BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
BMW M2 Forum > BMW M2 CS Model > BMW M2 CS (2020): Wallpapers | Specs | Info

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      11-06-2019, 11:58 PM   #573
Artemis
Moderator
Artemis's Avatar
28916
Rep
13,048
Posts

Drives: BMW M2 Competition
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Belgium

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by seis-speed View Post
So why was the weight so different at the Hockenheim test?
~ 95lbs weight savings.
The passive suspension was perfect on the M2, no need for the adaptive dampers that so many wanted, IMO.
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1654057
Here you go (apart from the pre-production car aspect):
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
The gains basically all come from the CCBs
If you refer to weight (apart from improved braking endurance and heat management) of M-CCB: the article mentions 43 kg weight difference between the tested cars, of which -21.7 kg because of M-CCB, -7.5 kg because of CFRP bonnet/hood and -4 kg because of CFRP roof (Sandwich-structured composite: "you can stand on the new roof - you cannot stand on the previous one").
Rules for car weight figures have been tightened. Most high performance car manufacturers made a sport of it to list the lowest weight possible with car configurations that almost no customer chose, for low weight bragging rights purposes. For a good example, see here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Remember Andreas Preuninger recently trying to talk his way out in interviews when tackling the topic of the 80kg weight increase - on paper - of the 718 GT4 (2019) compared to the 981 GT4 (2015) (1420 kg vs 1340 kg), emphasizing that it's only about 30kg extra rather than 80kg extra.

See from 13:28 to 15:21 in this video (comparing spec sheets: "it's deceiving, deceiving").

Fair enough, but that implies that the 1340kg figure quoted by Porsche back in 2015 for the bare-bones 981 GT4 was actually not representative for GT4 cars sold 'in real life' and would be around 1390kg when weighed with nowadays standards.

Last June, in the Sport Auto interview, AP also disclosed that for 'delete' features "the take-rate is at maximum 2%": see from 12:51 to 13:25 in this video.

So though the 1340 kg figure may be technically true for the 981 GT4 and back then the car could have been ordered that way, but that won't be the usual GT4 sold 'in real life' back then.

Good thing that regulations force car manufacturers to provide figures (weight, fuel consumption, range, emissions) that are closer to 'real life'.
__________________
///M is art Artemis
Appreciate 1
Poochie9099.00
      11-06-2019, 11:58 PM   #574
hellrotm
Banned
4143
Rep
6,926
Posts

Drives: F80
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: ...Location...Location

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by seis-speed View Post
In The M2 CS vs M2 Competition tested at Hockenheim Thread.

They weighed the M2C and the M2CS

M2C weight: 1631kg or 3595.73lbs

M2CS weight: 1588kg or 3500.94lbs

M2CS was lighter by 43kg or 94.79lbs
Quote:
Originally Posted by chmura View Post
Sad just sad. And that 43kg is from the optional Carbon Brakes!! People need to wake up and realize they are getting that exact same car with some carbon and engine tune and don’t forget a $20-30k usd price jump.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
Weight Saving wise:
Hood+roof+carbon console= a given 30+lbs
Wheel=15lbs
Suspension???

Add CCB, could be a total 100lbs savings.

There could be extra savings from having less electronics and insulation.
CCB are the M2C brakes, but with carbon ceramic rotors(calipers are virtually the same).

M2C rotors
F-13.78kg
R-11.30kg

M2CS CCB rotors
F-7.40kg
R-5.82kg

Weight savings from CCB rotors- 23.72kg or 52.29lbs

So more than half of that 94.79lbs is from the $8k CCB.

The 763M wheels save about 5-6lbs per corner, over the heavy 788M wheels. Leaves about 20-ish lbs for the carbon bits. Remember things like the adaptive suspension add some weight.

Last edited by hellrotm; 11-07-2019 at 12:06 AM..
Appreciate 1
Poochie9099.00
      11-07-2019, 12:13 AM   #575
Artemis
Moderator
Artemis's Avatar
28916
Rep
13,048
Posts

Drives: BMW M2 Competition
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Belgium

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by chmura View Post
Sad just sad. And that 43kg is from the optional Carbon Brakes!! People need to wake up and realize they are getting that exact same car with some carbon and engine tune and don’t forget a $20-30k usd price jump.
Point to note: every M2 CS features the Adaptive M Suspension (unlike base M2, M2 LCI or M2C). Also that feature ain't weightless.
__________________
///M is art Artemis
Appreciate 0
      11-07-2019, 12:33 AM   #576
Poochie
Luxury at the redline :)
Poochie's Avatar
United_States
9099
Rep
7,563
Posts

Drives: 2016 M2
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: NYC

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by chmura View Post
Sad just sad. And that 43kg is from the optional Carbon Brakes!! People need to wake up and realize they are getting that exact same car with some carbon and engine tune and don't forget a $20-30k usd price jump.
Point to note: every M2 CS features the Adaptive M Suspension (unlike base M2, M2 LCI or M2C). Also that feature ain't weightless.
I understand that Adaptive Suspension is an intricate system that requires additional sensors and such, which adds mass.

However, BMW claims that the Adaptive Dampers are actually lighter than the base setup.


https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1005164
Attached Images
  
Appreciate 1
CanAutM321104.50
      11-07-2019, 12:42 AM   #577
chmura
Colonel
chmura's Avatar
1557
Rep
2,504
Posts

Drives: 2019 M2 Competition
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Orange County, California

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Point to note: every M2 CS features the Adaptive M Suspension (unlike base M2, M2 LCI or M2C). Also that feature ain't weightless.
BMW should have installed a Lithium Ion battery like I the M4/M3 in the M2 CS so they don’t add weight to the CS but reduce it. This is relatively easy for them to do and shave ~30lbs. Disappointing they didn’t.

Last edited by chmura; 11-07-2019 at 11:17 AM..
Appreciate 1
JustChris17426.00
      11-07-2019, 12:55 AM   #578
SeanWRT
Colonel
SeanWRT's Avatar
3179
Rep
2,577
Posts

Drives: E90 M3 & F87 M2
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Shanghai

iTrader: (1)

My initial reaction to the adaptive suspension is that it adds weight, knowing the stock static damper is noticeably lighter than the MP coilover (made of aluminum).

However, BMW stated for M3/4 the adaptive suspension (aluminum) actually saves weight, for the marketing material. Though we know BMW document makes mistakes all the time. Most ridiculous and recent ones being the M2 N55 having a closed deck, and 1M has a "high performance V8" says its user manual.

Now that they show the CS with the same weight as competition despite of new hood/roof/console/wheel, which combined is a 50lbs hard saving, period. All make me believe the adaptive suspension really adds all the weight back.
__________________
Lemania 2320
Appreciate 0
      11-07-2019, 01:13 AM   #579
hellrotm
Banned
4143
Rep
6,926
Posts

Drives: F80
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: ...Location...Location

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
I understand that Adaptive Suspension is an intricate system that requires additional sensors and such, which adds mass.

However, BMW claims that the Adaptive Dampers are actually lighter than the base setup.


https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1005164
Base model was in reference to base 3-series, not a M3/M4 with non-edc suspension.

F8x
EDC front strut - 2.885kg or 6.36lbs
Non-EDC front strut - 2.648kg or 5.84lbs

EDC rear strut - 2.052kg or 4.52lbs
Non-EDC rear strut - 1.822kg or 4.02lbs
Appreciate 2
chris7197273.00
Poochie9099.00
      11-07-2019, 01:17 AM   #580
hellrotm
Banned
4143
Rep
6,926
Posts

Drives: F80
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: ...Location...Location

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by chmura View Post
BMW should of installed a Lithium Ion battery like I the M4/M3 in the M2 CS so they don’t add weight to the CS but reduce it. This is relatively easy for them to do and shave ~30lbs. Disappointing they didn’t.
That is definitely a missed opportunity.
Appreciate 0
      11-07-2019, 01:25 AM   #581
chris719
Major General
7273
Rep
7,252
Posts

Drives: '08 M Roadster
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: NJ

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
I understand that Adaptive Suspension is an intricate system that requires additional sensors and such, which adds mass.

However, BMW claims that the Adaptive Dampers are actually lighter than the base setup.


https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1005164
Pretty sure even the regular dampers are aluminum, I've seen them up close.

I would not worry about any extra weight from the adaptive system. Electronics and even small DC motors are really light in general.
Appreciate 1
Poochie9099.00
      11-07-2019, 04:38 AM   #582
M-Azing
Antonito
Canada
20
Rep
40
Posts

Drives: BMW 335i
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Toronto

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by chmura View Post
Sad just sad. And that 43kg is from the optional Carbon Brakes!! People need to wake up and realize they are getting that exact same car with some carbon and engine tune and don't forget a $20-30k usd price jump.
Point to note: every M2 CS features the Adaptive M Suspension (unlike base M2, M2 LCI or M2C). Also that feature ain't weightless.
Do you know if in the US the MPE for the M2C is compatible with and available for the CS...and if it will sound better on the CS than on the M2C as a result of the CS tune? Cheers
Appreciate 0
      11-07-2019, 05:46 AM   #583
A6bullet
Lieutenant
Germany
336
Rep
440
Posts

Drives: 2020 330i Msport
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Rheinland-Pfalz

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
Fair enough but there is still a market for a high-end M2.

BMW is a company that has accountants watching accountants so they don't go broke; I'm sure there were folks that crunched the numbers and saw the demand for a such product. And just judging by the way the internet blew up since it's reveal, I'm guessing they were on the mark.
Well I found the problem right there. Maybe the accountants shouldn't dictate car design or what a car can be.

Maybe, if M makes a car that truly serves as the apex of it class, then maybe that will sell far beyond their expectations and everyone is happy.

Instead, what we get is another ///Marketing exercise into BADGE sell out. Of course there are people out there that want to buy the highest end M2 money can buy. But for what? So it sits in their garage? So they can show it off to their equally simpleton friends? To say they have it?

This defeats the whole purpose of the M2!! I'm ok with adding better leather and options to make it a better DD. However this car seems like the brainchild of accountants trying to make a quick buck. I'm still holding hope for a more detailed info on the specs. Maybe they re-tuned something or made some advances elsewhere. As it is though, this car is not worth its 80k markup.

Also this is not a collectors car, stop justifying it.
Appreciate 0
      11-07-2019, 06:32 AM   #584
Poochie
Luxury at the redline :)
Poochie's Avatar
United_States
9099
Rep
7,563
Posts

Drives: 2016 M2
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: NYC

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by A6bullet View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
Fair enough but there is still a market for a high-end M2.

BMW is a company that has accountants watching accountants so they don't go broke; I'm sure there were folks that crunched the numbers and saw the demand for a such product. And just judging by the way the internet blew up since it's reveal, I'm guessing they were on the mark.
Well I found the problem right there. Maybe the accountants shouldn't dictate car design or what a car can be.

Maybe, if M makes a car that truly serves as the apex of it class, then maybe that will sell far beyond their expectations and everyone is happy.

Instead, what we get is another ///Marketing exercise into BADGE sell out. Of course there are people out there that want to buy the highest end M2 money can buy. But for what? So it sits in their garage? So they can show it off to their equally simpleton friends? To say they have it?

This defeats the whole purpose of the M2!! I'm ok with adding better leather and options to make it a better DD. However this car seems like the brainchild of accountants trying to make a quick buck. I'm still holding hope for a more detailed info on the specs. Maybe they re-tuned something or made some advances elsewhere. As it is though, this car is not worth its 80k markup.

Also this is not a collectors car, stop justifying it.
Are you people ever happy?

This is how it typically works in the auto insurance. They create a series vehicles and market them, as the model's life-cycle progresses, they build on it and release spinoffs, until it's discontinued, in an attempt to recoup the cost of the R&D and generate a profit for said model.

If they had to engineer a specific, new model every year from scratch, just to keep you happy, the added expenses would send them into bankruptcy.

I don't understand what all the bitching is about, there are only 2,200 vehicles divvy up between 7 billion people on earth; you have a better chance of getting struck by lightning twice, than you would be afforded an opportunity to even acquire one.

So don't loose any sleep over it, it's not for you anyways. I'm sure someone else will find value in its existence.
Appreciate 4
EthanEJC196.50
MinionM3492.00
MDuckie93.00
cptobvious2531.50
      11-07-2019, 06:41 AM   #585
BroDoze
Captain
142
Rep
749
Posts

Drives: Stuff
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Colorado

iTrader: (0)

Sheesh, the butthurt is heavy in all of these threads.
Lots of folks trying to justify their purchases and crapping on the CS, lol.
Twisting and exaggerating prices and comparisons to fit their butthertedness.
Don’t like it? Don’t buy it.
__________________
///M
Appreciate 4
Poochie9099.00
EthanEJC196.50
devo755.00
cptobvious2531.50
      11-07-2019, 07:19 AM   #586
medphysdave
Brigadier General
medphysdave's Avatar
United_States
4527
Rep
4,644
Posts

Drives: M2 CS | 85 of 592
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Charlotte, NC

iTrader: (3)

I'm tired of BMW making high performance vehicles that surpass each of their own historical icons in almost every way while being able to keep myself and my kids safe in a traffic accident. BMW clearly lacks vision as all we really need are stripped out cars with roll cages to keep us safe during our daily activities.

I hope the humor was shining through in this post. In all seriousness the older generation of vehicles were not nearly as safe as today's production vehicles. It's amazing what accidents are now survivable, and minor accidents that cause no injury. For those that are unfamiliar with roll cages. You would never want to actually drive in a car with a cage without a helmet. You can actually be killed by the very structure that is there to protect you in the event of whacking your head on the cage in an accident. Obviously restraints, and full/half cage impact risk but I'm trying to make the point that a lot of thought goes into interior materials and safety.
Appreciate 5
Poochie9099.00
devo755.00
MinionM3492.00
cptobvious2531.50
      11-07-2019, 07:34 AM   #587
Poochie
Luxury at the redline :)
Poochie's Avatar
United_States
9099
Rep
7,563
Posts

Drives: 2016 M2
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: NYC

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by medphysdave View Post

For those that are unfamiliar with roll cages. You would never want to actually drive in a car with a cage without a helmet. You can actually be killed by the very structure that is there to protect you in the event of whacking your head on the cage in an accident.
I tend to agree with you on helmet/roll cage requirement. The dude below in the M240i Racing Cup probably only survived this horrific crash due to the safety equipment mentioned.


Appreciate 2
      11-07-2019, 08:11 AM   #588
F87EVO
Major
F87EVO's Avatar
Cyprus
4004
Rep
1,221
Posts

Drives: BMW F87 M2 CS (6MT)
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Europa

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
Not even close, I think you are misinformed.

First, they made so many N55s relative to the number of M2s it is ridiculous. Just about every other car in the fleet had an N55 at some point in some model. There is no way that makes sense.

Second, almost none of those parts are off of an M3 or M4. The only part on the CS that is a direct carryover is the seat and even that is modified with alcantara, different stitching, and different leather. The brakes are much larger than what comes on the M3/M4 standard but are NOT the CCB gold calipers, because they only have steel caliper pistons not titanium. The roof is completely different because, you know, it's not even close to the same shape. The hood is completely different as well. Center console, dashboard... same thing. The wheels are the same as the M Performance wheels that have been available forever and are not the Orbit Grey finish from the M3/M4 CS.

I think all the CS models are more of a way to extract money from your pockets, but the M2/M2C are definitely not to sell parts. There is no way the engineering and crash testing would make it worth it. They are just more fun to drive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
BMW has really doubled down on the ///Marketing. People are getting confused and think the CS model is something exotic. Unfortunately shaving insignificant amounts of sprung weight by using carbon body panels doesn't do much.

The annoying parts of this whole exercise are the lies and deception in the marketing. They keep repeating the solid subframe mounts and rear suspension like it's new, but it's been the same since the OG M2. They lied in older interviews where they said the passive suspension was best for the M2, clearly they were just saving it for their ///MoneyMaker. Just like they lied about the mirrors on the OG M2.
You feeling me bro !!!
Appreciate 0
      11-07-2019, 08:11 AM   #589
medphysdave
Brigadier General
medphysdave's Avatar
United_States
4527
Rep
4,644
Posts

Drives: M2 CS | 85 of 592
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Charlotte, NC

iTrader: (3)

Are we fairly certain that the 1550kg weight is with CCB?
Appreciate 0
      11-07-2019, 08:13 AM   #590
A6bullet
Lieutenant
Germany
336
Rep
440
Posts

Drives: 2020 330i Msport
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Rheinland-Pfalz

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
Are you people ever happy?

This is how it typically works in the auto insurance. They create a series vehicles and market them, as the model's life-cycle progresses, they build on it and release spinoffs, until it's discontinued, in an attempt to recoup the cost of the R&D and generate a profit for said model.

If they had to engineer a specific, new model every year from scratch, just to keep you happy, the added expenses would send them into bankruptcy.

I don't understand what all the bitching is about, there are only 2,200 vehicles divvy up between 7 billion people on earth; you have a better chance of getting stuck by lightning twice, than you would be afforded an opportunity to even acquire one.

So don't loose any sleep over it, it's not for you anyways. I'm sure someone else will find value in its existence.
I think you're not getting what I'm saying. I'm also not saying they should develop a new car every time they launch a new edition. I know how capitalism works, thanks for the talk down.

I'm not loosing sleep over it, as I don't care for the car. I am, however, tired of seeing BMW stretch the limit of how far they can go to make a quick dollar. I am also tired of the people in this forum just laying down and taking that Big Bavarian Wurst because daddy told them too. Money and brains clearly are not on the same level.

Objectively, this car is sham. Unless they come out with a spec sheet that details what makes this car so above the rest, I will keep calling it a sham. It's not for me anyways.
Appreciate 2
F87EVO4004.00
      11-07-2019, 08:14 AM   #591
Frosty
Colonel
Frosty's Avatar
773
Rep
2,634
Posts

Drives: M240i - 2021 - 6MT -
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Northern NJ

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostriderf80 View Post
EU laws are there for the environment and emissions.

I suggest you don't decat unless you want to trade in your M2 for a canoe.
Ha ha! ( rare to see an environmental mindset comment... cheers)
__________________
M240i Coupe (6MT) (2021: 6/2021 build )
Accord Coupe (6MT) (2017)
335i Coupe (6MT) (2007: 9/06 build SOLD 8/2016)
Prelude (5MT) (1995)
Appreciate 1
MinionM3492.00
      11-07-2019, 08:25 AM   #592
Sedan_Clan
Law Enforcer
Sedan_Clan's Avatar
Brazil
24829
Rep
22,229
Posts

Drives: '22 Chalk Gray Porsche C2S
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: ..in your rearview!!!

iTrader: (26)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Throttleblip View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by KSAF View Post
Did anyone notice the carbon fibre roof with sandwich design?

Personally, I don't like it. It doesn't match the other carbon fibre parts!
The CF roofs have always been designed in that weave.
I don't think so, the roof weave on my M4cs is exactly the same in pattern of the other carbon parts (tiny weave)
The weave on the roof is 1x1. M-Performance parts are 2x2, as are the mirror caps, etc. This difference is easy to see and is well documented. For example:

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1067793

https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=677822

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1025743

Only the E46 M3 CSL has/had matching components in 1x1 twill.....from the roof to the interior door panels/center console/front splitters/engine components/etc.
Appreciate 1
Poochie9099.00
      11-07-2019, 08:27 AM   #593
Sedan_Clan
Law Enforcer
Sedan_Clan's Avatar
Brazil
24829
Rep
22,229
Posts

Drives: '22 Chalk Gray Porsche C2S
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: ..in your rearview!!!

iTrader: (26)

Here are pictures of my CF roof compared to my OEM CF trunk spoiler. The weaves are different.
Attached Images
  
Appreciate 3
EthanEJC196.50
chris7197273.00
      11-07-2019, 08:31 AM   #594
Poochie
Luxury at the redline :)
Poochie's Avatar
United_States
9099
Rep
7,563
Posts

Drives: 2016 M2
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: NYC

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by A6bullet View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
Are you people ever happy?

This is how it typically works in the auto insurance. They create a series vehicles and market them, as the model's life-cycle progresses, they build on it and release spinoffs, until it's discontinued, in an attempt to recoup the cost of the R&D and generate a profit for said model.

If they had to engineer a specific, new model every year from scratch, just to keep you happy, the added expenses would send them into bankruptcy.

I don't understand what all the bitching is about, there are only 2,200 vehicles divvy up between 7 billion people on earth; you have a better chance of getting stuck by lightning twice, than you would be afforded an opportunity to even acquire one.

So don't loose any sleep over it, it's not for you anyways. I'm sure someone else will find value in its existence.
I think you're not getting what I'm saying. I'm also not saying they should develop a new car every time they launch a new edition. I know how capitalism works, thanks for the talk down.

I'm not loosing sleep over it, as I don't care for the car. I am, however, tired of seeing BMW stretch the limit of how far they can go to make a quick dollar. I am also tired of the people in this forum just laying down and taking that Big Bavarian Wurst because daddy told them too. Money and brains clearly are not on the same level.

Objectively, this car is sham. Unless they come out with a spec sheet that details what makes this car so above the rest, I will keep calling it a sham. It's not for me anyways.
Every car manufacture follows the same pattern, so I don't see how BMW deviate from the norm. They take the same model, enchant it with a slew of carbon fiber and artificially limit the production.

Whether they're attempting to create a cool and desirable take on a car or tying it directly to another brand, the effect can be strong.

It doesn't have to attract people directly, just inject themselves into the zeitgeist and bring attention to their product for a halo effect.

Subaru has the WRX STI Type RA, Ford has Focus RS Heritage and now BMW has the CS to flaunt. They don't expect everyone to accept it but merely take note.
Appreciate 2
cptobvious2531.50
F87EVO4004.00
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:08 AM.




m2
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST