06-10-2018, 07:55 PM | #111 | |
Lieutenant
437
Rep 553
Posts |
Quote:
I wonder, if a CEL hasn't been activated would that suggest the car's emissions are compliant? I can understand the dealer issues with the car you linked to in that thread. He had a catless dp and no CEL which would reasonably suggest other modifications to defeat stock engine management. Here I think the question concerns a catted dp and those with the HJS cores don't cause a CEL. The instances I've read with CEL issues there are other mods (admittedly though some minor). |
|
Appreciate
0
|
06-21-2018, 11:49 AM | #112 |
1006
Rep 1,653
Posts |
Hey everyone,
Just wanted to clear up some misconceptions about voiding your dealer warranty. Due to the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, originally passed in 1975, a company cannot void your warranty simply because you have modified a product on your car. This goes for Sport Cat Downpipes, Catbypass Downpipes, or any other modification. If there is damage to your car that you want covered under your warranty, the company has to prove that it was the modification that led to the failure of their parts in order for them to void your warranty. Granted, this can be somewhat of a gray area and companies may try to dispute your warranty claim, possibly just hoping you walk away and try to get it fixed elsewhere. A real life example; we had a customer with a Fabspeed Catbypass Downpipe and X-Pipe. The turbo on their car failed, and the dealer tried to claim it was due to lack of back pressure caused by the Downpipe. We stood behind the customer and pushed back, and the company folded and covered the damage under warranty. If you somehow blew out your Sport Cats, and your engine failed and the dealer found pieces of the Catalytic Convertor in the engine then that would be a good example of something they would be able to void your warranty over and have proof to back it up. Remember though, the company has to prove that the modification was the reason for the failure. The burden of proof is on them, not you. If a company tells your or implies otherwise, they are misguiding you. It’s very important to know your rights as a consumer. I’ll link to a couple good articles that go more in-depth. More on the Magnuson-Moss Act | https://www.mlmlaw.com/library/guide...s/undermag.htm More on Car Warranties & Modifications Specifically | http://lehtoslaw.com/will-modificati...-car-warranty/ & https://www.autotrader.com/car-shopp...cations-224816 |
Appreciate
3
|
06-22-2018, 06:36 PM | #113 |
Private First Class
71
Rep 112
Posts
Drives: 2017 BMW M2 - Mineral Gray
Join Date: May 2018
Location: WA
|
I'm going to try to do a DIY DP install here soon, tracking this thread.
|
Appreciate
0
|
06-24-2018, 05:47 PM | #114 | |
Captain
472
Rep 682
Posts |
Quote:
__________________
2004 E46 ///M3 SMG Convertible Carbon Blk\Imola
2017 LBB ///M2 DCT 2013 Porsche Boxster S |
|
Appreciate
0
|
06-24-2018, 07:22 PM | #115 | |
Wheelsucker
200
Rep 1,280
Posts |
Quote:
is now good. We did use a lift which made it much easier. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
06-24-2018, 09:51 PM | #116 |
First Lieutenant
249
Rep 391
Posts |
I just swapped my down pipe again. I found it easier this time because I only raised the front on my car the height of my Ramps plus 2 inch thick planks, I jack my car onto the Ramps as my Ramps slide around my ribtrax tile floor. This made the working height to the top clamp perfect while laying on the floor, very easy to reach and hold. Last time I had car up on jack stands and I couldn’t quite reach the top clamp without a bit of a sit up position with fully reached out arms.
Also I learned that spreading the v-clamp with another small bolt and two nuts opens it up a bit to make it real easy to get back on. These two tricks sped the whole process up by a lot. |
Appreciate
0
|
06-24-2018, 10:39 PM | #117 | |
Major
985
Rep 1,153
Posts |
Quote:
My dealer, through my service rep, knows I have a 200 cell DP (happens to be a Fabspeed.) He has not said a bloody thing about it, other than he likes the sound it gives the exhaust Put it this way--I'd be more worried about other possible mods that increase boost, etc., than I would about a catted DP. But even then, the burden is on the dealer trying to avoid the warranty to establish the causal link. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
06-25-2018, 10:34 AM | #119 | |
Major General
5556
Rep 5,372
Posts |
Quote:
This is extremely misleading. I think you guys need to go back and read very carefully through the MMA so that you can fully understand the intent and purpose. The MMA was developed so that DIYers and non-manufacturer repair facilities could service cars with non-OEM parts built to OEM specifications/standards without risk of the manufacturer claiming the said non-OEM parts would/could/did cause damage to the vehicle and thus voiding any remaining warranty. The MMA was designed to cover things like oil and air filters, non-OEM fluids, windshields, re-man axles, exhaust systems, brake pads and rotors, etc. What the MMA is NOT designed to cover is parts that do not meet OEM specifications. Your downpipes do not meet the intent of the MMA because they are not built to OEM specifications, specifically catalytic converter cell count. Running you downpipes on a publically-driven car is also a violation of the federal Clean Air Act and thus, ALL state air regulatory rules and regulations as well. Yes, it is on the automaker to prove that your aftermarket part was the direct cause and/or contributing factor of a mechanical failure. However, it would be incredibly easy for BMW to claim that a downpipe was the cause of most any engine or drivetrain failure because the part makes the motor operate outside of it's designed parameters (i.e., the DME) and it increases power thus potentially compromising drivetrain reliability. You can claim the MMA all you want if you're faced with this issue, but any court would side with BMW. Plus, BMW has a very large legal group on retainer. They know they could tie you up in court for a long time and they know most people aren't going to fight it because they need their car and don't have the time or money to fight a legal battle. Many need to realize that the dealer isn't the one that covers the warranty, it's BMW that makes the call. With many of the powertrain claims, the claim goes through BMW for approval. You might have a mod friendly dealer, but their hands are tied as BMW is the one that calls the shots. BMW and any other automaker isn't in the business to support your personnel modification and racing program. If you want to add more power and performance to your car with aftermarket parts then you should plan for the worst and expect BMW to deny coverage for most any powertrain related failure. The other option is to buy a faster/better performing car in stock form.
__________________
The forest was shrinking, but the Trees kept voting for the Axe, for the Axe was clever and convinced the Trees that because his handle was made of wood, he was one of them.
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
06-25-2018, 03:59 PM | #120 |
1006
Rep 1,653
Posts |
Sorry, but I don’t see how what we said was misleading in anyway.
You seem to be very focused on what the MMA was “designed” to cover and not what it actually legally covers. We have over 20 years of experience in this industry and are very familiar with how the warranty process is treated. Yes, if you mod your car the dealership will likely be on the lookout. Yes, the company might try to deny warranty coverage on the basis that your mod caused it. You should be prepared to deal with those scenarios if you are making modifications to your car. I thought we made those points very clear in our pervious post and I apologize if that was not conveyed properly. You are correct that it would be easy for a company to CLAIM that a downpipe was the cause of an engine failure, but for them to PROVE that is an entirely different story. I’m not sure where you are getting your information as our catalytic convertors are legal in 49/50 states. If you would like to discuss any of this more in-depth you’re welcome to shoot me a PM or give me a call. |
Appreciate
1
nioh_lbbm21716.50 |
06-25-2018, 05:46 PM | #121 | |
Lieutenant Colonel
1717
Rep 1,899
Posts |
Quote:
At the state level, however the sport cat is legal. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
06-26-2018, 09:58 AM | #122 | |
1006
Rep 1,653
Posts |
Quote:
They have always been illegal on the Federal level, however, we are not aware of any known cases where the end user has had legal trouble on the Federal level because of a modification like this. There have been cases where they crackdown on shops, but the customer is normally protected by State Laws/jurisdiction. I am not trying to convince anyone of anything, I am just trying to give an accurate depiction of what to expect. We just want to make sure all the facts are laid out for you all to see and then make your own determination on the level of risks/benefits of these types of modifications. Let me know if anyone has any questions. |
|
Appreciate
2
nioh_lbbm21716.50 McGary911472.00 |
06-27-2018, 07:20 PM | #123 | |
Major General
5556
Rep 5,372
Posts |
Quote:
Tampering with and/or modifying any emissions control system to the point that it is less effective that way it came from the factory is illegal under Federal law thus is also illegal at the state level. This would be the case with any aftermarket DP for these cars as the DPs all run lower cell count catalytic converters. Will you go to jail or get a fine for running a DP? Probably not, but it is most definitely illegal.
__________________
The forest was shrinking, but the Trees kept voting for the Axe, for the Axe was clever and convinced the Trees that because his handle was made of wood, he was one of them.
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
06-28-2018, 09:13 AM | #124 | |
1006
Rep 1,653
Posts |
Quote:
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
06-28-2018, 10:23 AM | #125 |
Brigadier General
814
Rep 3,953
Posts |
That does not make it legal.
__________________
2021 M2 Comp Sunset Orange |Black with orange Stitching Dakota Leather|Executive Pkg|DCT
|
Appreciate
0
|
06-28-2018, 11:09 AM | #126 | |
Major General
5556
Rep 5,372
Posts |
Quote:
Like David1 noted, passing sniffer tests and not throwing CELs certainly does not mean the part is emission compliant/legal. Surely you've heard of the legal and criminal issues VW is in with respect to illegal modification of its diesel engine control systems.
__________________
The forest was shrinking, but the Trees kept voting for the Axe, for the Axe was clever and convinced the Trees that because his handle was made of wood, he was one of them.
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
06-28-2018, 02:09 PM | #127 |
Moderator
29419
Rep 13,107
Posts |
To all: if you want to get your message across, please keep the discussion serene.
Avoid presenting interpretation as facts and vice versa. Steer clear of getting personal. Thank you.
__________________
///M is art ↔ Artemis
|
Appreciate
0
|
06-28-2018, 02:23 PM | #128 | |
Space Force - 4 Star General
11463
Rep 3,264
Posts |
Quote:
For the rest of you guys (Not directed at you, Bruce): Voiding my warranty is right up there with rickets on my list of things I worry about every day. As for violating any Federal emissions laws, I suspect the Federal government has better things to do than dedicate resources to hunting me and my Fabspeed sport cat down. If someone finds themselves overly concerned with voiding warranties or getting busted by the Feds, the solution is abundantly simple: Don't buy a sport cat. Problem solved. All this hand wringing about how to interpret the MM act or is the sport cat federally illegal but OK with the states is futile. If you are concerned, don't buy one. Move along. Last edited by DETRoadster; 06-28-2018 at 02:37 PM.. |
|
Appreciate
1
Blurbo311197.00 |
06-28-2018, 03:00 PM | #129 | |
Major General
5556
Rep 5,372
Posts |
Quote:
Now for Fabspeed, as a company making and selling the part, they are in very dangerous waters for specifically stating that their catted downpipe is 49 state legal because it certainly is not. It's also at odds with how they advertise the legality of the device on their website which states the following: "Complies with most emissions regulations (NOTE: It the purchaser's responsibility to verify legality and compliance in their region.)" Putting my legal hat on, this a better statement, but I could still see an EPA attorney taking issue with this as it does not totally convey the legality of the part to the customer and any attorney would rip a part the word "most". LOL Currently, the maximum EPA penalty for Clean Air Act (CAA) violations is $93,750 per day, per violation. EPA takes air very seriously as the CAA violation penalty schedule is one of the highest compared to water quality and waste disposal/management. If I were Fabspeed, I would: 1) Not say my downpipes are 49 state legal because they are not and it's misleading to the buyer. The buyer should fully know what they are buying into. 2) Have an attorney review their wording about the legality of the part as presented on their website. 3) Fabspeed needs to have an attorney convey to them the intent of the MMA because they have interpreted it incorrectly.
__________________
The forest was shrinking, but the Trees kept voting for the Axe, for the Axe was clever and convinced the Trees that because his handle was made of wood, he was one of them.
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
06-28-2018, 03:07 PM | #130 | ||
Space Force - 4 Star General
11463
Rep 3,264
Posts |
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
Appreciate
1
Blurbo311197.00 |
06-28-2018, 05:36 PM | #131 | |
Major General
5556
Rep 5,372
Posts |
Quote:
I completely agree, it is totally up to you on of you modify your car. I've owned many illegally modified cars in my car all while being an environmental consultant. I am not a treehugger
__________________
The forest was shrinking, but the Trees kept voting for the Axe, for the Axe was clever and convinced the Trees that because his handle was made of wood, he was one of them.
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
06-29-2018, 09:25 AM | #132 |
Captain
259
Rep 699
Posts |
When the EPA starts coming after black smoke spewing diesels I'll start getting concerned. Until that point in time this is an absolute non issue.
|
Post Reply |
Bookmarks |
|
|