[nothingman]

I'm about to pull the trigger on an intercooler upgrade and have narrowed it down between the CSF and Wagner EVO 2 Competition. I was pretty set on the Wagner until I came across this post on 2addicts comparing the two:

http://www.2addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1439000

The test indicated average intake temps of 30-31c (87-88f) with the Wagner doing 3-4-5th gear pulls compared to the CSF pulls which by the "end of the 4th pull IAT's were touching 26.5c (80f). So around 4-5c (8-9f) cooler than the Wagner unit."

During a low speed run up to 240 kph (150 mph) run, the Wagner intake temps start around 20c (69f) and go up to 33c (92-93f) compared to the CSF where intake temps start at 25c (77f) and peak at 30c (87f). A similar difference of 3c (5-6f) between the two in favor the CSF.

How much difference will these temps of 3-5c (5-9f) between the two make in the real world if I eventually plan to go PS2 looking for 500+whp?

PROS/CONS:

Wagner EVO 2 Comp intercooler
- lighter (19lbs)
- tube & fin design
- OEM fitment with charge pipes
- less surface area (14 rows)

CSF intercooler
- heavier (~30lbs)
- bar & plate design
- more surface area (17 rows)

Originally Posted by Darkiedm4

Conclusion:The CSF can absorb more heat and it shows in the IAT's. In the longer runs IAT's stay clearly lower and even when you do back to back pulls where a bar and plate type core would be at a disadvantage compared to a tube and fin type core it still has lower IAT's. These results are from a N55 running around 480hp at these boost levels. I think on a stock turbo (tuned or not) the IAT's will stay very very low. Even on this setup IAT's are very good and there is a clear improvement from the previous gen fmics. We will see to get you a few more runs in at 24-25 psi boost from low to high speed to see the IAT's. Those will be added to the post later.

If I had a N55 engine and still in need of an intercooler or looking for an improvement in IAT's this is the one I would get. I heard from CSF that it will be available for purchase in the next month. We will also add these to our lineup like we have done with the CSF S55 products.r

[Yiruna]

How often do you track your car?

[nothingman]

Originally Posted by Yiruna

How often do you track your car?

Never, but I drive the piss out of it on back roads.

[FaRKle!]

I started with the CSF (which is lighter than the 30lbs you state, I measured 26lbs), and ended up with the Wagner EVO 2 Comp (due to fitment and lag issues with my N47 setup).

Performance-wise I doubt you'll see any difference on the street between the two (and I certainly didn't feel any difference on the top end side). Looking at an air density calculator (assuming 50% humidity), it looks like the difference between the two from DarkiedM4's data (and if we increase the temp delta between the two to account for the higher ambient temp of the CSF run, so 81F for the CSF vs 93F of the Wagner, both at 18PSI) is ~33g per cubic meter more air density for the CSF, about 2.3%.

[ceedawg]

When I pmd DarkiedM4 he still highly recommended the Wagner Comp Evo 2 and remember the tests were done different times of the day which also affected the ambient temp graph. He mentioned that the Wagner Evo2 was tested at the hottest time of the day compared to the CSF and ATM FMIC.

Again I was steered to the Wagner EVo 2 Comp, lighter tube and fin and much higher flow. Also far less issues with bolting up the Wagner in comparison if I remember correctly as well.

[nothingman]

Thanks all. I’ve read about the installation issues with the CSF regarding the inlet and outlet not being at the same angle as the stock IC making the charge pipes difficult to install, and that coupled with the all the great things I’ve heard about the Comp 2 were enough to sway me to go Wagner. I just ordered it from x-ph.com. Hope they have them in stock?!!

[FaRKle!]

Originally Posted by nothingman

I just ordered it from x-ph.com. Hope they have them in stock?!!

When I ordered mine from X-PH it was drop shipped from Wagner in California. Arrived very quickly.

[PeterPure]

Originally Posted by ceedawg

When I pmd DarkiedM4 he still highly recommended the Wagner Comp Evo 2 and remember the tests were done different times of the day which also affected the ambient temp graph. He mentioned that the Wagner Evo2 was tested at the hottest time of the day compared to the CSF and ATM FMIC.

Again I was steered to the Wagner EVo 2 Comp, lighter tube and fin and much higher flow. Also far less issues with bolting up the Wagner in comparison if I remember correctly as well.

Just want to clarify a few of the above points.
- You told me you were going to do trackdays with the car. For trackdays a tube and fin core is recommended due to better cooling on moments off throttle/braking. Once a bar and plate core is hot (CSF or wagner evo 2 performance), it will take more time to cool down. On the street you usually don't have that issue as you can't go WOT long enough for it to heat. Especially with the big core.
- Also at the time we were in touch the CSF units were out of stock. Another reason for you to get a wagner as you did not want to wait.
- My comparison test between Wagner EVO2 Comp and CSF were done in the evening with no difference in ambient temps. few years back when the EVO2 wagners were released we tested ATM vs Wagner evo2 comp/perf and at that time the ATM was tested in the morning with cooler ambient temps. The evo2 comp during that test was tested late afternoon with noticeable hotter IAT's. At that time the CSF was not even released yet. This dates back to I believe 2015.
- As for mounting the CSF fmic on M2 there is plenty of room and really no issue. We mounted it also on M135/235 without any issues. Obviously some guys must be doing mounting themselves in their garage and I can imagine it is a bit more of a challenge doing it that way.

So just to avoid confusion I will summarize:
- CSF has better cooling than wagner evo2 fmic. Bigger core means more heat absorption.
- Tube and fin cores (evo2 comp model) are better suited for trackduty.

Kind regards,
Peter

[ceedawg]

Originally Posted by Darkiedm4

Just want to clarify a few of the above points.
- You told me you were going to do trackdays with the car. For trackdays a tube and fin core is recommended due to better cooling on moments off throttle/braking. Once a bar and plate core is hot (CSF or wagner evo 2 performance), it will take more time to cool down. On the street you usually don't have that issue as you can't go WOT long enough for it to heat. Especially with the big core.
- Also at the time we were in touch the CSF units were out of stock. Another reason for you to get a wagner as you did not want to wait.
- My comparison test between Wagner EVO2 Comp and CSF were done in the evening with no difference in ambient temps. few years back when the EVO2 wagners were released we tested ATM vs Wagner evo2 comp/perf and at that time the ATM was tested in the morning with cooler ambient temps. The evo2 comp during that test was tested late afternoon with noticeable hotter IAT's. At that time the CSF was not even released yet. This dates back to I believe 2015.
- As for mounting the CSF fmic on M2 there is plenty of room and really no issue. We mounted it also on M135/235 without any issues. Obviously some guys must be doing mounting themselves in their garage and I can imagine it is a bit more of a challenge doing it that way.

So just to avoid confusion I will summarize:
- CSF has better cooling than wagner evo2 fmic. Bigger core means more heat absorption.
- Tube and fin cores (evo2 comp model) are better suited for trackduty.

Kind regards,
Peter

Thanks for the re clarification and yes all you said above is true.

Still the Wagner Comp Evo 2 remains to be the highly recommended fmic to get. If the CSF was available at the time it would have still been a hard choice to make and as Farlkle’s mentioned he has had both,did not notice much of a difference and wound up going with the Wagner.

I guess the final decision for me was also based on the higher flow,light weight of the Wager Comp 2 and difficulty others were having with the angle of the inlet and the outlet in mounting the charge pipes on the CSF vs the simpler install of the Wagner.

Explained
http://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...&highlight=CSF

I think it is still a tough choice as both FMICs perform as promised.

[CosmosMpower]

What is typical street price between the two? Do both solve high IAT and allow full engine power for hot summer track days?

[ceedawg]

Originally Posted by CosmosMpower

What is typical street price between the two? Do both solve high IAT and allow full engine power for hot summer track days?

DarkiedM4 did threads on BOTH FMIC's, CSF and Wagner Comp Evo 2. Check his threads. Both do a very good job of lowering IATs during track duty according to his tests. Again as stated, Wagner would be the better FMIC for track duty.

Post 1 here is about one of those threads. Get prices from Mike of Extreme

[nothingman]

Originally Posted by CosmosMpower

What is typical street price between the two?

Around $900 for the Wagner Comp 2 and $600 for the CSF.

[CosmosMpower]

Originally Posted by nothingman

Around $900 for the Wagner Comp 2 and $600 for the CSF.

Thanks, do either require any cutting to get them to fit? I prefer the most OEM setup possible with direct bolt in.

[ceedawg]

Originally Posted by CosmosMpower

Thanks, do either require any cutting to get them to fit? I prefer the most OEM setup possible with direct bolt in.

Nope no cutting and I purchased my Wagner Comp 2 from Mike for 765.00 sale price. Call him it will not cost 900.00

[RedCarrot]

Originally Posted by CosmosMpower

Thanks, do either require any cutting to get them to fit? I prefer the most OEM setup possible with direct bolt in.

Neither one requires cutting. I happened to have the Evo2 Comp installed by a shop last weekend. Straight up plug and play

[RedCarrot]

As Darkiedm4 noted, one of the inherent trade-offs between bar&plate and tune&fin is the former better withstands initial heat loads but not as good in dissipating built up heat.

Other tradeoffs are the former costs less but weighs more (6-7 lbs in this particular comparison).

I would recommend picking a core size that best suits your need and not automatically go for the largest one available. Larger core size obviously weighs more but it has a larger vacuum as well. That means it takes a little longer to fill that vacuum before air gets pushed to the intake piping, thereby increasing turbo lag.

I got a fantastic deal on a slightly used Evo2 Comp thanks to NOLAGUY. If I were to buy one new, I could've just as easily gone with the smaller Evo1 Comp given my NorthEast climate.

[ceedawg]

Originally Posted by RedCarrot

As Darkiedm4 noted, one of the inherent trade-offs between bar&plate and tune&fin is the former better withstands initial heat loads but not as good in dissipating built up heat.

Other tradeoffs are the former costs less but weighs more (6-7 lbs in this particular comparison).

I would recommend picking a core size that best suits your need and not automatically go for the largest one available. Larger core size obviously weighs more but it has a larger vacuum as well. That means it takes a little longer to fill that vacuum before air gets pushed to the intake piping, thereby increasing turbo lag.

I got a fantastic deal on a slightly used Evo2 Comp thanks to NOLAGUY. If I were to buy one new, I could've just as easily gone with the smaller Evo1 Comp given my NorthEast climate.

And Some Folks having issues installing the CSF properly with certain or all CPs due to piping angles on the CSF FMIC

http://www.2addicts.com/forums/showt...6#post23169726

[Nezil]

Originally Posted by ceedawg

And Some Folks having issues installing the CSF properly with certain or all CPs due to piping angles on the CSF FMIC

http://www.2addicts.com/forums/showt...6#post23169726

Now I'm worried... I have a CSF on order, and FTP boost and charge pipes being delivered today. Am I going to have an issue fitting this combination of parts?

[CSF Cooling]

Originally Posted by Nezil

Now I'm worried... I have a CSF on order, and FTP boost and charge pipes being delivered today. Am I going to have an issue fitting this combination of parts?

Over 100 pieces sold so far, many of them installed with aftermarket charge pipes and boost pipes - shouldn't be a problem

[ceedawg]

Originally Posted by Nezil

Now I'm worried... I have a CSF on order, and FTP boost and charge pipes being delivered today. Am I going to have an issue fitting this combination of parts?

All I can tell you is some people experienced problems and some people have not I'll assume based on FMIC's claimed sold. Report back or start a thread of your install when the CSF arrives.

[chief1richard]

Originally Posted by RedCarrot

As noted, one of the inherent trade-offs between bar&plate and tune&fin is the former better withstands initial heat loads but not as good in dissipating built up heat.

Other tradeoffs are the former costs less but weighs more (6-7 lbs in this particular comparison).

I would recommend picking a core size that best suits your need and not automatically go for the largest one available. Larger core size obviously weighs more but it has a larger vacuum as well. That means it takes a little longer to fill that vacuum before air gets pushed to the intake piping, thereby increasing turbo lag.

I got a fantastic deal on a slightly used Evo2 Comp thanks to NOLAGUY. If I were to buy one new, I could've just as easily gone with the smaller Evo1 Comp given my NorthEast climate.

I am considering a Wagner Evo 2 Competition IC for my M2. Do you notice much turbo lag? What are your mods? Mine will be Charge pipe, and Wagner IC. Don't know if I should go with Evo 1 or 2. I also plan on a BM3 tune. Stage 1, or 2. I track 6x a year, and rest is DD.

[chief1richard]

Originally Posted by ceedawg

Nope no cutting and I purchased my Wagner Comp 2 from Mike for 765.00 sale price. Call him it will not cost 900.00

i am about to buy a Wagner Comp 2 IC. Do you notice any Turbo Lag with yours? What are your mods? I have a 18 M2 and mods will be charge pipe, and Wagner 1 or 2 IC. Also would like a BM3 tune down the road.