[richard in NC]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

Poochie

I guess there is a reason why I never disagree with you or, at least, argue if I do

That 135i actually looks to my eye about the same size as the M2 and has a sunroof. . . yet some 300 lbs lighter than the M2C (and, from what I looked up, about 150 lbs lighter than the M2).

So, as you indicate, component parts add up over time.

///AVM

I believe it is a lot of small things adding up. The 2 series is a few inches longer, wider, etc than the 1 series coupe. Higher crash standards make for a heavier shell. There are more standard features. For the M2C, the S55 added weight for oil coolers, etc. Plus there are larger wheels, tires, brakes, etc that add pounds. Plus as mentioned to make the 2 series and M2C affordable, they couldn't do the carbon fiber roof and other components, as well as other lighter weight and higher cost materials like the M3/M4 has.

[CSBM5]

The biggest single item of weight difference in the M3 from E9x to F8x was the Li battery in the F80 which saved 31 lbs over the AGM battery. I'm glad they didn't include that in the M2C even though it would have saved 31lbs. The MSRP of the Li battery is $1945.94.

[flybigjet]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

The MSRP of the Li battery is $1945.94.

WOW!!!

[///MCollection]

I was recently told that all car manufacturers including bmw pass specs to the component manufacturers of the weight saving there looking for. The example was ZF which owns sachs who make bmw clutches and they were saying the m8 clutch bolts were changed to m7 or something and the clutch pressure plate metal thickness was being reduced to save weight. I guess if all components are treated like this weight is lost on a larger scale.

Regarding the Porsche thing I tried a Macan before the X5 and I've driven cayman's too and for me it feels like driving looking through a letter box. I also find all the cockpit buttons really cluttered. The m2c has different driving dynamics and even if it's heavier and more cumbersome I do prefer it as a car to be in hence my choice. Also took the x5m over the macan for the same reason. Yes the Porsche brand may handle better but the m2 is more capable than me anyway.

[///AVM]

I'm not an executive for BMW, so I have no special insight. . . but I'm starting to question how it would make sense for BMW to release a 21' M2C at this point?

As currently seen with M3 and M4, it takes years from conception to release of a new model. Based upon everything I've read on this forum, BMW is already gearing up for next M2 iteration. . . which includes discontinuing current iteration.

Complete speculation on my part, but it seems a most reasonable expectation at this point is that BMW use up the 'parts bins' to simply build out some final 20' chassis once this pandemic passes.

That said, BMW could use the parts bins to build out a few hundred final M2C chassis as 21' model. A close out classic!

I would consider it a form of poetic justice if the 21' M2C were a rarer breed than the M2CS. . . but probably just wandering from speculation to wishful thinking at this point

///AVM

[JCZ5]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

I'm not an executive for BMW, so I have no special insight. . . but I'm starting to question how it would make sense for BMW to release a 21' M2C at this point?

As currently seen with M3 and M4, it takes years from conception to release of a new model. Based upon everything I've read on this forum, BMW is already gearing up for next M2 iteration. . . which includes discontinuing current iteration.

Complete speculation on my part, but it seems a most reasonable expectation at this point is that BMW use up the 'parts bins' to simply build out some final 20' chassis once this pandemic passes.

That said, BMW could use the parts bins to build out a few hundred final M2C chassis as 21' model. A close out classic!

I would consider it a form of poetic justice if the 21' M2C were a rarer breed than the M2CS. . . but probably just wandering from speculation to wishful thinking at this point

///AVM

Oh don't say that! You know I've been waiting for the MY21 to be announced

[///AVM]

Originally Posted by jcz5

oh don't say that! You know i've been waiting for the my21 to be announced

JC

pure speculation

///AVM

[VIERsr]

Here the production of MY21 F87 started on 1st March.
Highlights:
- price increased
- tyre repair kit (2VC) is not part of the standard equipment anymore (60€)
- new black arches on the fenders
- new engine code 1J31 (M2CS)

That's all, but it's even more than MY20 (black taillights)

[Poochie]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

JC

pure speculation

///AVM

However, you're probably 100% on the money..

These latest events are unprecedented and are not something that a contingency plan had ever catered for.

Once businesses resumes; they will have free reign to go in either direction, without any set rhyme or reasoning and still not be possible faulted by their shareholders or anyone up the food chain, since it was a situation beyond their control.

Maybe, as we assume, they call an audible and axe the planned last year M2C model, in an attempt to save a buck and start with a clean slate, segueing into the next generation of models. Which, from a logical standpoint, makes an abundance of sense. I'm sure the final year of any model doesn't reap as much profit, as a brand new, full-featured, exciting model; that is allotted all marketing hype and fanfare, attached to its release.

It might be exactly BMW feels they need, in order to kickstart consumer passion again, getting them back on course, of patrons reopening their wallet, in what I predict will be a shaky economy.

The last model year of an automobile offering is merely to help subsidize the development cost and possible squeezed out every last bit, from that said model they invested in, before it completely run its course and lineage. While it also buys them more time, for development gestation of the next offering. They can simple choose to cut their loses and move forward to the G Series.

Like you said, it's anyone guess, we're just spitballing here but I'm going to bet that when the world initially reboots, predictability is not a luxury we would be afford, in many facets of life.

Disclaimer: This is merely my humble opinion, I could be wrong.. #DontQuoteMe

[BigKutta]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

I'm not an executive for BMW, so I have no special insight. . . but I'm starting to question how it would make sense for BMW to release a 21' M2C at this point?

As currently seen with M3 and M4, it takes years from conception to release of a new model. Based upon everything I've read on this forum, BMW is already gearing up for next M2 iteration. . . which includes discontinuing current iteration.

Complete speculation on my part, but it seems a most reasonable expectation at this point is that BMW use up the 'parts bins' to simply build out some final 20' chassis once this pandemic passes.

That said, BMW could use the parts bins to build out a few hundred final M2C chassis as 21' model. A close out classic!

I would consider it a form of poetic justice if the 21' M2C were a rarer breed than the M2CS. . . but probably just wandering from speculation to wishful thinking at this point

///AVM

The 2020 M2C and the 2021 M2C are going to be the same car (sans wishful thinking by the Bimmerfest memebers), so how does it matter if its 2020 or 2021? Most likely they'll just call it the 2021

[BigKutta]

Originally Posted by Poochie

I'm sure the final year of any model doesn't reap as much profit, as a brand new, full-featured, exciting model; that is allotted all marketing hype and fanfare, attached to its release.

Not sure about that as a blanket statement. The M2, which is a desirbale car will be profitable, and more so as most of its related investments are mostly depreciated already. This is the reason why manufacturers create CS and other models, because you reaping high margins.

While I'm not sure how much BMW will pull up the next M2 timeline (if any movement in release), I dont think they can move up the release by say 12 months. So I think the current M2 still has some legs (maybe not as many as before COVID)

[Poochie]

Originally Posted by BigKutta

Not sure about that as a blanket statement. The M2, which is a desirbale car will be profitable, and more so as most of its related investments are mostly depreciated already. This is the reason why manufacturers create CS and other models, because you reaping high margins.

While I'm not sure how much BMW will pull up the next M2 timeline (if any movement in release), I dont think they can move up the release by say 12 months. So I think the current M2 still has some legs (maybe not as many as before COVID)

The M2 and 2 Series model in general are the least popular vehicle, i.e. least profitable, that BMW offers. It's very niche automobile, as consumers are just not into small, two door vehicles.

They average around 6,000 to 10,000 units, in total, per year, compare to hundreds of thousand SUVs that moves.

I was merely speculating on the M2s future based on the fact that we're halfway through April, the factories are still on hiatus and there is no mention of its future, thus far.

Just saying, if BMW becomes backlogged, I would assume that their least profitable vehicles would be destine for the chopping block.

[BigKutta]

Originally Posted by Poochie

The M2 and 2 Series model in general are least popular vehicle, i.e. least profitable, that BMW offers. It's very niche automobile, as consumers are just not into a small, two door vehicles.

They average around 6,000 to 10,000 units, in total, per year, compare to hundreds of thousand SUVs that moves.

I was merely speculating on the M2s future based on the fact that we're halfway through April, the factories are still on hiatus and there is no mention of its future, thus far.

Just saying, if BMW becomes backlogged, I would assume that their least profitable vehicles would be destine for the chopping block.

Perhaps, but with flex manufacturing and broad sharing of parts and engines, niche vehicles are not unprofitable. Hence you see dozens of BMW models today, versus just 3-5 two decades ago.

[///AVM]

Originally Posted by BigKutta

The 2020 M2C and the 2021 M2C are going to be the same car (sans wishful thinking by the Bimmerfest memebers), so how does it matter if its 2020 or 2021? Most likely they'll just call it the 2021

Kutta

I am the first to admit that current events have me looking for ways to pass time, so please forgive my fruitless speculation and desire to engage in discussion.

I honestly have zero value for ‘exclusivity’ in making an automobile purchase. Nonetheless, as witnessed by a seemingly large number of prospective M2CS buyers, exclusivity does appear to be important to others.

So, you are very likely correct in stating that - if/when released - the 21’ M2C will be very much the same as the 20’ model. The difference is the 21’ would be the last iteration of the chassis and, IF limited in production numbers, would make it more desirable to potential buyers who value exclusivity. Although unlikely, BMW could even offer something desirable - not offered in the 20’ model - and the appeal goes up even further.

My suggestion of a limited release is not intentional, as with the M2CS. Rather, an unintended consequence of world events. A matter of BMW simply adjusting timeline and production of an outgoing chassis iteration.

Regarding minimal change being insignificant, I would play devil’s advocate when it comes to exclusivity. The NUMBER of productions is arguably more important than the actual changes made. For example, the 1955 double die Lincoln cent is still just a cent with alteration that would be imperceptible to nearly anyone not looking for it. Yet, the rare NUMBER makes that cent worth an estimated $700 to $15,000 . . . compared to single die counterpart that is worth, well, a penny.

Then again, as you suggest, the most likely scenario is that BMW simply uses up existing parts bin in a farewell, last-batch production of the M2C as the 20’ model.

///AVM

[BigKutta]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

Kutta

I am the first to admit that current events have me looking for ways to pass time, so please forgive my fruitless speculation and desire to engage in discussion.

I honestly have zero value for ‘exclusivity’ in making an automobile purchase. Nonetheless, as witnessed by a seemingly large number of prospective M2CS buyers, exclusivity does appear to be important to others.

So, you are very likely correct in stating that - if/when released - the 21’ M2C will be very much the same as the 20’ model. The difference is the 21’ would be the last iteration of the chassis and, IF limited in production numbers, would make it more desirable to potential buyers who value exclusivity. Although unlikely, BMW could even offer something desirable - not offered in the 20’ model - and the appeal goes up even further.

My suggestion of a limited release is not intentional, as with the M2CS. Rather, an unintended consequence of world events. A matter of BMW simply adjusting timeline and production of an outgoing chassis iteration.

Regarding minimal change being insignificant, I would play devil’s advocate when it comes to exclusivity. The NUMBER of productions is arguably more important than the actual changes made. For example, the 1955 double die Lincoln cent is still just a cent with alteration that would be imperceptible to nearly anyone not looking for it. Yet, the rare NUMBER makes that cent worth an estimated $700 to $15,000 . . . compared to single die counterpart that is worth, well, a penny.

Then again, as you suggest, the most likely scenario is that BMW simply uses up existing parts bin in a farewell, last-batch production of the M2C as the 20’ model.

///AVM

I hear you on the boredom related speculation. I guess we all have to wait and see what happens when we reboot. I for one am glad I unexpectedly picked up an M2 way before I needed another car. I guess it happened for a reason...it was meant to be.

[Moflow]

Yeah, if i were placing bets, I'd bet on AVM's scenario where they just quietly cancel the 2021 model, other than finishing out cars that are already in production or those that have already been ordered. Those cars may then be unofficially labeled as 2021 cars, but the reality is they will be the exact same as the 2020 ones.

I'm guessing the higher ups at BMW are in "weather the storm" mode. They'll look at this as a lost year, but they're not going to push everything back, they'll want to move forward and get people stoked about buying cars again when this is all over. One way to do that is with an exciting new performance car, which will drive people into show rooms a lot more than a special "final edition" of an old car.

Random side thought: The M2CS will be way rarer and years down the line it will be a pretty sought after vehicle. I think history will be very kind to the first generation M2 in all of its forms and the CS was always going to be the ultimate form of it. Having an interesting story surrounding the rareness of the car will just add to that mystique.

[JCZ5]

I offer my take on the MY21 discussion based on some recent posts.

Historically, the last 1-2 years of a model year runout never provided any additional packages. In fact, it normally just consolidated packages or made them standard. If you're lucky, you may receive some new external or internal color choices. Therefore, a MY20 being similar or same to MY21 is expected even without this crisis. If anything, they would have just included the executive package as standard.

Now, to go against the grain, I don't think BMW would stop production of the M2C early, especially when EOP was suppose to be next June.

Reason 1: Amortized cost.
At this point of the lifecycle, the initial cost is close to, if not already paid off. And the cost of producing these vehicles are low enough that the sell of each vehicle adds to the profit margin for the 2 series. Before somebody mentioned how the M2 is a slow seller, let's not forget the profit margin fits into the overall 2 series bucket as a whole. So the development cost is only a fraction of the 2 series since the M version is only an upgrade to what was the cost of the M specific components and tuning in top of the 2 series (aka relatively smaller cost)

Reason 2: No reason to accelerate future product pipeline.
As we all know, the car market in the next few months to a year will be extremely poor due to the recession. We still do not know the severity of the recession, but that can obviously impact the car market.

So I disagree with people saying they will move up the new generation M2 timetable. If anything, BMW is trying to delay release as long as possible as they know new releases will not have the sale momentum.

As such, no reason to restructure the production lines, which are timely and costly. Instead, it's much more cost effective to continue producing the current M2's with the amortized costs already done. BMW will use this time to minimize costs, while retaining their employees and keeping their operations running by producing a well known vehicle.

So to be even more of a contrarian, BMW could delay their EOP for their M2 and wait for the economy to recover before producing their next highly anticipated M2. Also keep in mind the new M3/M4 will be announced and released end of this year and early next year. One new M model in this current economy is enough instead of risking two new M models.

[///AVM]

Originally Posted by JCZ5

I offer my take on the MY21 discussion based on some recent posts.

Historically, the last 1-2 years of a model year runout never provided any additional packages. In fact, it normally just consolidated packages or made them standard. If you're lucky, you may receive some new external or internal color choices. Therefore, a MY20 being similar or same to MY21 is expected even without this crisis. If anything, they would have just included the executive package as standard.

Now, to go against the grain, I don't think BMW would stop production of the M2C early, especially when EOP was suppose to be next June.

Reason 1: Amortized cost.
At this point of the lifecycle, the initial cost is close to, if not already paid off. And the cost of producing these vehicles are low enough that the sell of each vehicle adds to the profit margin for the 2 series. Before somebody mentioned how the M2 is a slow seller, let's not forget the profit margin fits into the overall 2 series bucket as a whole. So the development cost is only a fraction of the 2 series since the M version is only an upgrade to what was the cost of the M specific components and tuning in top of the 2 series (aka relatively smaller cost)

Reason 2: No reason to accelerate future product pipeline.
As we all know, the car market in the next few months to a year will be extremely poor due to the recession. We still do not know the severity of the recession, but that can obviously impact the car market.

So I disagree with people saying they will move up the new generation M2 timetable. If anything, BMW is trying to delay release as long as possible as they know new releases will not have the sale momentum.

As such, no reason to restructure the production lines, which are timely and costly. Instead, it's much more cost effective to continue producing the current M2's with the amortized costs already done. BMW will use this time to minimize costs, while retaining their employees and keeping their operations running by producing a well known vehicle.

So to be even more of a contrarian, BMW could delay their EOP for their M2 and wait for the economy to recover before producing their next highly anticipated M2. Also keep in mind the new M3/M4 will be announced and released end of this year and early next year. One new M model in this current economy is enough instead of risking two new M models.

JC

As always, your perspective is well presented and taken. I suspect, to some degree, everything we are discussing is being discussed at the BMW executive level on a daily basis.

I tried to find counterpoints to those of your own . . . and could not.

///AVM

[Brandt51]

Originally Posted by JCZ5

I offer my take on the MY21 discussion based on some recent posts.

Historically, the last 1-2 years of a model year runout never provided any additional packages. In fact, it normally just consolidated packages or made them standard. If you're lucky, you may receive some new external or internal color choices. Therefore, a MY20 being similar or same to MY21 is expected even without this crisis. If anything, they would have just included the executive package as standard.

Now, to go against the grain, I don't think BMW would stop production of the M2C early, especially when EOP was suppose to be next June.

Reason 1: Amortized cost.
At this point of the lifecycle, the initial cost is close to, if not already paid off. And the cost of producing these vehicles are low enough that the sell of each vehicle adds to the profit margin for the 2 series. Before somebody mentioned how the M2 is a slow seller, let's not forget the profit margin fits into the overall 2 series bucket as a whole. So the development cost is only a fraction of the 2 series since the M version is only an upgrade to what was the cost of the M specific components and tuning in top of the 2 series (aka relatively smaller cost)

Reason 2: No reason to accelerate future product pipeline.
As we all know, the car market in the next few months to a year will be extremely poor due to the recession. We still do not know the severity of the recession, but that can obviously impact the car market.

So I disagree with people saying they will move up the new generation M2 timetable. If anything, BMW is trying to delay release as long as possible as they know new releases will not have the sale momentum.

This makes a ton of sense. James Bond No Time to Die's release date was postponed because of the virus. Despite the money invested in advertising, the studio would would have lost a lot of money because of the precautions people were taking before the official shelter in place orders. The studio took the safe bet of a later release date when everything is opened up. I was bummed, I really wanted to see the movie asap.

I'm curious as to what will become of the F87 M2. I'm guessing we'll still get a MY21 with lower production numbers?

[BigKutta]

Originally Posted by JCZ5

I offer my take on the MY21 discussion based on some recent posts.

Historically, the last 1-2 years of a model year runout never provided any additional packages. In fact, it normally just consolidated packages or made them standard. If you're lucky, you may receive some new external or internal color choices. Therefore, a MY20 being similar or same to MY21 is expected even without this crisis. If anything, they would have just included the executive package as standard.

Now, to go against the grain, I don't think BMW would stop production of the M2C early, especially when EOP was suppose to be next June.

Reason 1: Amortized cost.
At this point of the lifecycle, the initial cost is close to, if not already paid off. And the cost of producing these vehicles are low enough that the sell of each vehicle adds to the profit margin for the 2 series. Before somebody mentioned how the M2 is a slow seller, let's not forget the profit margin fits into the overall 2 series bucket as a whole. So the development cost is only a fraction of the 2 series since the M version is only an upgrade to what was the cost of the M specific components and tuning in top of the 2 series (aka relatively smaller cost)

Reason 2: No reason to accelerate future product pipeline.
As we all know, the car market in the next few months to a year will be extremely poor due to the recession. We still do not know the severity of the recession, but that can obviously impact the car market.

So I disagree with people saying they will move up the new generation M2 timetable. If anything, BMW is trying to delay release as long as possible as they know new releases will not have the sale momentum.

As such, no reason to restructure the production lines, which are timely and costly. Instead, it's much more cost effective to continue producing the current M2's with the amortized costs already done. BMW will use this time to minimize costs, while retaining their employees and keeping their operations running by producing a well known vehicle.

So to be even more of a contrarian, BMW could delay their EOP for their M2 and wait for the economy to recover before producing their next highly anticipated M2. Also keep in mind the new M3/M4 will be announced and released end of this year and early next year. One new M model in this current economy is enough instead of risking two new M models.

I agree with this, the M2 is a high margin product right now, and in no way is BMW killing its life span.

So, my question to you JCZ5 is, watcha gonna do? You gonna wait it out for a 2021, or scoop one up now?

[JCZ5]

@BigKutta that is a great question. For the time being, I will wait for the MY21, I am in no rush.

Honestly, I see this as a win win. If there are changes to MY21, that's fantastic. If not, I can hopefully pick up a MY20 at a greater discount.

[///AVM]

Originally Posted by JCZ5

@BigKutta For the time being, I will wait for the MY21, I am in no rush.

JC

I thought I had talked you over to the 'dark side.' I even picked out a unique colored beauty for you.

It is all good, though, as I can live out my admiration for the M2C vicariously through you and other owners on Bimmerpost.

///AVM