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      08-20-2019, 08:38 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HawaiiShrimp View Post
If Chevy can make the C8 Corvette numbers work (under $60k for a mid-engine all-new design sport car), so should Toyota! There is no excuse. Supra is a halo car. It meant to showcase what Toyota can do. Heck, for interior, if they really care about their halo car, they should learn from their own brand Lexus (i.e. LC500) for that top quality interior design.

I rather pay $100k for a real 2nd Supra than wasting my money on a half-ass supra. You don't have to agree with me, but Toyota's lack of courage is highly disappointed.
No one is gonna pay 100k for a supra
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      08-20-2019, 10:23 AM   #90
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Here is another one.

And this time, the Supra started with launch etc, where the M2C started at idle, etc

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      08-20-2019, 11:27 AM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmosMpower View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by HawaiiShrimp View Post
If Chevy can make the C8 Corvette numbers work (under $60k for a mid-engine all-new design sport car), so should Toyota! There is no excuse. Supra is a halo car. It meant to showcase what Toyota can do. Heck, for interior, if they really care about their halo car, they should learn from their own brand Lexus (i.e. LC500) for that top quality interior design.

I rather pay $100k for a real 2nd Supra than wasting my money on a half-ass supra. You don't have to agree with me, but Toyota's lack of courage is highly disappointed.
No one is gonna pay 100k for a supra
Well this guy said "hold my beer"


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      08-20-2019, 11:33 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HawaiiShrimp View Post
If Chevy can make the C8 Corvette numbers work (under $60k for a mid-engine all-new design sport car), so should Toyota! There is no excuse. Supra is a halo car. It meant to showcase what Toyota can do. Heck, for interior, if they really care about their halo car, they should learn from their own brand Lexus (i.e. LC500) for that top quality interior design.

I rather pay $100k for a real 2nd Supra than wasting my money on a half-ass supra. You don't have to agree with me, but Toyota's lack of courage is highly disappointed.
As i said Toyota has a different culture then GM. Toyota tries very hard not to lay off workers. Even in 2008...toyota didn't lay off their plant workers...they ate the losses and had excess workers go through more training instead of firing them. It builds worker loyalty and dedication. GM tends to hire and lay off workers as demand changes.

GM has been building corvettes every year since 1953 and has a over 70yrs worth of sales data to make relatively accurate sales projections and can amortize the cost.

The supra hasnt been built in over 20yrs and gt86 only sold 7000 units last yr and even at its peak it sold 20k units. Now your trying to sell a car thats double the price...no one with basic business sense will risk $3 billion on 20k units or less not even on $60k cars.

Why you think BMW makes one engine and puts it in like 20 different models?

Toyota already said they wanted the supra to be affordable to the majority of people, not the 10%. 50k is a lot but is relatively affordable to a majority of people.

Toyota will probably make money on the supra for the first 2 years and lose money on the last 3. If its not a suv/truck..it doesnt sell well. Given the current car market...we should appreciate their is a supra at all. More competition is already good.
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      08-20-2019, 11:46 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimateone View Post
How is that even possible? 2 billion dollars to build a motor?
Modern Automotive factories are not just a conveyor belts with some parts moving along. Modern automotive factories are very expensive to build and take a long time to plan. The new Toyota/mazda plant toyota is building is close to $2billion.



Modern powertrains are every expensive to develop now as well. thats why most companies are just extending the life of their current engines and platforms.

look up how much VW spent on their MQB and MEB platforms.

Building cars in mass numbers arent cheap...ask tesla.
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      08-27-2019, 09:05 AM   #94
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Not what I was expecting, but seriously just WOW!



And good comparison to OG M2 with same driver and track 3 years ago..

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      09-22-2019, 10:15 AM   #95
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Here's another one, this time the Supra bested both the M2C and the Cayman PDK.



You got to hand it to Toyota, they built a better BMW than BMW.
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      09-22-2019, 12:28 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HawaiiShrimp View Post
If Chevy can make the C8 Corvette numbers work (under $60k for a mid-engine all-new design sport car), so should Toyota! There is no excuse. Supra is a halo car. It meant to showcase what Toyota can do. Heck, for interior, if they really care about their halo car, they should learn from their own brand Lexus (i.e. LC500) for that top quality interior design.

I rather pay $100k for a real 2nd Supra than wasting my money on a half-ass supra. You don't have to agree with me, but Toyota's lack of courage is highly disappointed.
If Chevy can? It's not uncommon for some muscle car enthusiast say... 'why buy a Porsche/Ferrari/Whatever at x times the price when you can have Corvette/GT500/Whatever for much less"? It didn't apply there and it doesn't apply here.

As for Supra being Toyota's "halo car"? If it were, then they would not have stop making it for 2 decades. A halo that's MIA for that long is no halo.

As for lack of courage, that's BS. The decision to co-create this car was for cost reasons. Both cars were discontinued because of low sales volume that didn't have a business case for its existence. If it were not for cost sharing, we likely would be seeing neither car today.

Although jokes fly about Supra being a BMW, the truth is in the details. The video below does a nice job of describing what happened. Like they leveraged BMW's platform with the B58 because it was already in development at the time so it made sense to use it.

And Toyota's input was in quality and durability testing that "broke down full motors during the development phase and sent thousands of parts back to Japan in order to have full failure analysis... and any part that didn't meet Toyota standards were sent back to Germany..." Telling BMW to shape up and increase their standards? No lack of courage here.

I would imagine that other BMW cars based on the same platform or variant B58 engine would benefit from this Toyota collaboration. Frankly, it's a win-win for both brands.

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      09-22-2019, 05:49 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacoma View Post
Here's another one, this time the Supra bested both the M2C and the Cayman PDK.



You got to hand it to Toyota, they built a better BMW than BMW.
Better or different tune for different audiences...
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      10-07-2019, 03:47 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacoma View Post
Here's another one, this time the Supra bested both the M2C and the Cayman PDK.



You got to hand it to Toyota, they built a better BMW than BMW.
Streets of willow is so tight and technical. have done motorcycle track days there and the 600s almost always smoke the 1000 sport bikes. Take them to big willow and you get the inverse often times. The Civic-R beat the M3/M4 on certain "smaller" tracks but that doesn't mean I'm going to rush out and buy it. Or a 4 cyl cayman for that matter
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      10-22-2019, 04:33 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssabripo View Post
Here is another one.

And this time, the Supra started with launch etc, where the M2C started at idle, etc

Check out this one


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      10-23-2019, 09:38 PM   #100
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From Motor Trends 2019 Best Drivers Car Shootout at Laguna Seca Raceway:

Pro hot shoe Randy Pobst ranked the 12 cars at Laguna Seca in this year’s BDC test.

Toyota Supra ranked #9, Randy says...

A true sports car. Quick beyond its power numbers, it responds directly to driver requests. Shock control is too soft for track work, but it's well controlled on the street. A fair amount of midcorner oversteer requires a light touch when tipping into the throttle. A bit of isolation in the steering.

BMW M2 Competition ranked #4, Randy says...

There's harmony in the way the front and rear tires work together in a corner. This balance rewards the driver every time the wheel turns. Like whipping the flanks of a race horse, I caned the M2 around the circuit as it begged for more. This driver's car urges on the driver.

The only cars ranked higher by Randy as best driver’s car at Laguna Seca...

#1 Porsche Carrera S
#2 McLaren Senna
#3 Ford GT 350

From the twisty California backroads portion of the test:

In fact, the great little BMW M2 Competition generated quite a bit of buzz. Problem is, this car finished third out of three behind a Porsche Cayman and a winning Toyota Supra in a comparison test just a couple months earlier. And by this car, I mean this car. "According to its VIN, this is the same M2 Competition we had for the 718 Cayman/Supra comparison," Walton said. "But it feels like a sweetheart today: alert, pointy, planted. I can confidently trail-brake it into a corner."

There was more continuity trouble, too. Namely, many of us felt there was something wrong with the Supra (though it had a different VIN from the test winner). "The Toyota Supra should have been quick and nimble," international bureau chief Angus MacKenzie said, "but it felt strangely discombobulated, ducking and weaving all over the road like a bloodhound on amphetamines." I experienced the exact same thing. Hmm.

So... in a previous 3 car comparison, the Supra topped the M2C, which had some press car abuse brake issues at the time of the test. So there’s that. In the 12 car Best Driver’s Car comparison, the M2C easily outranks the Supra, on the road and the track, as a driver’s car!

Funny though, the Supra’s lap time at Laguna Seca was slightly quicker than the M2C. Go figure. They surmise that the Supra’s Power is underrated. You think?

Well, I like driving mine.
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      01-08-2020, 11:02 PM   #101
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Im mostly curious about the differences in suspension. The M2 borrows the much more sophisticated M3/M4 setup and should result in better handling right? The Supra is standard BMW struts like very other commuter car they make, right?
Shouldn't this alone make the M2 a much more serious "sports" car?

Yet, they keep referring to it as a 2-door sedan and the Supra as the real sports car just because what, it doesnt have rear seats? Would love to see more direct comparisons.
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      01-08-2020, 11:21 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MiamiM235iEstorilBlue View Post
Im mostly curious about the differences in suspension. The M2 borrows the much more sophisticated M3/M4 setup and should result in better handling right? The Supra is standard BMW struts like very other commuter car they make, right?
Shouldn't this alone make the M2 a much more serious "sports" car?

Yet, they keep referring to it as a 2-door sedan and the Supra as the real sports car just because what, it doesnt have rear seats? Would love to see more direct comparisons.
I've never driven a Supra, but I'd assume it has a lower center of gravity and a "more square" footprint (relatively short and wide.)

Both of those things really matter a lot in terms of handling dynamics.
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      01-09-2020, 05:00 AM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MiamiM235iEstorilBlue View Post
Im mostly curious about the differences in suspension. The M2 borrows the much more sophisticated M3/M4 setup and should result in better handling right? The Supra is standard BMW struts like very other commuter car they make, right?
Shouldn't this alone make the M2 a much more serious "sports" car?

Yet, they keep referring to it as a 2-door sedan and the Supra as the real sports car just because what, it doesnt have rear seats? Would love to see more direct comparisons.
Supra is on the new CLAR chassis, which by itself is a significant improvement over the F series chassis.
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      01-09-2020, 07:49 AM   #104
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Supra is on the new CLAR chassis, which by itself is a significant improvement over the F series chassis.
If they gave the Supra the proper M treatment with S58, bigger brakes, better suspension, etc it would easily be the best performing vehicle made by BMW. I get why that won't happen (BMW doesn't want Toyota to sell it's best performance vehicle) but it would be cool to have that option.
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      01-09-2020, 08:19 AM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heavyD^2 View Post
If they gave the Supra the proper M treatment with S58, bigger brakes, better suspension, etc it would easily be the best performing vehicle made by BMW. I get why that won't happen (BMW doesn't want Toyota to sell it's best performance vehicle) but it would be cool to have that option.
What makes the Supra a better car than the M2 to you...?
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      01-09-2020, 01:18 PM   #106
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      01-09-2020, 01:20 PM   #107
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What makes the Supra a better car than the M2 to you...?
Where did I say it was the better car? I just said with proper M treatment (which it doesn't have) it would be the best performing BMW. Without M equipment it's already in a dead heat performance wise with the M2C so it's pretty obvious that with more power, better brakes, and suspension it would surpass the performance of the current M2 or M3/M4.
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      01-09-2020, 11:55 PM   #108
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      01-10-2020, 12:43 AM   #109
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No M engine and no manual gearbox ...the Supra is not for me
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      01-10-2020, 01:32 AM   #110
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No M engine and no manual gearbox ...the Supra is not for me
I'm as much as BMW man as all of us but statements like the above look a little bizarre when the M2 with M engine...is beaten by the Supra with it's pathetic non M engine

Again I know there's more to an engine than a few 0-60 pulls but still. The M engine was defeated.
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