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      08-24-2017, 02:53 PM   #529
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That percentage is probably a bit conservative.

The true percentage is more likely:

%= (Population of the world - Yourself)/ Population of the world.
*100
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      08-24-2017, 02:58 PM   #530
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You are probably right...but let's consider the options:

If the 718 GT4 doesn't get a detuned 4.0L...what does it get? The whole point, according to Porsche, of going to a F4 in the 718/718S was because the 991.2 CS engine with turbos would not physically fit in the 718 body. So what engine would go in there, especially if the GT cars are really going to remain NA like one of the Porsche bosses said last year?

I know from my time on Planet 9 that many people put turbos on their NA 981 engines...so the "not fitting" has always been a bullshit excuse to me. They went F4 to keep the 911 a safe distance ahead, from a performance standpoint. Again with the neutering of the Cayman, because it would most likely outshine a rear-engined 911 if the power happened to be the same...You want a F6 in your Porsche now? You gotta spend 100K+...

So...do they make some crazy powerful F4 to use the in the 718 GT4? That flies in contradiction to what the Porsche bosses said...

Maybe the civic GT4 () gets a detuned 3.8L from the 991.1 GT3 and the GT4-RS gets the 4.0...or they don't make both cars...
I thought the main reason that they went with a 4 cylinder on the 718 was emissions. That's what top gear referenced to as well.
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      08-24-2017, 04:06 PM   #531
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Umm, how many people here that have driven serious cars before the M2 are impressws w the M2? I drove a tuned 135 w suspension mods and walked extremely disappointed from a base M2... the M3 was another level.
What was it exactly that disappointed you the most? I had a tuned F80 so that will be my baseline for comparison but it was DCT so I got bored pretty quickly. I have a deposit down for a base M2 6mt so I'm curious to know your thoughts.. I've not driven a 2 series of any kind including the M2.. never a 1 series either but I did have a e92 335i back in the day lol
It depends, if manual will save the car for you, but here is my experience...

Power... simply not good or impressive, this will be a massive downgrade from the m3

Chassis stability - not remotely close to the longer M3

suspension and body rigidity - felt like my 135 on koni yellows... the m3 feels like a racecar

Low rent interior - not really a deal breaker


Overall, I would say its simply an overhyped car, w decent weight and balance... Again, in no way did it feel better than my old bolt on 135i w suspension mods. Just in general, non impressive car... I urge you to drive an m240, bcuz its not that far... if manual and this weight / size interst you, then you may be happy w it but overall its a serious step down from an m3. Probaby the most overhyped bmw I have ever driven.
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      08-24-2017, 04:12 PM   #532
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Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
It depends, if manual will save the car for you, but here is my experience...

Power... simply not good or impressive, this will be a massive downgrade from the m3

Chassis stability - not remotely close to the longer M3

suspension and body rigidity - felt like my 135 on koni yellows... the m3 feels like a racecar

Low rent interior - not really a deal breaker


Overall, I would say its simply an overhyped car, w decent weight and balance... Again, in no way did it feel better than my old bolt on 135i w suspension mods. Just in general, non impressive car... I urge you to drive an m240, bcuz its not that far... if manual and this weight / size interst you, then you may be happy w it but overall its a serious step down from an m3. Probaby the most overhyped bmw I have ever driven.
I took the m2 for a drive. i have a tuned 135 n54, suspension and all that. The M2 felt like a refined, more planted, and quieter version of my 135. On the outside it's great looking car, much nicer than a 240i msport. is it worth $40k to upgrade for me? i donno but at some point i gotta. The m3/m4 is just going to be too big for my car tastes i think, so it's not on my radar really and i bet others have that feeling.
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      08-24-2017, 04:13 PM   #533
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Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
It depends, if manual will save the car for you, but here is my experience...

Power... simply not good or impressive, this will be a massive downgrade from the m3

Chassis stability - not remotely close to the longer M3

suspension and body rigidity - felt like my 135 on koni yellows... the m3 feels like a racecar

Low rent interior - not really a deal breaker


Overall, I would say its simply an overhyped car, w decent weight and balance... Again, in no way did it feel better than my old bolt on 135i w suspension mods. Just in general, non impressive car... I urge you to drive an m240, bcuz its not that far... if manual and this weight / size interst you, then you may be happy w it but overall its a serious step down from an m3. Probaby the most overhyped bmw I have ever driven.

Is this in a ZCP M3? If so I can probably understand that. I came from a 2015 M3 and found the M2 less floaty feeling than the M3, took corners better and put power to the ground easier. Yes the M3 had more power, but that was it, steering feel was better in the M2, felt more connected. Sound was also better in the M2.

I went from my M3 to a 991.1 GTS, then to the M2. The M2 felt more agile and closer to the 911 than the M3 did being smaller and not feeling as boaty, so maybe that also affects my decision.

The ZCP I hear fixed a lot of the issues so I can understand that probably being true though. I only drove a ZCP once on a test drive and I think it did put power down a bit better than non ZCP, but still felt large compared.
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      08-24-2017, 04:16 PM   #534
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Originally Posted by infinitekid2002 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
It depends, if manual will save the car for you, but here is my experience...

Power... simply not good or impressive, this will be a massive downgrade from the m3

Chassis stability - not remotely close to the longer M3

suspension and body rigidity - felt like my 135 on koni yellows... the m3 feels like a racecar

Low rent interior - not really a deal breaker


Overall, I would say its simply an overhyped car, w decent weight and balance... Again, in no way did it feel better than my old bolt on 135i w suspension mods. Just in general, non impressive car... I urge you to drive an m240, bcuz its not that far... if manual and this weight / size interst you, then you may be happy w it but overall its a serious step down from an m3. Probaby the most overhyped bmw I have ever driven.
I took the m2 for a drive. i have a tuned 135 n54, suspension and all that. The M2 felt like a refined, more planted, and quieter version of my 135. On the outside it's great looking car, much nicer than a 240i msport. is it worth $40k to upgrade for me? i donno but at some point i gotta. The m3/m4 is just going to be too big for my car tastes i think, so it's not on my radar really and i bet others have that feeling.
I think thats very fair
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      08-24-2017, 04:17 PM   #535
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stilakazam View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
It depends, if manual will save the car for you, but here is my experience...

Power... simply not good or impressive, this will be a massive downgrade from the m3

Chassis stability - not remotely close to the longer M3

suspension and body rigidity - felt like my 135 on koni yellows... the m3 feels like a racecar

Low rent interior - not really a deal breaker


Overall, I would say its simply an overhyped car, w decent weight and balance... Again, in no way did it feel better than my old bolt on 135i w suspension mods. Just in general, non impressive car... I urge you to drive an m240, bcuz its not that far... if manual and this weight / size interst you, then you may be happy w it but overall its a serious step down from an m3. Probaby the most overhyped bmw I have ever driven.

Is this in a ZCP M3? If so I can probably understand that. I came from a 2015 M3 and found the M2 less floaty feeling than the M3, took corners better and put power to the ground easier. Yes the M3 had more power, but that was it, steering feel was better in the M2, felt more connected. Sound was also better in the M2.

I went from my M3 to a 991.1 GTS, then to the M2. The M2 felt more agile and closer to the 911 than the M3 did being smaller and not feeling as boaty, so maybe that also affects my decision.

The ZCP I hear fixed a lot of the issues so I can understand that probably being true though. I only drove a ZCP once on a test drive and I think it did put power down a bit better than non ZCP, but still felt large compared.
I was referring to a '15 M3... perhaps it does corner better and feels a bit more planted... but definitely not fun or special... and to me that is a tipping point on whether to buy.
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      08-24-2017, 04:22 PM   #536
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I was referring to a '15 M3... perhaps it does corner better and feels a bit more planted... but definitely not fun or special... and to me that is a tipping point on whether to buy.
Ahh ok that makes sense then. I was comparing to the reasons I went to the 911 in the first place was the planted feel of the handling rather than the power. For me going from the Porsche back to a BMW was mostly around wanting a cheaper car to mod + smaller chassis for the feel closest to the 911 with practicality. The M3, while practical just felt too large (longer than the porshe), the M2 is actually shorter than the 911 and felt that way. Engine sound also mattered coming from a NA engine.

In the end different priorities for different, hence why they make different cars to fit people's needs.
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      08-24-2017, 04:36 PM   #537
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I thought the main reason that they went with a 4 cylinder on the 718 was emissions. That's what top gear referenced to as well.
I know that was thrown around too - but I also remember a conversation where the size of the F6, plus plumbing for turbos, didn't fit in the 981 or 718 body styles. I will see if I can find it...
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      08-24-2017, 04:59 PM   #538
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Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
I know that was thrown around too - but I also remember a conversation where the size of the F6, plus plumbing for turbos, didn't fit in the 981 or 718 body styles. I will see if I can find it...
Yes Andreas spoke about it in an interview with EVO i think. He said that F6 is producing a lot of heat as is (There was a joke about 981 being the best pizza delivery car on the 981 Chat forum, cause the trunk heats up a lot ) and cramming turbos there even with smaller bore would make it even worse. I think it's the biggest drawback of the mid engine layout - feeding air and dissipating heat.
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      08-24-2017, 07:12 PM   #539
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People who are saying this car will be $80K+ are on something. I remember early on when the engine application for the base M2 was still under speculation. People were saying if the M2 comes with the S55 it should be slotted around $60-63K, just under the M4. Now BMW adds a couple letters to the name and it is worth $80K? All while not having the bespoke M3/4 interior and less power? I don't get it. I guess BMW is just that good at marketing.

Closest German competitor will most likely be the TT-RS. That is daily-able sports car with a glorious 5-cyl, bespoke interior, digital dash, and nearly identical power for under $65K with a dual clutch already factored in. CS will most certainly be better on a circuit but 95%+ of their buyers will never see a track. Not to mention BMW already absorbed the R&D of many parts on this car from the siblings. If this car ends up being >$70K (ideally $65K), especially with a manual (won't buy without it), then BMW is overcharging for this car and I'm out.
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      08-24-2017, 07:18 PM   #540
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Originally Posted by synergist View Post
People who are saying this car will be $80K+ are on something. I remember early on when the engine application for the base M2 was still under speculation. People were saying if the M2 comes with the S55 it should be slotted around $60-63K, just under the M4. Now BMW adds a couple letters to the name and it is worth $80K? All while not having the bespoke M3/4 interior and less power? I don't get it. I guess BMW is just that good at marketing.

Closest German competitor will most likely be the TT-RS. That is daily-able sports car with a glorious 5-cyl, bespoke interior, digital dash, and nearly identical power for under $65K with a dual clutch already factored in. CS will most certainly be better on a circuit but 95%+ of their buyers will never see a track. Not to mention BMW already absorbed the R&D of many parts on this car from the siblings. If this car ends up being >$70K (ideally $65K), especially with a manual (won't buy without it), then BMW is overcharging for this car and I'm out.
i'm with you brother...
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      08-24-2017, 07:28 PM   #541
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I personally do not see how it would be priced at $62k-63k seeing how the Performance Edition M2 was priced and all that was a M2 stripped a few features and a couple M Performance goodies added.
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      08-24-2017, 07:38 PM   #542
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Originally Posted by just blaze View Post
I personally do not see how it would be priced at $62k-63k seeing how the Performance Edition M2 was priced and all that was a M2 stripped a few features and a couple M Performance goodies added.
Quote:
Originally Posted by synergist View Post
I don't get it. I guess BMW is just that good at marketing.
The "performance edition" was just a marketing stunt solely performed by BMW USA by tacking on already available m-performance parts, removing utility as a charade for weight savings, and requiring an upfront buy in to m driving school just because their market research probably told them people would be gullible enough to pay a higher price tag.

Last edited by filet.M2c; 08-24-2017 at 07:44 PM..
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      08-24-2017, 07:47 PM   #543
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synergist View Post
People who are saying this car will be $80K+ are on something. I remember early on when the engine application for the base M2 was still under speculation. People were saying if the M2 comes with the S55 it should be slotted around $60-63K, just under the M4. Now BMW adds a couple letters to the name and it is worth $80K? All while not having the bespoke M3/4 interior and less power? I don't get it. I guess BMW is just that good at marketing.

Closest German competitor will most likely be the TT-RS. That is daily-able sports car with a glorious 5-cyl, bespoke interior, digital dash, and nearly identical power for under $65K with a dual clutch already factored in. CS will most certainly be better on a circuit but 95%+ of their buyers will never see a track. Not to mention BMW already absorbed the R&D of many parts on this car from the siblings. If this car ends up being >$70K, especially with a manual (won't buy without it), then BMW is overcharging for this car and I'm out.
I agree,it is basically an option package like the M3 competition.IMO it won't be more than 10k over the regular M2.They won't be changing the seats,no carbon fiber roof.There will probably be a different interior trim and we already know that the car will get the M seat belts.It will get different wheels and the front and rear bumpers will get a little bit updated and that's about it.Ceramic brakes might also be an option because we have already seen updated brakes on some of the M2 CS test cars that have been posted on the forum.
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      08-24-2017, 08:02 PM   #544
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Originally Posted by Nantucket View Post
I agree,it is basically an option package like the M3 competition.
its nothing like ZCP. this is a standalone car with bespoke features to differentiate it from the regular M2. the engine change alone should tell you that. its not just a ECU upgrade like the competition.

given all that i would assume it gets a similar percentage price hike to the M4CS over the regular M4
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      08-24-2017, 08:13 PM   #545
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Originally Posted by infinitekid2002 View Post
i see a lot of people running with the 80k price...do people think this is reasonable? Sounds like a huge markup over a base M2..if accurate i cannot afford that in my budget. got other things i need to buy lol, can't live in my M2 CS
Agree...

Quote:
Originally Posted by synergist View Post
People who are saying this car will be $80K+ are on something. I remember early on when the engine application for the base M2 was still under speculation. People were saying if the M2 comes with the S55 it should be slotted around $60-63K, just under the M4. Now BMW adds a couple letters to the name and it is worth $80K? All while not having the bespoke M3/4 interior and less power? I don't get it. I guess BMW is just that good at marketing.

Closest German competitor will most likely be the TT-RS. That is daily-able sports car with a glorious 5-cyl, bespoke interior, digital dash, and nearly identical power for under $65K with a dual clutch already factored in. CS will most certainly be better on a circuit but 95%+ of their buyers will never see a track. Not to mention BMW already absorbed the R&D of many parts on this car from the siblings. If this car ends up being >$70K (ideally $65K), especially with a manual (won't buy without it), then BMW is overcharging for this car and I'm out.
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Originally Posted by just blaze View Post
I personally do not see how it would be priced at $62k-63k seeing how the Performance Edition M2 was priced and all that was a M2 stripped a few features and a couple M Performance goodies added.
In my opinion this car will be a little above the US ZL5 performance edition (which was 51.5 +1K destination + 6500 ZL5 package + $2500 M drivers PACKAGE = 62k manual) - ADD 3k FOR dct - 65k). yIKES... THE BASE m4 price already is 65K. The reason the ZL5 is a slow mover is because the extra $2500 of the M drivers package puts it right into M4 range.

To me... the Performance edition gets the better suspension, lesser stereo and single zone AC. The M2 CS will get the S55 motor.. on the STOCK suspension.. with the stock stereo, stock dual zone A/C probably, two new added colors.. and what else?

I feel like the CS will be around 63-64K right where the ZL5 is (there is a reason that model tucked in under the M4).. Add in another $2900 for the DCT and it will be around $67K. .

IFF BMW were to make an M2 GTS .. manual seats... single zone a/c... lower level radio..the ZL5 or M4 GTS suspension,. basically the ZL5 and add in the roll cage. and extinguisher . S55 with full water injection... and a big ass wing and more aero up front .. then I would think * that* vehicle would be around 75-80K.

Last edited by M3 Adjuster; 08-24-2017 at 08:34 PM..
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      08-24-2017, 08:39 PM   #546
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Originally Posted by kab_m2 View Post
its nothing like ZCP. this is a standalone car with bespoke features to differentiate it from the regular M2. the engine change alone should tell you that. its not just a ECU upgrade like the competition.

given all that i would assume it gets a similar percentage price hike to the M4CS over the regular M4
Based on what ynguldyn said last week you are correct but I still don't think that the M2 CS will be more than 10k over the regular M2.

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Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
M2 Competition and M2 CS are two different names for the same car. BMW couldn't settle on the name until just a few months ago.
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Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
Comp pack doesn't get its own typschlüssel and a line in that file. Typschlüssel is assigned based only on vehicle model, LCI status, engine model and revision, transmission model and revision, and drive type. Comp pack, on the other hand, is simply a couple of lines in the options list.

ynguldyn Just to confirm,does your info show that the regular M2 will also change to the MY19 model year,when the M2 CS is released in March.
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      08-24-2017, 09:53 PM   #547
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Originally Posted by Nantucket View Post
ynguldyn Just to confirm,does your info show that the regular M2 will also change to the MY19 model year,when the M2 CS is released in March.
No, it just went through LCI, and that's what will be produced until F87 EOP.
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      08-24-2017, 10:14 PM   #548
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Anybody here from manufacturing?
How dramatic could be the cost increase of production if they offered more shades of leather other than black?
Yes me. Automotive manufacturing to be exact. And it depends on what type of color you're after, same seat with the only difference being stitching and M logo on it? Judging by bmw M2 seat and it being shared with pretty much most F cars across the line in some way it wouldn't be expensive.

It all boils down to what type of agreements and deals they have with their supplier. The more they obviously buy the more cheaper. But also take into account of its something difficult to do or extremely rare that requires it leaves normal assembly process it will cost much more.

I'll give an example and hopefully it makes sense. Parts in my plant that normally one would pay $100's thousands of dollars to replace at dealers are Relatively dirt cheap. I specialize in enclosures. Glass to be exact. Our 2 pane sound screen windshield with rain sensor bracket and mirror (high series) from PGW (supplier) literally costs $88 to scrap. Yes they break all the time. One of these will set you back $600-700 at the dealer. We buy so much it's just normal business (bulk). I see modules and parts get dropped that cost an arm and a leg and just get tagged for scrap.
I don't think a red seat or saddle brown would be so out of the ordinary and hella expensive but would they do it is the question.

Imo it wouldn't be difficult or more expensive but rather bmw just chose to only have 1 color to "be" sort of more simple or unique to a purist stand point.
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      08-24-2017, 10:17 PM   #549
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kab_m2 View Post
its nothing like ZCP. this is a standalone car with bespoke features to differentiate it from the regular M2. the engine change alone should tell you that. its not just a ECU upgrade like the competition.

given all that i would assume it gets a similar percentage price hike to the M4CS over the regular M4
To be fair we don't know what other features it will really get. The only thing we know is the S55. The CS had a lot of handmedowns from the GTS like the carbon hood. There is no m2 GTS yet and so either they will have to create the bespoke parts and the price will go up 20-30K, or it will simply be the S55 and a tweaked suspension and different rims/colors in which case it might be closer to the 10K adder. Given how both the 1/m and M2 were both very much "reuse existing parts" type cars then I can't imagine it will get much changed in the way of body panels or interior but rather focus on what they can reuse from the M3/M4 to boost performance, give a nice ring time and have a horsepower advantage over the RS3/TTRS. That latter part to me is really the goal here, its not about ticking boxes that enthusiasts want. If they raise the price too much then suddenly they are not outperforming the rs3/ttrs and instead they are competing with a cayman s. Besides it's not a GTS or a CSL anyway so expectations and prices should be lower.
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      08-24-2017, 10:18 PM   #550
dmboone25
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Drives: 2024 Golf R / 2022 718 Spyder
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2007 E92 328i  [10.00]
2007 328i  [10.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
In my opinion this car will be a little above the US ZL5 performance edition (which was 51.5 +1K destination + 6500 ZL5 package + $2500 M drivers PACKAGE = 62k manual) - ADD 3k FOR dct - 65k). yIKES... THE BASE m4 price already is 65K. The reason the ZL5 is a slow mover is because the extra $2500 of the M drivers package puts it right into M4 range.
Will the CS not have any revised suspension/chassis/etc?

There's no way that it can cost 80K without changes in those departments.

For example, there are quite a few changes in the ZCP on the F80/82 - and that's 5K. If BMW thinks they're going to command 10K more than a base M2 for the S55 and little else, then they're nuts.
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Past rides: 2016 981 BGTS, 2020 MINI JCW, 2017 F80, 2015 981 CS, 2014 F22 235, 2011 E82 135, 2008 E82 135, 2007 E92 328, 2007 E92 328 (My lady drives an OG M2. So does my dad)
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