[detroitm2]

Originally Posted by PilotxERAU

OEM brakes from any manufacturer are not made for racing. I just watched the Ferrari Pista go around Anglesey by a pro driver (autocar or similar video on YouTube) and the brakes faded by the end of the hot lap. *

You need something like AP Racing competition BBK if you really want to track with zero fade.

The M2 has decent Brembo brakes. The pads and fluid won't hold up to track abuse, but the brakes themselves are fine for most drivers.

The OP does not sound like a pro driver, so im pretty sure he doesn't need to spend $10K on AP Racing brakes.

[PilotxERAU]

Originally Posted by detroitm2

The M2 has decent Brembo brakes. The pads and fluid won't hold up to track abuse, but the brakes themselves are fine for most drivers.

The OP does not sound like a pro driver, so im pretty sure he doesn't need to spend $10K on AP Racing brakes.

Anyone benefits. Unsprung mass bro.

[detroitm2]

Originally Posted by PilotxERAU

Anyone benefits. Unsprung mass bro.

Sure there's a benefit, but the OP does not "need" them to track his car.

[5.M0NSTER]

You can get 7:4x Nordschleife laps with stock Brembo brakes. Just saying bro.

[PilotxERAU]

Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER

You can get 7:4x Nordschleife laps with stock Brembo brakes. Just saying bro.

You realize BMW changes the pads and fluid for all timed ring runs right? No factory driver is allowed (with good reason) to go on a street setup they sell to customers.

[5.M0NSTER]

Originally Posted by PilotxERAU

You realize BMW changes the pads and fluid for all timed ring runs right? No factory driver is allowed (with good reason) to go on a street setup they sell to customers.

Um, yeah, I may have a clue. Last time I ran Nordschleife I also had track pads and fluid too. It would be stupid not to.

But this part of the conversation was about updating Calipers/Rotors with something like AP racing, not pads. And to that point detroitM2 was saying you don't need to do that for occasional track days. And he's right. The Brembo calipers on these cars are quite good.

[OG Shark]

Even on a first track day going with track pads & upgraded fluid (Castrol if can find it) can be very helpful. Street pads are not designed to handle track sessions - it can be done but the potential for fade is definitely higher. There is going to be so much going on during your first time out that anything you can do to help lessen the mental load helps tremendously - lowering the chance of brake fade is definitely high on that list, especially on a busy track. Doesn't mean you can assume they are going to be a non issue - definitely need to still pay attention to what the brakes are telling you.

Although the AP Racing bbk's are freaking awesome - I wouldn't tell someone before their first time out that they need to run out and get them. But I also wouldn't tell them not too... If someone is going to drop 10k on their car before heading out on the track for the first time I sure as heck would rather them do it on brakes or safety instead of 10k worth of more go fast parts - especially if I was going to be on that same track.

[5.M0NSTER]

Sure. If you have the money why not.

My suggestion for anyone with 10g to spend would be to invest in HANS, restraints and a fire extinguisher. Use the remaining 9g on instruction, seat time, track insurance and consumables like tires and pads.

Spending the money on Driver mod will help with safely getting faster. A lot more so that with just hardware upgrades. A lot of people can’t maximize factory Brembo calipers on track. Best way to overheat them is braking early and riding the brake till turn in. Driver error has a lot to do with this. So they sure as hell can’t maximize full on racing brakes.

[OG Shark]

Where the first 10k should go is not what I was getting at. OEM brakes with track pads & fluid will likely work well for most drivers for a time. But if someone is going to drop 10k on the car before hitting the track I sure as heck would rather it be on brakes (or safety like I also said) than bigger turbos or something like that. Obviously seat time, instruction, all that is very important.

[detroitm2]

Originally Posted by OG Shark

Where the first 10k should go is not what I was getting at. OEM brakes with track pads & fluid will likely work well for most drivers for a time. But if someone is going to drop 10k on the car before hitting the track I sure as heck would rather it be on brakes (or safety like I also said) than bigger turbos or something like that. Obviously seat time, instruction, all that is very important.

No one is disagreeing, but this is a far departure from the original statement of "OEM M2 Brakes are trash, you must spend $$$$$ on AP Racing brakes to track" statement that was made.

[jritt@essex]

I think a lot of the brake kit vs. pads/fluid issue boils down to how long you plan to own the car, and how frequently you plan to track it. The more you plan to track the car, the more money you will save with a complete AP Racing Radi-CAL Brake Kit. Someone who tracks their car frequently can pay off the brake kit in consumable (pads, discs, fluid) savings alone over the course of a few years.

Brake kits are primarily about heat management, but there are many other benefits as well. In the case of the M2 Competition, our unsprung weight savings is huge (25 lbs. off the nose and 12 lbs. off the tail). Some of the more intangible ones that people don't always consider:

Overall Convenience- This is a huge one on our M2 Competition BBK. Our calipers don’t need to be removed to swap pads. Our calipers only require the removal of two hex bolts to pull the pads, and it takes longer to raise the car and remove the wheels than it does to change pads on our system. Other convenience benefits are that since they run cooler they don’t need to be serviced as frequently as the OEM bits.

Preservation of OEM parts- Another biggie on the M2 Comp. When someone on BAT is looking to buy your car in eight years, they’re going to carefully examine the brakes since the OEM pieces are expensive to replace. The brakes are also a great tell-tale indicator of how hard a car has been driven. With our system, the OEM brakes come completely off the car at the wheel ends. They can go in a box and sit on the shelf until it’s time to sell the car. That means no tarnished paint, no cracked discs, no brake fluid splatters that remove the finish, etc. The brakes look brand new when you go to sell the car, and it doesn’t look like it went through war. That also means that you don’t need to go out and spend thousands of dollars on fresh brake components when you sell the car. You just grab them off your garage shelf and drop them back on the car. Nobody likes to spend money on something just to hand it off to a new owner!

Retained value of the brake kit- AP Racing has an incredibly strong brand, and the products are world-renowned for their durability. Most of the factory BMW racecars come with AP Racing brakes, and AP Racing components have won over 800 F1 races! BMW enthusiasts recognize the provenance of the brand, and as such they retain their value very well. Most of our customers get back 65-70% of the original purchase price when they sell our brake kits on the used markets. Most aftermarket components are lucky to garner 50% of the original price. So, if you remove and sell them when you sell your car, you’re bringing in thousands of dollars prior to the sale, rather than doling out thousands to refresh your brakes (remember, the OEM ones are still brand new on the garage shelf). Since are components are much more durable than stock, you’ll be replacing consumables much less frequently. That means less iron rings, less pads, and less fluid. When you do the math over the course of a couple years of tracking the car, that adds up to thousands of dollars saved.

Confidence- This is somewhat of an intangible, but it’s a very real factor that sets our brake system above the stock brakes. If you read reviews on our blog, you’ll see the word confidence over and over. You noted, “If you want to waste money on fantasy brake kits go ahead - let me know how much faster your lap times are. ” Many of our customers find that they do see a second or more improvement in lap time. Much of that is due to confidence. They forget about the brakes and focus on hitting brake markers. The repeatability of having everything feel exactly the same in every stop, all day long builds confidence and consistency, allowing for more superior lap times. You can read lots about this on our blog: https://www.essexparts.com/news-blog

Needs vs. wants- From a needs standpoint, it’s true that many owners can get by on stock brake calipers and discs with a pad and fluid swap. That depends on driver skill, the tracks being driven, tire choice, etc. Keep in mind however that your experience may not be the same as someone else’s (like the gent in the video earlier in this thread), even though you have the same car. We see this all the time over a broad spectrum of customers. There are a ton of variables. A novice driver on slick tires at Road America, Watkins Glen, or Sebring, with some engine upgrades may be far more brutal on their brakes than a pro driver at Willow Springs on stock tires. The difference in brake demands between those two scenarios are tremendous. Tire differences alone (as you’ve noted in previous comments) can account for very different demands placed on the brakes. One driver may find the wear rates of pads, discs, and fluid acceptable while running the stock calipers and discs, while another may find them violently excessive. Again, lots of variables to consider, and it’s not a one-size fits all situation. Also, the convenience factor of our kit alone is enough to sell some M2 Competition owners. Most of our clients in this market segment are successful professionals, and time is their most scarce commodity. They don’t want to fiddle with pad and disc changes, or bleeding fluid. They want to drive while they’re at the track, not wrench. They also are experienced enough to recognize a worthy investment when they see one, which is what our brake kit is. They spend a bit more up front, but through the lower running costs and equity in the used AP kit, and their minty OEM components…it makes a whole lot of financial sense when you run the numbers over the entire ownership period.

In summary, some people may feel that they need our kit, while others simply want it for all the reasons outlined above. There is a laundry list of tangible benefits, as well some intangibles. Some people want them just because they are used on F1 cars. There’s nothing wrong with that, because they are indeed bad@ss. Some people want them just because they look alien and far cooler than the OEM brakes. Again, nothing wrong with that. Some people want to save the close to 40 lbs. of unsprung weight, because it's tough to find that much weight to pull elsewhere on the car without butchering it. Some want our brake kit because their buddy doesn’t have them, and they get the bragging rights. Different strokes for different folks.

For some of our customers our brake kits are a need, while for others they are a want. If you read the reviews on our blog, or talk with one of our customers at the track, something you will find is that most of our clients consider our AP Racing Radi-CAL Brake Kit one of the most valuable, if not the most valuable, modification they’ve performed on their car.

[Twt]

The above summary is very well written and reasoned. I ran AP BBK on my C5 and they make a great product. As for your situation and most people on this forum, the factory brakes are fine....although you do need track pads and fluid.
I have added a DIY front cooling ducts for track duty. This set up will take you from beginner to advanced with no issues. I am an instructor, drive in advanced and compete in TT with my M2. On my home track at Road A I have to hard brake at 140-150 every lap for 10a and the brakes are as good as any street car I have driven. ( please,no Pcar comments!). I feel like a lot of drivers who have brake issues on most cars are simply dragging the brakes and building up heat unnecessarily....just MTC.

[m7ammed]

Originally Posted by Twt

The above summary is very well written and reasoned. I ran AP BBK on my C5 and they make a great product. As for your situation and most people on this forum, the factory brakes are fine....although you do need track pads and fluid.
I have added a DIY front cooling ducts for track duty. This set up will take you from beginner to advanced with no issues. I am an instructor, drive in advanced and compete in TT with my M2. On my home track at Road A I have to hard brake at 140-150 every lap for 10a and the brakes are as good as any street car I have driven. ( please,no Pcar comments!). I feel like a lot of drivers who have brake issues on most cars are simply dragging the brakes and building up heat unnecessarily....just MTC.

Would you need lines as well?

[M2joey]

Great post and great points made, Jritt.

If you are going to track the car heavily, a big brake kit is a good option. You will have brakes that can take the abuse, non stop. You will also preserve the OEM brakes.

Although, the OEM brakes are great! Much better then what most are aware of or really understand. I have just completed my 61st track day on my OEM brakes and they are still rock solid! I have been through a few sets of fronts rotors, two rear sets, and a sh*t load of pads, of course. I brake my M2 very hard, ask the numerous people in this forum who I have taken out for a session.

This past weekend I had a newer student in an OG M2 with a "big brake kit", front and rear. He was rough on and off the brakes, was still becoming familiar with them. I didn't fully understand completely until I drove his car for a session. The brakes would literally put you through the window! Super hard initial bite, huge stopping power, way beyond the tires and drivers skill set IMO. Certainly much tougher to live with in a rain / wet as well. I drove an M2 with APs on the front and they felt more similar to the OEM brakes, which is what you want. The pads play a big part in this as well. Again, the OEM brakes are great. I feel the learning curve that most go through the braking technique is the biggest issue and the brakes end taking the bad wrap for it.

[Megator]

Originally Posted by isjoey

I feel the learning curve that most go through the braking technique is the biggest issue and the brakes end taking the bad wrap for it.

What is the best technique? one hard stomp?

I also think that as a beginner you shed too much speed that overloads the brakes.

[5.M0NSTER]

The biggest mistake is getting on the brakes early, shedding all the speed you need by the 3rd marker, than riding the brakes. This heats them up a lot more than needed.

With track pads the best thing to do is brake late and hard. Start breaking at the 3 marker, ramp in pressure from 0 to full in 0.7s or so to let the weight transfer forward, than stay hard on the brakes till you’ve shed enough momentum, then smoothly release.

But only with proper pads. You need strong bite to be able to do this successfully.

[M2joey]

Originally Posted by Megator

What is the best technique? one hard stomp?

I also think that as a beginner you shed too much speed that overloads the brakes.

Basically, yes. The amount of brake to use of course depends on speed, turn type, apex, etc. For high speed braking the best practice is hard as you can letting off as you slow, staying just above the point where ABS will kick-in. You will not overload the brakes. You certainly do not need to start off braking as hard as you or the car can brake. Once you get some practice you will start to develop the technique.

Most newer drivers will ride the brakes too long at a lower pressure. Between this and traction control being On, the brakes get overheated, just like 5.Monster mentioned.

[5.M0NSTER]

Originally Posted by isjoey

Basically, yes. The amount of brake to use of course depends on speed, turn type, apex, etc. For high speed braking the best practice is hard as you can letting off as you slow, staying just above the point where ABS will kick-in. You will not overload the brakes. You certainly do not need to start off braking as hard as you or the car can brake. Once you get some practice you will start to develop the technique.

Most newer drivers will ride the brakes too long at a lower pressure. Between this and traction control being On, the brakes get overheated, just like 5.Monster mentioned.

I learned this the hard way and over a number of seasons and track pad sets. Now my motto is "Don't brake till you see God"

But if I'm honest it takes me half the day to work up the courage to heed my own advice. The self preservation instinct is too strong. Charging into a 90 deg downhill corner at 140mph is scary and the brain wants to hit the brakes too soon. Must be trained.

[Twt]

Originally Posted by isjoey

Great post and great points made, Jritt.

If you are going to track the car heavily, a big brake kit is a good option. You will have brakes that can take the abuse, non stop. You will also preserve the OEM brakes.

Although, the OEM brakes are great! Much better then what most are aware of or really understand. I have just completed my 61st track day on my OEM brakes and they are still rock solid! I have been through a few sets of fronts rotors, two rear sets, and a sh*t load of pads, of course. I brake my M2 very hard, ask the numerous people in this forum who I have taken out for a session.

This past weekend I had a newer student in an OG M2 with a "big brake kit", front and rear. He was rough on and off the brakes, was still becoming familiar with them. I didn't fully understand completely until I drove his car for a session. The brakes would literally put you through the window! Super hard initial bite, huge stopping power, way beyond the tires and drivers skill set IMO. Certainly much tougher to live with in a rain / wet as well. I drove an M2 with APs on the front and they felt more similar to the OEM brakes, which is what you want. The pads play a big part in this as well. Again, the OEM brakes are great. I feel the learning curve that most go through the braking technique is the biggest issue and the brakes end taking the bad wrap for it.

[Megator]

Originally Posted by isjoey

For high speed braking the best practice is hard as you can letting off as you slow, staying just above the point where ABS will kick-in.

Not sure I get what you mean here, start off hard and then ease off?

OK great to hear, I am practicing this now as in the past I was being too "self preservationy"

I am now getting to the point where a bit more pressure usually kicks the car into ABS or ice mode? Not sure what it is but I can feel individual wheels "pulsing" however no kickback from the brake pedal which I thought was a sign of the ABS engaging.

[M2joey]

Originally Posted by Megator

Not sure I get what you mean here, start off hard and then ease off?

OK great to hear, I am practicing this now as in the past I was being too "self preservationy"

I am now getting to the point where a bit more pressure usually kicks the car into ABS or ice mode? Not sure what it is but I can feel individual wheels "pulsing" however no kickback from the brake pedal which I thought was a sign of the ABS engaging.

Ha.

When you put your foot on the brake, push as hard as you can, initially. When you start to slow start lighten the pressure you are applying to the brake. At this point you may or many not feel the ABS kicking-in. You will feel the pulsing feel you mentioned and the tires might also start to chirp from one to another, you are in ABS. The ABS on the M2 is very very good, you can also certainly be in ABS and not even realize it. It is ok to be in ABS, nothing bad about that, you just don't want to be in it constantly. If you are you are more than likely over braking. It is a bit of a balancing act. You never want to be in ABS trail braking into a turn, way too hot.

The braking pressure to use will also be different and change based on a number of variables. Example, the OEM Conti's will get you into ABS much easier than say RE-71Rs, just because the RE-71s have more grip. Grip level, brake heat level, pads thickness, track temp, outside temp., etc. all change. You constantly need to adjust to all of them of course as well.

[KHAP13]

Has anyone experienced an inconsistent brake pedal feel with the OG M2 on track? I have done a lot of research but could only find discussions of this issue on an E90 thread, an talks about ice pedal in Porsche threads, which doesn't seem to be my case.

I have noticed variations between how firm the pedal is during braking on the same lap -- some corners it is very firm and confidence inspiring, others not so much. My perception is it has to do with how quickly I apply the brakes. It seems that if I am very quick/aggressive on the brakes I am usually met with firm pedal, but if I am a little less aggressive I get a longer feeling less confidence inspiring spongyish feel. It can be softer in one corner and firm in the next on the same lap. It feels similar to when brake fluid gets too hot, but since the feel alternates between braking zones I don't think the fluid is the issue.

Alos, it does not appear that stopping power is impacted much (Looking at data from RaceChrono and judging by braking points), but the inconsistent feel makes it really hard to trust, and is a bit annoying.

If I had to guess, I would say its related to how much the system is boosting the brake pressure.... maybe a system reaction to certain preemptive or reactive ABS conditions (never felt ABS pulsing in the pedal). Or something related to safety system like the collision avoidance...Other things I have considered is pad knock back (does that happen on these brakes?).

I have bled the system a few times with Motive power bleeder (although I don't have the software for bleeding the ABS block), and never had air bubbles in the lines.

-Manual 2018 M2 with RSL29, RBF600, Cup 2s, otherwise stock car.
-Happens in Sport+ and DSC off (haven't tried other modes)
-Tracks Hockenheim and Nurburgring GP (both pretty had on brakes IMO).

I am really at a loss for how to make the situation better. Any thoughts or advice are greatly appreciated. Thanks!