[windnsea00]

Originally Posted by ASAP

The problem becomes... this is a really weird expectation of what a "CS" model is to be... a better streetcar w more comfort? I think there are some really heavy elephants in the room here.

Personally... I would have done everything to make this a lighter car... pull the upgraded stereo, manual seats only, manual air cond... replace deck cards w cardboard ala csl and put in a nice M perf suspension or some sort of partnership w Ohlins and optimize dampening etc. This all aside from the fact that the 1M was $47k when it came out... this is $88k... not sure where we went wrong there in the last 10 years. BMW is milking us and they know it...

$47k would be about $55k in today's money which isn't far off from a M2C which would be a better comparison, and the 1M didn't even have a M engine or two transmission options.

My M2CS was $83k MSRP.

[Jimjamz]

Originally Posted by ASAP

The problem becomes... this is a really weird expectation of what a "CS" model is to be... a better streetcar w more comfort? I think there are some really heavy elephants in the room here.

Personally... I would have done everything to make this a lighter car... pull the upgraded stereo, manual seats only, manual air cond... replace deck cards w cardboard ala csl and put in a nice M perf suspension or some sort of partnership w Ohlins and optimize dampening etc. This all aside from the fact that the 1M was $47k when it came out... this is $88k... not sure where we went wrong there in the last 10 years. BMW is milking us and they know it...

I understand the F87 CS had a reasonably public 3 year development cycle whereas the 1M was a surprise launch. Is that right?

[medphysdave]

Originally Posted by windnsea00

$47k would be about $55k in today's money which isn't far off from a M2C which would be a better comparison, and the 1M didn't even have a M engine or two transmission options.

My M2CS was $83k MSRP.

BMW has pretty much stated that the CSL of old will not be repeated. The CSL will be the track toy with a license plate. Essentially a 2 seater because it will have a roll cage. I think a CSL without a roll cage may not exist. Future CS models may gain weight savings because they are now designing the model lineup from scratch so that the weight savings can be achieved if desired. It's difficult to take a pre-existing chassis and start cutting weight and still meet safety regulations.

They can now start with the beefiest track capable motor and detune it across the model lineup (includes proper cooling from beginning). They are making tuning more difficult to keep the seperation between the models. They did a reasonable job with the CS, but had to upgrade the cooling to create reliability. Adding back in the weight that was removed.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by windnsea00

$47k would be about $55k in today's money which isn't far off from a M2C which would be a better comparison, and the 1M didn't even have a M engine or two transmission options.

My M2CS was $83k MSRP.

All agreed... and which was the most special iteration of itself at the time?

The way I see it... the m4 gts should be legendary when in fact, its kind of a joke... granted the M2 CS will have a much better legacy, but it will it be far above the M2 comp?

[Jimjamz]

Originally Posted by ASAP

All agreed... and which was the most special iteration of itself at the time?

The way I see it... the m4 gts should be legendary when in fact, its kind of a joke... granted the M2 CS will have a much better legacy, but it will it be far above the M2 comp?

The look of the F87 CS will make all the difference.

Reviewers and fans say it's the best looking BMW of its generation and this will count. Most people who lust after legendary cars of old never drove them - they just remember how they looked and what they represented.

[windnsea00]

Originally Posted by ASAP

All agreed... and which was the most special iteration of itself at the time?

The way I see it... the m4 gts should be legendary when in fact, its kind of a joke... granted the M2 CS will have a much better legacy, but it will it be far above the M2 comp?

I think the M4 GTS is misunderstood, people who know their *hit in the automotive journalism world speak positively about it. It really is a hardcore car that needs to be prepped for where and how it's going to be driven, I actually think long-term it will come back in value, right now is probably a good time to buy.

With only 564 M2CS in the US and ~2200 worldwide I expect it to hold its value pretty well, the M2C actually held its value better than the OG M2. I had mine for 2 years and it depreciated 16% from MSRP which isn't bad at all.

[Jimjamz]

Originally Posted by windnsea00

I think the M4 GTS is misunderstood, people who know their *hit in the automotive journalism world speak positively about it. It really is a hardcore car that needs to be prepped for where and how it's going to be driven, I actually think long-term it will come back in value, right now is probably a good time to buy.

With only 564 M2CS in the US and ~2200 worldwide I expect it to hold its value pretty well, the M2C actually held its value better than the OG M2. I had mine for 2 years and it depreciated 16% from MSRP which isn't bad at all.

'Slightly' different critical responses for the M4 GTS compared to the M2 CS...

Example:
https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1332832

[M2PDX]

Originally Posted by Bimmercs

It really is !

Baby Yoda appears to be admiring the picture!

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by Jimjamz

I understand the F87 CS had a reasonably public 3 year development cycle whereas the 1M was a surprise launch. Is that right?

In the past BMW M squeezed the E46 M3 CSL engine (S54B32HP) into an early stage E82 1-Series coupé. But it proved to be too heavy for the car.

Subsequently the standard E82 135i was originally meant to be an M model. But that didn't materialize either (just like the M2 Competition was initially supposed to be named "M2 CS": a 410 hp "M2 CS" due for release in 2018 and a 450hp "M2 CSL" due for release at a later stage limited to 999 cars (initially 700)).

The 1M was greenlighted in June/July 2009. Subsequently development, transplanting several E92 M3 parts. Start of production in March 2011. Manual only. 3 colors (AW, BSM and VO). 1495 kg (same weight as the E46 M3 and later the OG F87 M2). 2700 scheduled for production. Around September 2011 production was cranked up and maxed out due to unexpected extreme demand. Produced till June 2012. 6309 cars of which 740 US spec (2011 production only).

The 1M was supposed to get the N55 engine, but due to Valvetronic issues that risked to be time-consuming to get timely sorted out, it ended up with a tuned N54 engine (N54B30T0).

See here.





The "M2 CS" scheduled for production from March 2018 onwards (March 2017 screenshot), later rebaptized "M2 Competition" (with delayed start of production in Summer 2018):


And this screenshot surfaced in September 2016:

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by Artemis

In the past BMW M squeezed the E46 M3 CSL engine (S54B32HP) into an early stage E82 1-Series coupé. But it proved to be too heavy for the car.

Subsequently the standard E82 135i was originally meant to be an M model. But that didn't materialize either (just like the M2 Competition was initially supposed to be named "M2 CS": a 410 hp "M2 CS" due for release in 2018 and a 450hp "M2 CSL" due for release at a later stage limited to 999 cars (initially 700)).

The 1M was greenlighted in June/July 2009. Subsequently development, transplanting several E92 M3 parts. Start of production in March 2011. Manual only. 3 colors (AW, BSM and VO). 1495 kg (same weight as the E46 M3 and later the OG F87 M2). 2700 scheduled for production. Around September 2011 production was cranked up and maxed out due to unexpected extreme demand. Produced till June 2012. 6309 cars of which 740 US spec (2011 production only).

The 1M was supposed to get the N55 engine, but due to Valvetronic issues that risked to be time-consuming to get timely sorted out, it ended up with a tuned N54 engine (N54B30T0).

See here.

You could just tell the enormous amount of enthusiasm from everyone including BMW M themselves when the 1M came out... now the new M4, it just seems to be marketing hype... those were the enthusiast days of yesteryear.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by ASAP

You could just tell the enormous amount of enthusiasm from everyone including BMW M themselves when the 1M came out... now the new M4, it just seems to be marketing hype... those were the enthusiast days of yesteryear.

2010: the E82 1M was launched, lauded and applauded.

2020: the G80 M3 / G82 M4 was launched and lynched.

[Davil]

Originally Posted by ND40oz

Is that The Frame?

Well spotted! It's the 75" model. I love it!

[Jimjamz]

Originally Posted by Artemis

In the past BMW M squeezed the E46 M3 CSL engine (S54B32HP) into an early stage E82 1-Series coupé. But it proved to be too heavy for the car.

Subsequently the standard E82 135i was originally meant to be an M model. But that didn't materialize either (just like the M2 Competition was initially supposed to be named "M2 CS": a 410 hp "M2 CS" due for release in 2018 and a 450hp "M2 CSL" due for release at a later stage limited to 999 cars (initially 700)).

The 1M was greenlighted in June/July 2009. Subsequently development, transplanting several E92 M3 parts. Start of production in March 2011. Manual only. 3 colors (AW, BSM and VO). 1495 kg (same weight as the E46 M3 and later the OG F87 M2). 2700 scheduled for production. Around September 2011 production was cranked up and maxed out due to unexpected extreme demand. Produced till June 2012. 6309 cars of which 740 US spec (2011 production only).

The 1M was supposed to get the N55 engine, but due to Valvetronic issues that risked to be time-consuming to get timely sorted out, it ended up with a tuned N54 engine (N54B30T0).

See here.

[IMG]https://www.1addicts.com/forums/atta...8;d=1368924634[/IMG]

[IMG]https://www.1addicts.com/forums/atta...8;d=1373546495[/IMG]

The "M2 CS" scheduled for production from March 2018 onwards (March 2017 screenshot), later rebaptized "M2 Competition" (with delayed start of production in Summer 2018):
[IMG]https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/at...8;d=1517017376[/IMG]

Thank you for this. It makes complete sense that the M2C was conceived as a CS - its entirely new engine (vs OG M2) would have easily warranted that.

[MadBimmeRad]

Artemis you are simply a compendium of all knowledge when it comes to BMW

Originally Posted by Artemis

In the past BMW M squeezed the E46 M3 CSL engine (S54B32HP) into an early stage E82 1-Series coupé. But it proved to be too heavy for the car.

Subsequently the standard E82 135i was originally meant to be an M model. But that didn't materialize either (just like the M2 Competition was initially supposed to be named "M2 CS": a 410 hp "M2 CS" due for release in 2018 and a 450hp "M2 CSL" due for release at a later stage limited to 999 cars (initially 700)).

The 1M was greenlighted in June/July 2009. Subsequently development, transplanting several E92 M3 parts. Start of production in March 2011. Manual only. 3 colors (AW, BSM and VO). 1495 kg (same weight as the E46 M3 and later the OG F87 M2). 2700 scheduled for production. Around September 2011 production was cranked up and maxed out due to unexpected extreme demand. Produced till June 2012. 6309 cars of which 740 US spec (2011 production only).

The 1M was supposed to get the N55 engine, but due to Valvetronic issues that risked to be time-consuming to get timely sorted out, it ended up with a tuned N54 engine (N54B30T0).

See here.

[IMG]https://www.1addicts.com/forums/atta...3&d=1368924634[/IMG]

[IMG]https://www.1addicts.com/forums/atta...8&d=1373546495[/IMG]

The "M2 CS" scheduled for production from March 2018 onwards (March 2017 screenshot), later rebaptized "M2 Competition" (with delayed start of production in Summer 2018):
[IMG]https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/at...5&d=1517017376[/IMG]

[windnsea00]

Originally Posted by Jimjamz

'Slightly' different critical responses for the M4 GTS compared to the M2 CS...

Example:
https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1332832

JC is for entertainment and hyperbole, not real-life advice. I would look towards Henry Catchpole, Chris Harris, Jethro Bovingdon, Harry Metcalfe, and Randy Pobst for a more intelligent synopsis of a car and I believe most if not all of them were positive on the M4 GTS.

[Bimmed Out]

Originally Posted by ASAP

The way I see it... the m4 gts should be legendary when in fact, its kind of a joke... granted the M2 CS will have a much better legacy, but it will it be far above the M2 comp?

Yes.

[Bimmed Out]

Originally Posted by Jimjamz

The look of the F87 CS will make all the difference.

And exclusivity. The difference in production numbers is enormous.

[Jimjamz]

Originally Posted by windnsea00

JC is for entertainment and hyperbole, not real-life advice. I would look towards Henry Catchpole, Chris Harris, Jethro Bovingdon, Harry Metcalfe, and Randy Pobst for a more intelligent synopsis of a car and I believe most if not all of them were positive on the M4 GTS.

Ok. I went and searched for Chris Harris' review.

Swing and a miss.

https://www.bmwblog.com/2017/05/05/v...he-911-gt3-rs/

I did note some positive reviews though as you say, including from Evo

[windnsea00]

Originally Posted by Jimjamz

Ok. I went and searched for Chris Harris' review.

Swing and a miss.

https://www.bmwblog.com/2017/05/05/v...he-911-gt3-rs/

I did note some positive reviews though as you say, including from Evo

Yea, Chris wasn't a huge fan but there are more positive than negative reviews out there. I really think it was the Jeremy Clarkson one that overshadowed so many others.

Henry Catchpole: https://drivetribe.com/p/why-such-di...QZiFdN6aVzF2bg

And another 8 positive ones: https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1318369

Go figure, people ask BMW for a hardcore model and they make one with CNC machined parts, KW 3-way coilovers, cage, etc. and it still gets (some) flack.

[Jimjamz]

Originally Posted by windnsea00

Yea, Chris wasn't a huge fan but there are more positive than negative reviews out there. I really think it was the Jeremy Clarkson one that overshadowed so many others.

Henry Catchpole: https://drivetribe.com/p/why-such-di...QZiFdN6aVzF2bg

And another 8 positive ones: https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1318369

Go figure, people ask BMW for a hardcore model and they make one with CNC machined parts, KW 3-way coilovers, cage, etc. and it still gets (some) flack.

It's a very good point. And possibly why they didn't make a CSL M2. Would people really have liked its extreme nature or complained about the ride quality?

[ASAP]

The M4 GTS sucked because outside of being massively ugly it had pricing that made anyone feel like they just fell off the rocker..

133k is more than double the base price off the regular M4 at the time... and that got you a tuned M4 with a set of coilovers and a useless water injection kit. Again, I keep going back to the CSL because it indeed was $25k more than the base car but that got you a legendary car that put down a nurgburgring time that matched the regular M4 11 years later... again, they are really half assing things these days while milking the price and its mind blowing to me that very few see this.

[Davil]

Originally Posted by Jimjamz

It's a very good point. And possibly why they didn't make a CSL M2. Would people really have liked its extreme nature or complained about the ride quality?

There's no way I would be buying one if this was the case.

They've put together a near perfect mix of ingredients for me and I suspect many others on this forum.

The only audience for such a spec would be about 10 people with the money and very specific tastes and the usual army of vocal forum visitors without the money constructing the usual straw man.