[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by dvas

Excerpt I pulled from the article:

"The invisible magic is in the new compound. Bridgestone focused particularly on consistency with the RE-71RS. Folks who have sampled the RE-71R (myself included, but more on that later), know that it had one hugely fast lap time in it, but fell off during a long session. This is how the old tire got its reputation as an autocross “cheater” tire. The RE-71RS goes faster than the RE-71R, and does it for an entire race stint with minimal wear."

This is encouraging as I continue to search for a better HPDE tire than the NT01s, IMO. I tried a few sets of the original RE71R and liked them. They were ready to go on the first lap and had great communication which made them easy to drive fast. They were marginally faster (a few tenths around LRP) than NT01s but died after a single hot lap or two, which takes a lot of the fun out of a session. Also, my 275/18 square set lasted all of four days with rotation and were considerably more expensive than NT01s.

If Bridgestone has been able to solve the consistency issue, that is a hugely appealing. That the new ones are even faster on a single lap is a bonus.

Edit, check this out:

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/fo.../228236/page1/



It looks like they recently updated the table and now it doesn't seem to make sense to me. NT01s, used to be rated at "B" for Time Trial Pace but now they are a "C", slower than Sport Cup 2s and most other 200 treadwear tires? My experience does not support that at all. Also, a "D" for heat tolerance and "B" for wear? NT01s are the some of the most consistent tires I've tried and will not get greasy for a 20 minute session except when sliding them a lot on the hottest of days. They also don't heat cycle out, and get faster down to the chords which in my experience takes about 7 full, dry days. None of the 200 treadwear tires I've tried come close, yet they are rated the same of better for wear?

Having said that, I'm not married to the NT01s and would love to discover a better tire, but this updated table does not seem accurate or consistent.

Better than the RS4s?

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by dvas

Excerpt I pulled from the article:

"The invisible magic is in the new compound. Bridgestone focused particularly on consistency with the RE-71RS. Folks who have sampled the RE-71R (myself included, but more on that later), know that it had one hugely fast lap time in it, but fell off during a long session. This is how the old tire got its reputation as an autocross “cheater” tire. The RE-71RS goes faster than the RE-71R, and does it for an entire race stint with minimal wear."

This is encouraging as I continue to search for a better HPDE tire than the NT01s, IMO. I tried a few sets of the original RE71R and liked them. They were ready to go on the first lap and had great communication which made them easy to drive fast. They were marginally faster (a few tenths around LRP) than NT01s but died after a single hot lap or two, which takes a lot of the fun out of a session. Also, my 275/18 square set lasted all of four days with rotation and were considerably more expensive than NT01s.

If Bridgestone has been able to solve the consistency issue, that is a hugely appealing. That the new ones are even faster on a single lap is a bonus.



It looks like they recently updated the table and now it doesn't seem to make sense to me. NT01s, used to be rated at "B" for Time Trial Pace but now they are a "C", slower than Sport Cup 2s and most other 200 treadwear tires? My experience does not support that at all. Also, a "D" for heat tolerance and "B" for wear? NT01s are the some of the most consistent tires I've tried and will not get greasy for a 20 minute session except when sliding them a lot on the hottest of days. They also don't heat cycle out, and get faster down to the chords which in my experience takes about 7 full, dry days. None of the 200 treadwear tires I've tried come close, yet they are rated the same of better for wear?

Having said that, I'm not married to the NT01s and would love to discover a better tire, but this updated table does not seem accurate or consistent.

Better than the RS4s?

Edit, check this out:

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/fo.../228236/page1/

[dvas]

Originally Posted by FaRKle!

Hrm. I can't say my experience matched yours with the NT01. I definitely had them heat cycle out on me well before the cords, and really didn't find any benefit with them over the RS4.

That's interesting. I think you're the first person I've heard say they feel like their NT01s heat cycled. Perhaps the examples sent you had an old manufacture date, were stored in freezing temps at one point, or something along those lines...

Grassroots motorsports concurred with my experience that they are great right to the chords.

Of course, they also go onto say they are as fast as the 200 treadwear cheater tires but then gave them a score two grades below? How is that a consistent point of view?

"Like the Nankang AR-1, [NT01] is another 100tw track day special that delivers on par with today’s Super-200s for single-lap pace. But it can repeat that trick lap after lap, session after session—all the way to the cords. Sizing and availability are somewhat limited, but it’s still a favorite among many track rats."

[dvas]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Better than the RS4s?

Edit, check this out:

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/fo.../228236/page1/

I don't know how the NT01s match up against than the RS4s in terms of looking solely at wear rates. I've never run RS4s but have heard they wear fantastically well. Unfortunately, I've also heard they offer considerably less grip than NT01s or RE71s, and have not seen anyone post a lap time with RS4s that's competitive with a fast time with NT01s, RE71s or other 200 treadwear tires. So I wasn't really considering RS4s when I wrote that.


The way I look at tires, for my personal HPDE enjoyment, I prioritize:
1 (a). Pace - Long/Lat grip as it translates into more competitive times
1 (b). Consistency - Tires ability to deliver grip at consistent levels for a typical 20 minute HPDE session
2. Minimal Impact of Heat Cycling - Ability to experience minimum loss of grip after repeated heat cycles / sessions, e.g. not Hoosiers
3. Longevity - HPDE Days a tire can execute before choring
4. Cost for a set
5. Wet performance


If heat cycling wasn't such an issue with Hoosiers, I'd just run those. But I don't want to buy expensive new rubber every three days. NT01s have always offered a great compromise across the board, but admittedly, they are old tech. Just not sure what's a better overall tire based off of my priorities. Some tires (Old RE71R's) are maybe faster for a single lap, but then overhear and you spend 15 of 20 min trying to manage their temps.

I might try the new RE71RS's next time around and see if my experience is consistent with all of the accolades these tires are currently getting. Goodyear Supercar 3R were also a consideration, but I'm hearing conflicting things about consistency and longevity...

[M1500Z]

Originally Posted by dvas

I don't know how the NT01s match up against than the RS4s in terms of looking solely at wear rates. I've never run RS4s but have heard they wear fantastically well. Unfortunately, I've also heard they offer considerably less grip than NT01s or RE71s, and have not seen anyone post a lap time with RS4s that's competitive with a fast time with NT01s, RE71s or other 200 treadwear tires. So I wasn't really considering RS4s when I wrote that.


The way I look at tires, for my personal HPDE enjoyment, I prioritize:
1 (a). Pace - Long/Lat grip as it translates into more competitive times
1 (b). Consistency - Tires ability to deliver grip at consistent levels for a typical 20 minute HPDE session
2. Minimal Impact of Heat Cycling - Ability to experience minimum loss of grip after repeated heat cycles / sessions, e.g. not Hoosiers
3. Longevity - HPDE Days a tire can execute before choring
4. Cost for a set
5. Wet performance


If heat cycling wasn't such an issue with Hoosiers, I'd just run those. But I don't want to buy expensive new rubber every three days. NT01s have always offered a great compromise across the board, but admittedly, they are old tech. Just not sure what's a better overall tire based off of my priorities. Some tires (Old RE71R's) are maybe faster for a single lap, but then overhear and you spend 15 of 20 min trying to manage their temps.

I might try the new RE71RS's next time around and see if my experience is consistent with all of the accolades these tires are currently getting. Goodyear Supercar 3R were also a consideration, but I'm hearing conflicting things about consistency and longevity...

Seems like you and I think similarly. I haven't taken the plunge for largely the same reason. I'll say my bit about the categories/prioritization though and this could be visualized as a Venn diagram.

Performance

• Maximum grip offered
• Heat tolerance over a stint

Experience

• Feedback
• Peakiness
• Handling simultaneous inputs

Value

• Days before to cord (or get near cords)
• Ability to handle variable conditions
• Total cost

So with that, I'd put a tire like the SC3 R high in performance and experience but low in value—they didn't last for me, they don't handle variable conditions well (means a second set of wheels/tires for wet days) and their total cost is relatively high.

RE-71RS fulfills a lot more of the value category because they are cheaper, last longer, and at reasonable tread depth levels, work quite well in mixed conditions. They only give up a little bit in maximum grip and have worse heat tolerance (this improves as they wear). I'd give the Bridgestones a try—I don't think you'll be disappointed and it would be great to get your comparison to the NT01s.

[medphysdave]

Originally Posted by M1500Z

Seems like you and I think similarly. I haven't taken the plunge for largely the same reason. I'll say my bit about the categories/prioritization though and this could be visualized as a Venn diagram.

Performance

• Maximum grip offered
• Heat tolerance over a stint

Experience

• Feedback
• Peakiness
• Handling simultaneous inputs

Value

• Days before to cord (or get near cords)
• Ability to handle variable conditions
• Total cost

So with that, I'd put a tire like the SC3 R high in performance and experience but low in value—they didn't last for me, they don't handle variable conditions well (means a second set of wheels/tires for wet days) and their total cost is relatively high.

RE-71RS fulfills a lot more of the value category because they are cheaper, last longer, and at reasonable tread depth levels, work quite well in mixed conditions. They only give up a little bit in maximum grip and have worse heat tolerance (this improves as they wear). I'd give the Bridgestones a try—I don't think you'll be disappointed and it would be great to get your comparison to the NT01s.

Being able to hand wet weather is huge for me. A few posts on the forums about being caught in rain on NT01s is not fun. I bought a second set of wheels, but I'm not ready to haul them to the track yet. I mainly did it to keep the wear of my street tires as they get more dicey in wet as the tread drops. Plan is to move to a more cold/wet friendly street tire. Then have the second set of wheels with a more aggressive tire for to/on/from track days (re71rs).

[dvas]

Originally Posted by M1500Z

RE-71RS fulfills a lot more of the value category because they are cheaper, last longer, and at reasonable tread depth levels, work quite well in mixed conditions. They only give up a little bit in maximum grip and have worse heat tolerance (this improves as they wear). I'd give the Bridgestones a try—I don't think you'll be disappointed and it would be great to get your comparison to the NT01s.

This will have to wait until next year. I've got a new set of NT01s on (1 day) and expect them to last for the remainder of the season for me, ~7 days or so. But if the support for RE71RS's and / or SC3R's continue, I'll have to give one of them a shot in the spring.

Originally Posted by medphysdave

Being able to hand wet weather is huge for me. A few posts on the forums about being caught in rain on NT01s is not fun. I bought a second set of wheels, but I'm not ready to haul them to the track yet. I mainly did it to keep the wear of my street tires as they get more dicey in wet as the tread drops. Plan is to move to a more cold/wet friendly street tire. Then have the second set of wheels with a more aggressive tire for to/on/from track days (re71rs).

I used to drive to the track on Pilot Power Sports, carrying my set of NT01s on the rear seats and swapping the tires/wheels in the paddock in the am. I did this to 1. avoid heat cycling or otherwise prematurely wearing out my NT01s and 2. to have a fallback option if it rains.

But my perspective has changed since 2018, or so, and I now just arrive and drive on the NT01s regardless of their condition. Swapping tires multiple times a day, monitoring the car after sessions and then also instructing is tiresome. But more importantly, all this work didn't seem to improve my/the cars performance or enjoyment.

For 1, in my experience, the NT01s don't heat cycle out and also don't show any material wear from normal driving to/from the track - even with -3.5 camber.

And, more importantly, 2, I no longer really care about wet weather performance. In damp conditions, the NT01s are still great, even when they are worn down as slicks. I remember more than one occasion in the cold and damp, early spring and late fall conditions when I contemplated switching over from the PPS to NT01s. I was advised not to, but nervously tried it anyways and weas pleasantly surprised by their performance. In wet / standing water conditions, new NT01s are acceptable and probably comparable to other 200 TW UHP tires. The only time NT01s are really handicapped are when they have considerable wear (3+ days on them out of a ~ 7 day lifespan) in standing water conditions. They will hydroplane considerably more than other treaded tires. But all tires in these conditions will slide / hydroplane (I drive with all nannies off in all conditions) so who really cares. The on track driving experience will be similar in these conditions with almost any tire, except that you will have to slow down a few notches with the NT01s. Driving home in pouring rain / standing water conditions although doable, however, is not enjoyable.

[medphysdave]

Originally Posted by dvas

This will have to wait until next year. I've got a new set of NT01s on (1 day) and expect them to last for the remainder of the season for me, ~7 days or so. But if the support for RE71RS's and / or SC3R's continue, I'll have to give one of them a shot in the spring.




I used to drive to the track on Pilot Power Sports, carrying my set of NT01s on the rear seats and swapping the tires/wheels in the paddock in the am. I did this to 1. avoid heat cycling or otherwise prematurely wearing out my NT01s and 2. to have a fallback option if it rains.

But my perspective has changed since 2018, or so, and I now just arrive and drive on the NT01s regardless of their condition. Swapping tires multiple times a day, monitoring the car after sessions and then also instructing is tiresome. But more importantly, all this work didn't seem to improve my/the cars performance or enjoyment.

For 1, in my experience, the NT01s don't heat cycle out and also don't show any material wear from normal driving to/from the track - even with -3.5 camber.

And, more importantly, 2, I no longer really care about wet weather performance. In damp conditions, the NT01s are still great, even when they are worn down as slicks. I remember more than one occasion in the cold and damp, early spring and late fall conditions when I contemplated switching over from the PPS to NT01s. I was advised not to, but nervously tried it anyways and weas pleasantly surprised by their performance. In wet / standing water conditions, new NT01s are acceptable and probably comparable to other 200 TW UHP tires. The only time NT01s are really handicapped are when they have considerable wear (3+ days on them out of a ~ 7 day lifespan) in standing water conditions. They will hydroplane considerably more than other treaded tires. But all tires in these conditions will slide / hydroplane (I drive with all nannies off in all conditions) so who really cares. The on track driving experience will be similar in these conditions with almost any tire, except that you will have to slow down a few notches with the NT01s. Driving home in pouring rain / standing water conditions although doable, however, is not enjoyable.

That's actually not bad. I'd describe the cup2 connects the same in wet.

[CoffeeLife]

I keep track of about 70% of annual costs and just tuck the rest of the invoices away….. I need to get better but Its frustrating with how many unplanned costs appear.

This season im about $25,000 running cost + $20,000 for an out of pocket race accident.

I go through 2-3 sets of tires per month with every race weekend being two sets.

Engine Oil changed after every race, dif and brake fluids every two races. Trans fluid changed at the end and start of every season.

Then we have transport, hotel, food and race fees that also add up.

Ive gone through 7? Sets of pads this season and on my second rotors.

Oh and shipping parts from the US/UK/Germany hurt a lot too.

Ah….. sponsors one day….one day….please lol

[E90convert]

Originally Posted by ThreeStripes

Tracking consumables ain’t my bag but I love tracking how little bs I deal with to get my jollies.

15mins from bed to paddock. No trailer, no box of bs, no car load of wheels/tires. 60 minutes to bolt on track wheels and swap pads and I’m bullying GT3s on a world class track in the same car that takes me to the office.

This is what I do. Extra 10 minutes to get the car seats out of the back though haha.

[jwr9152]

My experience has been the RE71RS have a very fast lap in them but get greasy fairly easy. The RT660 seemed to be more consistent over a stint. I've set some of my fastest laps at the end of a happy hour at a few different tracks on the RT660. I will say the wet grip of the RE71RS is very very good. Haven't had them long enough to comment on longevity. I think for Time Trials/Time Attack the RE71RS is going to be very good, jury is still out on if it can be a better track day tire than the RT660. So far they don't seem as consistent, but maybe they will last longer.

[M2guru]

Had a track weekend last weekend and put more laps/miles on the RE71RS tires and I still don't see cords. I'll probably get rid of them before I go on the track next season and see cords, but it lowered the cost per mile from $3.27 to $2.30 - beating the RS4 from Hankook ($2.80). YMMV

[DrChase]

I like the RE71RS, but not for long sessions in moderate to high ambient temps, especially on cars above 3,200 pounds. RS4 was great for throttle steering and wear characteristics in longer sessions, even in 90+ degree temps. I love my RT660, and have returned to them on multiple platforms since my initial experience with an ND2 endurance build a couple years ago. RT660s are pretty good about wear and consistency even in high heat conditions. However, they almost always splice at the tread after a heat cycle or two. Supercar 3R lateral grip is awesome for a DOT streetable tire, but it’s not as durable in high heat and long sessions as I’d prefer. I like to run 10+ laps per session without cooldown laps, or at least without more than a two percent reduction in pace for “cooldown” purposes.

All this said, my latest experiment is with Nankang CR-S V2 on my F80 CS. I liked them a lot in 95+ degree ambient temps. Pretty fast but with confidence (first day out to shake down F80CS completely stock but with DSUNO front pads and ran 2:00:** in almost 100 degree weather), consistent in high temps and long (25+ minute) sessions (deltas were within half a second for 6+ consecutive laps), quick to come up to temp, progressive breakaway (albeit not much sound), and decent feedback. Pretty stiff sidewalls, no tread splicing, no chunking, no unexpected surface degradation or delamination. I’ll be putting more days on these before reaching a verdict, but I’m already considering swapping my regular M2C setup (square 275 RT660) for square CR-S once my RT660s are toast.

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by DrChase

I like the RE71RS, but not for long sessions in moderate to high ambient temps, especially on cars above 3,200 pounds. RS4 was great for throttle steering and wear characteristics in longer sessions, even in 90+ degree temps. I love my RT660, and have returned to them on multiple platforms since my initial experience with an ND2 endurance build a couple years ago. RT660s are pretty good about wear and consistency even in high heat conditions. However, they almost always splice at the tread after a heat cycle or two. Supercar 3R lateral grip is awesome for a DOT streetable tire, but it’s not as durable in high heat and long sessions as I’d prefer. I like to run 10+ laps per session without cooldown laps, or at least without more than a two percent reduction in pace for “cooldown” purposes.

All this said, my latest experiment is with Nankang CR-S V2 on my F80 CS. I liked them a lot in 95+ degree ambient temps. Pretty fast but with confidence (first day out to shake down F80CS completely stock but with DSUNO front pads and ran 2:00:** in almost 100 degree weather), consistent in high temps and long (25+ minute) sessions (deltas were within half a second for 6+ consecutive laps), quick to come up to temp, progressive breakaway (albeit not much sound), and decent feedback. Pretty stiff sidewalls, no tread splicing, no chunking, no unexpected surface degradation or delamination. I’ll be putting more days on these before reaching a verdict, but I’m already considering swapping my regular M2C setup (square 275 RT660) for square CR-S once my RT660s are toast.

Have been waiting for feedback on the CRS v2 from some guys in 3000+ lb cars. Would you say its grip is similar or slightly less than the 71RS, but more consistent? Guessing longevity will be more too.

[DrChase]

Originally Posted by ZM2

Have been waiting for feedback on the CRS v2 from some guys in 3000+ lb cars. Would you say its grip is similar or slightly less than the 71RS, but more consistent? Guessing longevity will be more too.

Grip is on par with, or at least within a couple tenths (on a 2:00 lap) of, RE71RS. Based on one event so far with lots of laps and high temps, CR-S handles heat cycles better than RE71RS. Tread depth is shallower than RE71RS, but the CR-S are still more rain friendly than 100TW options. CR-S feels very light on its feet. The tire seems to have a slight floatiness to it. Hard to describe, but it’s like a light-footed dancing feeling. Driving with slight slip, as we should to maximize pace and make use of the well-tuned e-diff in our M cars, you feel a skating sensation. This took about half a day’s lapping to get my head around and to adjust my butt gyro. Sure enough though, the minimum average corner speeds, braking distances and pedal pressure, and the lat/long g traces don’t lie. This tire performs, and does so very well. It just feels a bit unique. Some of my cleanest and fastest laps of the day were toward the end of a long session, which says a lot about their consistency.

[ggggbmw]

Originally Posted by M2guru

Thanks for encouraging me to check my math. Here are the revised numbers:
RS4 = $2.80
RE71RS = $3.27
Supercar 3R = $3.58

Wow. Those are kind of kill-joy numbers M2guru .

I do keep a rough total of my tracking expenses. But I prefer to think of them in 'seasons'. For some reason the big season numbers don't seem as bad as breaking it down to per-mile costs. Probably because the brain has a harder time keeping track of big numbers vs. small numbers.

It is useful to keep in mind though as I debate what tires to get in the spring. My usual RS4, or something more performant, like the RE71RS or RT660.