[Zippster]

Originally Posted by Spa2k

In the U.S., it's not just charging infrastructure, it's the electric grid for the entire country, which is made up of everything from brand-new technologies to pieces that were designed 75 years ago. It is very fragile, with the possibility of one breaker being tripped, one piece of equipment failing or one programming mistake being made that can instantly black out a multi-state region of the country. Massive adoption of electric cars would cause the grid - which is, in reality, the largest machine in the country - to collapse. So, if we're serious about electric cars, we need to push our legislators to pay significant attention to upgrading the grid.

For now, the smartest thing to do for load management on the grid (and to cut costs for vehicle owners) is to recharge electric vehicles overnight, when demand is lowest on the grid and thus the cost for producing (and using) electricity is lowest. During the day in winter and summer, many electric systems across the country already are "peaking" - approaching or surpassing their capacity for producing enough electricity to meet demand, and the worst thing that can happen is for a bunch of electric vehicles to be added to the load before, say, 9 p.m. The goal has to be educating the public to help even out demand to more of a 24-hour basis than exists now; if that doesn't happen, electricity rationing is a possibility in some areas.

I agree. Unless a large portion of EVs can be recharged at home with solar power the whole country going EV is unlikely. In order to charge one in a timely manner it takes a 240V and I think 50 amp breaker. Most homes will need to have that run to the garage - if they have one. I doubt all this will happen in 15 years.

[DETRoadster]

Originally Posted by Spa2k

You've definitely got to give Tesla credit for developing new technologies and having the biggest cajones in the world of auto manufacturing, but at some point the company has to start making money.

It's all about the Gigafactory. Build the worlds biggest battery plant to make bigger, better, cheaper batteries. Then give away the patents and IP surrounding the motors and drive systems. Get the technology into as many different makes of EV as possible and sell them all batteries to power them. Ask yourself this: Who makes more money? The guys who build cars or the guys who sell fuel?

Now if only there was a pipeline to re-purpose old EV LiIon batteries that cant charge/discharge quickly enough to be useful in EVs but still have a long happy life slowly soaking up a charge and slowly giving it back. You know, the kind of usage profile one might see if you stored a bank of batteries at your house and charged them up slowly during the day with solar power and harvested the energy at night.

That Elon Musk, he aint no dummy....

[Zippster]

Originally Posted by stefan

Such as? Feel free to point me in the direction or large battery manufactures who are currently recycling. Last I checked it makes zero sense to recycle lithion batteries when mining it or brine extraction is so cheap.. That's even if it did make sense from a potential energy standpoint.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...cle-recycling/

Don't be so lazy. I think they even do this in Canada.

[Spa2k]

Originally Posted by Zippster

I agree. Unless a large portion of EVs can be recharged at home with solar power the whole country going EV is unlikely. In order to charge one in a timely manner it takes a 240V and I think 50 amp breaker. Most homes will need to have that run to the garage - if they have one. I doubt all this will happen in 15 years.

Solar power is definitely part of the answer, but how will anyone recharge an EV with solar power, unless they're home during the day when the sun's out? Using solar to send power to any type of battery storage system so you can charge your EV later is outrageously expensive, and the payback is longer than you'd ever own the car. Some people get so excited about the technology that they forget to calculate all the costs; just saying "I saved $100 on gas this month" is only part of the picture.

However, there is a pretty workable solution. During the day, solar panels supply most or all of the power your home needs - at lower demand than when the whole family's home before or after work and school - and you sell the excess solar power to your local utility. Late at night, you plug in your EV to recharge using the lowest-cost power from your utility, which is producing excess power due to lower demand.

[Spa2k]

Originally Posted by DETRoadster

It's all about the Gigafactory. Build the worlds biggest battery plant to make bigger, better, cheaper batteries.>>>That Elon Musk, he aint no dummy....

The problem is that he seems to be building a monster building to churn out lots and lots of AAs. For real innovation in batteries, watch Panasonic and Samsung, which has announced that in 2021 it will have a battery that will give EVs a range of 310 miles on a 20-minute, mid-trip charge (assuming you leave home with a full charge).

That's almost good enough to get me over range anxiety!

[DETRoadster]

Originally Posted by Spa2k

The problem is that he seems to be building a monster building to churn out lots and lots of AAs. For real innovation in batteries, watch Panasonic and Samsung, which has announced that in 2021 it will have a battery that will give EVs a range of 310 miles on a 20-minute, mid-trip charge (assuming you leave home with a full charge).

That's almost good enough to get me over range anxiety!

Well, not exactly AA's. They use 18650s. Significantly larger than a AA. The form factor has some real advantages to it:

1) Thousands of little cylinders standing up on end form an incredibly strong structure.

2) By using lots of little batteries instead of one big one, thermal events can be better managed. If one 18650 cell shorts and catches fire it can be managed within the battery case. If you had one gigantic battery, the results of a fire would be catastrophic to say the least.

[zenmaster]

Originally Posted by Zippster

I agree. Unless a large portion of EVs can be recharged at home with solar power the whole country going EV is unlikely.

I don't get the logic here. The idea is to charge overnight. Most homes can get a NEMA 14-50 installed today. What's the problem.

[stefan]

Originally Posted by Zippster

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...cle-recycling/

Don't be so lazy. I think they even do this in Canada.

If you read the article you will find there is very little to NO application for recycling batteries into other batteries. While some of the raw materials can be reused for other things, that potential energy is gone. My point is that if there isn't much market for those materials these days, why would there be more demand when it starts flooding the market?

[Zippster]

Originally Posted by zenmaster

I don't get the logic here. The idea is to charge overnight. Most homes can get a NEMA 14-50 installed today. What's the problem.

True, can't recharge overnight with solar, good point - previously made. You will have to have two cars one charging while you are using the other!

[Zippster]

Originally Posted by stefan

If you read the article you will find there is very little to NO application for recycling batteries into other batteries. While some of the raw materials can be reused for other things, that potential energy is gone. My point is that if there isn't much market for those materials these days, why would there be more demand when it starts flooding the market?

Fine, you are correct, there are No repeat No plans to ever recycle batteries, it's a huge conspiracy intent on destroying the planet. Feel better?

[Spa2k]

Originally Posted by DETRoadster

Well, not exactly AA's. They use 18650s. Significantly larger than a AA. The form factor has some real advantages to it

Wow, you guys are entirely too serious around here. Satirically speaking, bigger isn't always better. I'm hoping for new form factors and chemistry that will simplify the production of battery "systems" and result in much lower weight.

All I want (straightforwardly stated, with no attempt at any level of humor) is a Z1- or Miata-sized electric two-seat torque monster that will run the 1/4-mile in under 10 seconds - with a range of 350 miles, so I can get to my mother's house without a recharging stop.

See you in 10 years.

[M2Nebula]

Maybe this was covered already?.....but why not just design a solar roof panel and/or trunk lid and hood? Might look better than carbon if the cells were small enough and the contour(s) worked well into the overall design. Never looked into what it would weigh though, so that may be one negative factor. Wouldn't this allow charging while you drive? Overcast areas like the PNW may be less suitable, except during their beautiful summer months.

[Spa2k]

Originally Posted by Quadz

Maybe this was covered already?.....but why not just design a solar roof panel and/or trunk lid and hood? Might look better than carbon if the cells were small enough and the contour(s) worked well into the overall design. Never looked into what it would weigh though, so that may be one negative factor. Wouldn't this allow charging while you drive? Overcast areas like the PNW may be less suitable, except during their beautiful summer months.

Good idea, but there's currently not enough horizontal surface on a standard-sized car to produce enough energy to power it - unless you work for NASA and could borrow a few zillion-dollar solar panels from satellites or rovers. However, a solar panel the size of a moonroof will supply enough power to run a fan to ventilate a car on a hot day or possibly supplement the car's electrical system to help power accessories. Another issue is that the peak output of solar panels is very dependent on cleanliness - just a light dusting from driving a few miles down the road could affect their output by around 20%.

The good news is that these problems are solvable - just not anytime soon. In the meantime, stock up on California Car Dusters!

[stefan]

Originally Posted by Zippster

Fine, you are correct, there are No repeat No plans to ever recycle batteries, it's a huge conspiracy intent on destroying the planet. Feel better?

Easy there. If there is no market for battery byproducts, you won't see them being recycled. You know we talk endlessly about cumulative effects from other industries, growing pollution and non-biodegradable waste. We talk about GHGs and increase water use. But what we seem to happily ignore is the fact that, no, you can't really re-use most parts of these enormous batteries and we will at some point need to address how to dispose of these. We'll also need to talk about the significantly increased pressure on mining, shipping, and global manufacturing.

I'm not saying it's doom and gloom or a conspiracy. Just balancing the equation here that, while we can all get on board with electric cars, we haven't seen them in significant volume yet to really be forced to reconcile these negative side effects. Like so often you hear the proud trumpeting of "the whole world could easily convert to electric cars". But it simply isn't true.

Originally Posted by Quadz

Maybe this was covered already?.....but why not just design a solar roof panel and/or trunk lid and hood? Might look better than carbon if the cells were small enough and the contour(s) worked well into the overall design. Never looked into what it would weigh though, so that may be one negative factor. Wouldn't this allow charging while you drive? Overcast areas like the PNW may be less suitable, except during their beautiful summer months.

Poor throughput would defeat the economics of installing one. If on the roof, most of the panel will be at a considerably sub optimal angle. Flat is never really the best, you want to angle to take advantage of directed irradiance. Weight likely wouldn't be a huge problem as the heaviest part of the system, the batteries, are already in the car. But it's more the lack of surface area, poor angle, likely covering of dust/dirt that make it unfeasible. Add to that, it would substantially increase the price of the car right out of whatever segment it was priced in.

[DETRoadster]

Originally Posted by Spa2k

Wow, you guys are entirely too serious around here. Satirically speaking, bigger isn't always better. I'm hoping for new form factors and chemistry that will simplify the production of battery "systems" and result in much lower weight.

All I want (straightforwardly stated, with no attempt at any level of humor) is a Z1- or Miata-sized electric two-seat torque monster that will run the 1/4-mile in under 10 seconds - with a range of 350 miles, so I can get to my mother's house without a recharging stop.

See you in 10 years.

Wasnt sure if you were just joking. A ton of folks actually think they have AAs in them! Didn't want to assume.

The Tesla roadster isn't too far off your wish list there! I hear they are considering doing a refresh on it.

Yeah, I totally agree on better battery tech and form factors. It's bound to happen. I think the next 10 to 20 years are going to be pretty damn cool!