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Originally Posted by kepler View Post
Correct, which is why many Porschephiles view the 997 as the last mechanical/analog 911. The 991 weight savings was modest and came at a great cost. Anyway, that was over eight years ago, so I'm not sure it's all that relevant. The 992 is the new 911 and it's the biggest, fattest, heaviest and most tech/electronics-riddled 911 ever. Let's be honest, if you're a driver purist, and you are strictly in the market for a new car, your options are severely limited. The GT3 Touring was a dream come true for many enthusiasts but it was not cheap and the fact is production is long over now (and I almost dread what the 992 version will look like, in terms of size, tech, styling and weight). So, while the M2 CS is priced higher than I'd like, I think it's the best option in the new car market -- again, coming from a driver purist perspective.
Kepler is right 1000%. For someone like myself who wants a DCT/PDK (no manual), there are not too many choices in the new car market from a driver purist perspective. M2 CS and 992 911. As I stated here before, M2 CS is around $88K with DCT and Sport Cup 2 tires. 992 911 Carrera S with reasonable options is around $137K. So a difference of around $50K. At least the CS is scarce whereas the 992 911 Carrera S will be available on lots everywhere for the next 7 years.

Also, the next 992 GT3 will have a MSRP increase of probably around $15K and will be about $170K or more with reasonable options. The next 992 911 turbo will be even more dollars.
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      12-20-2019, 02:33 PM   #977
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Proof in point. I weigh a few more pounds now than 10yrs ago.
  • Don't say: "Sorry honey, but that pair of chinos no longer fits."
  • Say: "Sorry honey, but that pair of chinos has shrunk over time."
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      12-20-2019, 02:59 PM   #978
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Added weight is not a problem in my vehicle; my only one passenger is my girlfriend and I'm always subliminally crushing her self-esteem, so she starves herself to the point of borderline malnutrition. #WeightReduction
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      12-20-2019, 05:13 PM   #979
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Added weight is not a problem in my vehicle; my only one passenger is my girlfriend and I'm always subliminally crushing her self-esteem, so she starves herself to the point of borderline malnutrition. #WeightReduction
Sorry ladies, Poochie's taken.
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      12-20-2019, 05:13 PM   #980
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Ok cut the BS, who is ordering one?
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      12-20-2019, 05:29 PM   #981
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Airbag79 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hegge View Post
Regardless of weight, the CS will ride differently than the Competition version. Also, I read that the new 992 911 Turbo is about 110 pounds more than the last generation. Weight gain is everywhere in the car industry including Porsche.
Yeah, but you're cherry picking data. 991 was lighter than the 997 it replaced. IMO Porsche has done a much better job than any other manufacture wrt weight.
Indeed.

F56 Mini GP is 85kg lighter than the JCW. 1255kg.
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      12-20-2019, 06:09 PM   #982
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Ok cut the BS, who is ordering one?
I'm still planning to order one. I've done a complete turn from HS with gold wheels to the full on clown car spec. Anyone have an idea of what the dealer cost is for the CCB option? M curious if it's possible to get CCB for a low enough cost to make it enticing.

I can't justify them at $8500 since right after purchase depreciation will immediately be $8500 + probably $5k. I don't mind the pay to play, but setting money on fire is a bit rich of a game for me.

The first year you'll probably turn a profit as I believe there will be enough folks that are willing to pay, but won't get an allocation.
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      12-20-2019, 06:17 PM   #983
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I'm still planning to order one. I've done a complete turn from HS with gold wheels to the full on clown car spec. Anyone have an idea of what the dealer cost is for the CCB option? M curious if it's possible to get CCB for a low enough cost to make it enticing.
I can't justify them at $8500 since right after purchase depreciation will immediately be $8500 + probably $5k. I don't mind the pay to play, but setting money on fire is a bit rich of a game for me.
The first year you'll probably turn a profit as I believe there will be enough folks that are willing to pay, but won't get an allocation.
Some extra food for thought.
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Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
8k gets you from base blue brake to CCB.
From red bbk to CCB, it may be half the cost.
Let's distinguish 'cost for BMW' and 'cost for the M2 CS customer'.

When ordering an M2 CS you got a choice about (Brembo) brakes:
  • tick the M-CCB box and it will set you back $8K/€8K for the gold colored M-CCB (option code 2NK);
  • don't tick the M-CCB box, you get the red M Sport Brakes (code 2NH) as standard feature and the price will not change.
So no "half cost" favor to choose the M-CCB instead of the M Sport Brakes. On the M2 CS you cannot spec the original blue "regular" M2/M2C brakes (that allow fitting 18" wheels).

You could also approach it the other way around: on the M2 CS you get the red 2NH M Sport Brakes as standard feature (cost option on the M2C in Europe: silver 2NH). But of course, it's already included in the M2 CS base price. Seen from that perspective M-CCB on the M2 CS are actually the price of the 2NH + $8K/€8K (M-CCB factory installed). If you want to retrofit 2NH at a later stage, it will cost you even more: M-CCB (factory installed) + 2NH + cost of labor for the 2NH retrofit.

So, yeah, as regards the M2 CS customer wallet, M-CCB is even more costly for the M2 CS customer than the $8K/€8k option price: BMW gets the 2NH money from that customer as part of the M2 CS base price without installing 2NH onto the M2 CS of that customer.
See also here medphysdave (source: here):
"Cars With Carbon Ceramic Brakes Are Going to Be the Used Car Plague
by Doug DeMuro - July 2017
As some of you know, I'm currently mired in the search for a new car to replace my ancient Range Rover daily driver, which I've had for the last five years or so. One of the cars on my short list of Range Rover replacements is the Mercedes-Benz E63 AMG Wagon -- and while I can't afford a newer 2014-2016 model, I've been eyeing them anyway, because they're perfect for me: cool, high tech, all-wheel-drive (good for winter!) and exciting to drive.
So I found a nice E63 Wagon for sale on Autotrader, and I sent it to my friend Peri, and he replied: "You know that one has carbon ceramic brakes, right?" Apparently, the gold-colored calipers give it away.
Carbon ceramic brakes? In a luxury station wagon?
I looked it up, and Peri was right. Beginning in 2014, Mercedes-Benz started offering carbon ceramic brakes as an option on the E63 AMG and the E63 AMG Wagon -- and not just any option, but an option with a sticker price of just under $13,000. Mind you, the base price of a 2014 E63 AMG Wagon was only $103,400. This single option was nearly 13 percent of the car's entire price. Imagine, if you will, a $2,500 single option on a Toyota Camry.
For those of you who question the sanity of anyone who would order such a thing, allow me to explain the theoretical benefits of carbon ceramic brakes -- which are now offered by many high-end luxury and performance-oriented car brands. Carbon ceramic brakes are indeed better that steel brakes, but they don't decrease stopping distance, as people commonly think. Instead, they reduce brake fade, which gives them a huge advantage at the race track -- if you're spending a lot of time on the track, your carbon ceramic brakes will basically never fade, even with many laps of hard driving. With steel brakes, you'll feel brake fade fairly quickly.
That's one benefit of carbon ceramics. Another benefit is that you don't have to change your brake rotors as often as you do with steel brakes. Most steel-brake cars need new rotors every few years; a car with carbon ceramics just needs standard (and inexpensive) brake pad changes until it reaches about 100,000 miles, at which point only do you need to change the rotors.
Which brings us to the downside: changing the rotors. According to several people on the AMG forums, they received a carbon ceramic brake rotor and pad change estimate of somewhere between $15,000 and $18,000 when the time finally came to do the work. I looked up the parts myself, and it appears that just the parts -- rotors and pads -- are somewhere in the neighborhood of $11,000. Add in labor, and that $15,000 to $18,000 seems high, but not totally out of the realm of possibility.
In other words, the cool car you ordered with carbon ceramic brakes in 2014 will have a necessary repair of maybe $15,000 in about 2024. And this leads me to my point: Nobody is going to want these things when they're used cars.
The thing is, while the carbon ceramic brakes may have made sense for the original owner, who spent $120,000 or more for the car when it was new, a 10-year-old AMG Mercedes is worth maybe $20,000 to $25,000 -- and nobody in that realm is going to want to spend another $15,000 just to change the brakes. I seriously believe that this will dramatically impact the value of any AMG Mercedes (or BMW, or Porsche, or whatever) with carbon ceramic brakes once it's more than seven or eight years old -- much like how manual cars tend to become more valuable in the used market in part because they're easier to fix if something breaks in the transmission.
Now, admittedly, this value hit won't affect all cars. Some vehicles with carbon ceramic brakes that remain highly expensive -- the Porsche Carrera GT, for instance, or the Porsche 911 GT2 -- won't see any value impact due to those brakes, because second, third, and fourth owners will be able to afford them. But otherwise run-of-the-mill BMW and Mercedes models will get decimated as potential used buyers stay far away from a $15,000 brake job.
With all this said, there's one potential saving grace, and that's a simple conversion back to steel brakes instead of a full replacement of the carbon ceramics -- much like Land Rover and Audi allroad owners often ditch their fancy (but expensive) air suspension when it fails and instead revert to springs. Unfortunately, I'm told it just isn't that simple: Steel brakes don't bolt right back on, and in the Porsche world there's only one aftermarket company (or maybe a small handful of companies) offering a conversion for people facing exactly this problem. As the carbon ceramic option is relatively new in Mercedes and BMW models, such a company hasn't yet sprouted up for these cars.
And so, if you're buying an AMG and you want to keep it for only a few years, carbon ceramics might be a good idea -- because they're relatively maintenance-free compared to normal brakes. But if you start creeping up on the 7- or 8-year old mark and you go to sell your carbon ceramic-equipped car ... don't be surprised if it's avoided like the plague."
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      12-20-2019, 07:00 PM   #984
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Ok cut the BS, who is ordering one?
I go back and forth.

Very on the fence.

I can only drive my sports cars 8 months of the year so storage for 4-5 months depending on the first snow and final melt.

To add insult to that, my M3CS was vandalized while in storage earlier this week. Just a broken window has turned in to roughly a 14k claim. We'll know forsure on January 6th when BMW Individual opens back up to order all the damaged leather. There is also no ETA because apparently the parts are made to order. We'll see on January 6th. But that also has me on the fence because this has turned in to such a PITA.
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      12-20-2019, 07:30 PM   #985
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I go back and forth.
Very on the fence.
I can only drive my sports cars 8 months of the year so storage for 4-5 months depending on the first snow and final melt.
To add insult to that, my M3CS was vandalized while in storage earlier this week. Just a broken window has turned in to roughly a 14k claim. We'll know forsure on January 6th when BMW Individual opens back up to order all the damaged leather. There is also no ETA because apparently the parts are made to order. We'll see on January 6th. But that also has me on the fence because this has turned in to such a PITA.
Why? I mean, who the hell just decides to break into a storage garage and vandalize a vehicle? I thought Canadians were above that kind of shit?!

Sorry dude.

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      12-20-2019, 07:34 PM   #986
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Originally Posted by DDS2015 View Post
I go back and forth.
Very on the fence.
I can only drive my sports cars 8 months of the year so storage for 4-5 months depending on the first snow and final melt.
To add insult to that, my M3CS was vandalized while in storage earlier this week. Just a broken window has turned in to roughly a 14k claim. We'll know forsure on January 6th when BMW Individual opens back up to order all the damaged leather. There is also no ETA because apparently the parts are made to order. We'll see on January 6th. But that also has me on the fence because this has turned in to such a PITA.
These fudgers won’t leave us to enjoy our cars.
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      12-20-2019, 07:39 PM   #987
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I go back and forth.
Very on the fence.
I can only drive my sports cars 8 months of the year so storage for 4-5 months depending on the first snow and final melt.
To add insult to that, my M3CS was vandalized while in storage earlier this week. Just a broken window has turned in to roughly a 14k claim. We'll know for sure on January 6th when BMW Individual opens back up to order all the damaged leather. There is also no ETA because apparently the parts are made to order. We'll see on January 6th. But that also has me on the fence because this has turned in to such a PITA.
Sorry to hear about that frustrating encounter. Give your significant other a good hug - it won't repair your car, but at least it reminds you time and time again of what really matters.
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      12-22-2019, 12:41 AM   #988
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Originally Posted by medphysdave View Post
I'm still planning to order one. I've done a complete turn from HS with gold wheels to the full on clown car spec. Anyone have an idea of what the dealer cost is for the CCB option? M curious if it's possible to get CCB for a low enough cost to make it enticing.

I can't justify them at $8500 since right after purchase depreciation will immediately be $8500 + probably $5k. I don't mind the pay to play, but setting money on fire is a bit rich of a game for me.

The first year you'll probably turn a profit as I believe there will be enough folks that are willing to pay, but won't get an allocation.
From an M4CS invoice:
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      12-22-2019, 12:57 AM   #989
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Ok cut the BS, who is ordering one?
I'm still in i think. I've had a deposit down since May 2016 (...back when the rumors of the now M2C was going to be the M2CSL or M2GTS )

Misano Blue and black wheels, Manual transmission and Cup2 tires if they are a no (or low) cost option. No CCB's for me; too rich for my blood and I don't really see the benefit for the very high cost. Planning to do European Delivery and hopefully if I can swing it without getting fired , will drag that out for a 3 week extravaganza!
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      12-22-2019, 02:20 AM   #990
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Switzerland; there will be 100 M2 CS for the country (4th biggest M market worldwide) with only one config (subaru stylish), orders directly taken from BWM (then no clue if it gets delivered by reseller based on zip)...
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