[bri1042]

It's hard to really compare tires on our own cars. I've had a total of three sets of wheels for this car and now 4 sets of tires (788's with MPSS's, 641's with square 235 Alpin 4's...the 641 set isn't square but uses the same size tires on all 4, Apex EC-7's with PS4S 265/295's, and now back on the 788's with Conti DWS06 245/265's).

I sold my 641's as having three sets of wheels for one car is a total waste of garage space (I was getting grrr'd at by my SO).

I ran the EC-7's with the fat PS4S's from the end of spring, though the summer and until about two weeks ago.

Shortly after I sold my 641's, I put my 788's back on with the intent of dumping the MPSS's for something that could retain some enjoyment through the endless rain of a Portland Metro "winter". I was very quickly met with a total hate for what's left of my MPSS's.

My MPSS's have about 8k miles on them total and I wasn't that gentle with them. I loved these tires at first with a few caveats. They were so loud and so harsh, from day one and I felt it got WORSE as they aged. Dry and warm/wet traction on them was great when they were new but I feel that they degraded, especially in regards to wet traction, too much by the time they had 5k miles on them. Traction below 50 degrees F based on the TPMS temp gauge also degraded too much, even for summer tires. I has happy to see them go and they were nowhere near the wear bars. My final impression of the MPSS is that it's a tire that does not belong in the Pacific Northwest except in July and August. It is a California tire.

Apex and fatter PS4S's were a total dream combination this summer. I can't say enough about how much fun the car was with this wheel and tire set. There was a slight drop in playfulness that was seriously offset by the increased traction, superior comfort, and lower noise. I need another summer on them since I wasn't as negative on the MPSS setup until after they had more miles on them than the PS4S's do (they have about 4.5k on them already...I did a lot of long solo drives to stave off quarantine boredom), and this is what I mean by "it's hard to really compare tires on our own cars". The 4S's didn't seem to degrade as steeply as temps dropped below 50F as the MPSS's had, but I did a short drive in the high 30's and it was clear they weren't a safe tire to keep on the car year round (of course...they're still summer tires).

The enjoyment cliff I fell off of when I switched back to the stock wheels and tires isn't a clear comparison. The MPSS's have a couple thousand more miles on them than the PS4S's do, so I don't think the comparison is clear. And, when my MPSS's were new, the whole car was new to me so I don't think I was as ready to pick apart subtle differences.

The 641's were an interesting tire to drive for the two winters I had them. Wet performance in cool and cold weather was stellar. The skinnier tires were interesting, and I don't have much bad to say about them. If I had had these tires in the stock sizes on the 788's, I think I would have been pretty happy with them in this area. I sincerely wish I'd actually gotten to drive them through some snow but those two winters didn't afford me the opportunity. They got really interesting when the afternoon temps started to rise in the spring. I put my summer wheels (the MPSS/788) back on earlier than I usually do as I thought I was likely be harming the tires. I'm glad I did this as they were in good shape when they went to their new owner, who lives in a different part of the metro and apparently gets a bit more snow than we do in my area.

I made a likely controversial choice for the PDX-version-of-winter tires to go on my 788's over the last week. I was planning on doing stock-size Alpin 4's but was having difficulties sourcing them. I went with Conti DWS06's. This is a bit of a $1000 experiment. The DWS06 is an inferior tire to the Michelin AS/4 and 3+ in warm dry weather. It's not as good at braking, and it isn't as good in a few other areas. But it exceeds almost every tire tested by most testers in wet performance. In my area (not necessarily yours), we spend 6 months in a near constant cold/rainy environment rather than snow and freezing temps. The tires on our fun cars need to allow for some fun, and as much safety as possible, during those conditions. I had the AS/3+ on my 340i X-Drive for two winters and they were less than I'd hoped they'd be in our environment (but still pretty good). The A/S3+ was awful in light snow but oddly not terrible in heavier snow the one time I got an opportunity to drive the car in it.

If anyone is interested, I'll report back in the spring on how the DWS's did overall for this environment.

Caveat - I am not trying this experiment in Michigan, Minnesota, California, Canada, Washington DC, or anywhere else. I would NOT recommend skipping real winter tires in a real snow state on this car. I would never recommend any "no-season" tire in states that don't actually experience much of a Winter. This experiment is about finding the right tire for the Portland metro rainy season, not Florida or Alaska. If the car is undrivable in even light snow, my SO's 530e X-drive is available to get us where we need to go.

[bri1042]

Update:

The DWS-06 do feel a bit more like a touring tire overall. Acceleration and braking performance are both muted a bit more than I'd like, but comfort is significantly improved.

Which is good and bad. Considering that fun driving opportunities are certainly reduced when the weather is frightful, a bit of extra comfort during these months might be OK in the long run. Not sure how I'll feel about that long term, though.

[mr_lab_rat]

Very interesting read. I'm in PNW and I'm not experiencing the MPSS troubles you describe. Maybe because I haven't experienced the greatness of the 4S' yet.

My MPSS have around 15k on them and still perform as I would expect.

The Hankook EVO 12 I had on the supercharged e46 was a California tire. Switching to MPSS from those felt like a miracle.

[bngcruiser]

Originally Posted by bri1042

Update:

The DWS-06 do feel a bit more like a touring tire overall. Acceleration and braking performance are both muted a bit more than I'd like, but comfort is significantly improved.

Which is good and bad. Considering that fun driving opportunities are certainly reduced when the weather is frightful, a bit of extra comfort during these months might be OK in the long run. Not sure how I'll feel about that long term, though.

I just ordered DWS-06's and am having them put on my stock wheels this Saturday (first time using TireRack's at home install service).

I am fine giving up some levels of fun to be able to drive the car here on the dry cold days in Denver (car will stay in the garage any time there is a chance of precipitation). I'll drive the FJ62 on days with rain/snow through the winter months.

[bri1042]

Mr. Rat - always possible that MY set of MPSS's aren't a good example or something. Make millions of the same things and some of them won't be as good as the rest of them, of course. Or I burned my rear tires fast? I don't know. Another reason why it's hard to do "comparisons" with a limited sample set. They were still fine on warm roads once they were warmed up before I put the fat 4S's on in May.

The striking moments with them were when I switched back to them in late November and they were just drastically less pleasant than the 4S's. At their worst, though, they were still better than the run-flat Bridgestone summers that were on my 340i.

BC - let me know what you think. Very interested in another opinion! Especially after we both break them in. I also found my mobile installer through TireRack. It worked out great. I may bring the guy back to change back to my summer wheels rather than doing it myself in the spring.

[RYTM2]

Enjoyed the comparisons, especially the feedback on the Apex wider set up! I assume you are on a stock suspension?

[VisualEcho]

Your experience is pretty normal.

The PSS is a pure Summer tire and fantastic in that capacity, but with some miles they become really slippery and loud.

The PS4S is a better choice in every way, newer design, but will end up EXACTLY like a worn PSS.

The DWS is an all season (no season) tire that will last longer, be quieter, and perform more to its capacity as it ages, but won't offer anywhere near the grip and road feel.

PSS/PS4S are 5,000 mile tires, after that they lose their luster.

The DWS is a 10,000 mile tire, and loses less of its luster.

If you go through tires a lot, you really should try the Firehawk Indy for a Summer tire, it's really fantastic, and the price is as well.

[bri1042]

I don't so much mind killing tires relatively fast. Silly, but I'm just now getting to 16k miles on my M2C and it's 27 months old, and that's against multiple tire and wheel sets. Getting 30k miles out of a tire would cover almost 4 years...it would be nice, but the monetary savings aren't huge compared to the cost of the car itself. So not a big deal one way or the other.

RY - Yes, stock suspension. I have a dumb driveway and can't lower the car unless I want to park on the street.

[bri1042]

Additional comment: THIS is why it's hard for US to review tires. We aren't swapping apples for apples, or in this case NEW MPSS's for NEW 4S's. We're all mostly swapping worn MPSS's for new, not yet broken in, 4S's or other tires.

[marcw]

I'm debating on the brand new Conti DWS06 Plus just released last month and Goodyear Eagle Exhilarate for my PDX non summer set. Decisions decisions lol.

[bri1042]

I kept meaning to come back to post an update:

The DWS06's are certainly broken in now. I've actually put a good number of miles on the car this "winter" on random drives to offset the cabin fever caused by working from home. I've driven on them in EVERY amount of rain that most folk could imagine short of a Tsunami.

Overall stability in the wet is absolutely fantastic. I've never experienced a tire this good at retaining control in the wet. The PS4S's in heavy WARM wet weather did just fine, but even down to near-freezing temps, these tires kept me in control of my car in everything from a light mist to "I can only see 3 feet past my hood" rain. They even allow some very frisky launches on cool, wet roads without getting twitchy. I couldn't be more impressed.

Fun-factor and dry (but chilly) weather - There is no doubt that these tires dull the experience compared to PS4S's and non-worn MPSS's in warmer weather. They are a more comfortable and quieter ride, but I would never choose to run them in the summer. In colder weather, I'd RATHER have the duller edge and still be able to use the car as I choose, so they absolutely win over keeping MPSS of PS4S's on. Outright grip in cooler weather is absolutely dandy. Short story - they do what I need them to, but they do dull the experience a bit.

Snow Driving - Haven't had a chance. I almost did yesterday, but the falling snow turned into falling ice and the Michigan boy in me shouted a clear "stay home", which I obeyed. Enough actual snow has fallen overnight that I could give it a whirl, but it's possibly too deep at the moment, and I'm concerned about the being able to get back up my utterly stupid driveway to the garage. I'm likely giving it a miss today. Sigh.

Overall, I'm entirely satisfied with this choice. This is the third winter that I've had this car, and this has been the most enjoyable of them. The dulled "sport" factors of the drive are entirely overridden by the absolutely excellent wet traction and control. I won't hesitate to change back to my 4S's as soon as it's reasonable to do so, though.

One other note - These things don't tramline much at all. Which is great.

[RYTM2]

Originally Posted by VisualEcho

Your experience is pretty normal.

The PSS is a pure Summer tire and fantastic in that capacity, but with some miles they become really slippery and loud.

The PS4S is a better choice in every way, newer design, but will end up EXACTLY like a worn PSS.

The DWS is an all season (no season) tire that will last longer, be quieter, and perform more to its capacity as it ages, but won't offer anywhere near the grip and road feel.

PSS/PS4S are 5,000 mile tires, after that they lose their luster.

The DWS is a 10,000 mile tire, and loses less of its luster.

If you go through tires a lot, you really should try the Firehawk Indy for a Summer tire, it's really fantastic, and the price is as well.

I did a spec comparison between the Firehawk and some of its competitors and noticed that they were 3lbs heavier per tire. Anything to be concerned about?

BRI1042 : Enjoyed the comparisons as well, especially the EC-7 commentary. Value wise, hard to ignore these wheels.

[RYTM2]

Originally Posted by RYTM2

Enjoyed the comparisons, especially the feedback on the Apex wider set up! I assume you are on a stock suspension?

Strange? I didn't post this commentary.....

[VisualEcho]

Originally Posted by RYTM2

I did a spec comparison between the Firehawk and some of its competitors and noticed that they were 3lbs heavier per tire. Anything to be concerned about?

Concerned? No. Even within the PSS/PS4S/PSC2 there are similar weight differences. And on such a heavy car, it's no worries.

[bri1042]

I certainly wouldn't worry about slightly heavier tires. If any of us are concerned about un-sprung weight and we aren't getting rid of our heavy insanity brakes first, we're being a bit silly. But I might be a bad person to ask since I'm not focused on finding that last tenth of a second to shave off my lap times.

[deesdn]

BRI1042 - your comparisons are making me second guess my soon-to-be tire swap to DWS06+. I ran Conti DWS and then DWS06 on my WRX hatchback before getting into an M2C April of last year. I felt like the Contis were a great tire year-round in Seattle for that vehicle, but I am unsure with the BMW since it's significantly higher performance. I know a few other M2C owners locally that run DWS06+ year round, but when you mention it muting braking and accel, that sounds like a huge bummer to me, and I really want my money's worth with my 'fun car'. Is it really that bad? Would DWS06+ be a mistake to run year-round in Seattle? I am not really tracking my vehicles, and let's face it, our summers are pretty short up here, maybe more so than PDX? It doesn't seem worth it to own summer wheels and tires given that we get at most two months of dry warm weather. I think it was less than a month this year.

It's also probably significantly more hilly in Seattle. If conditions are super bad here (lots of snow), we'll take my wife's Audi SUV to get places, but I've already spun the Bimmer out and lost traction in rain (when I don't want to), and can't even get up some ramps into parking garages when it rains. I've got 10k on the MPSS it came with, and I am really not a fan of them, so they need to go.