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      02-16-2020, 11:32 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjr24 View Post
Be serious......not one of you would take the M2 if price and size were of no regard.
Better front legroom in the 2 series than the 8 series. Hell my 4 series convertible has more front legroom than my 6 series.
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      02-16-2020, 01:59 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by CWads69 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by babaikram View Post
This hyperbole about M2 is tiring. I wonder what owners of Toyota Supra that has been shown in various testings to be faster at tracks and better handling than the M2 do?
Hmmm, maybe explain "all the hyperbole" you're referring to... from most of the reviews of the M2 and M2C that I've read, there's a pretty strong consensus that it's a great addition to the M family of cars, a fun car to drive, and good value for the money. Opinions... are opinions, some are spot on, some whine, some are exaggerations, everybody has an opinion, and absolutely everyone is entitled to theirs... just curious what's bugging you about the M2? Safe to assume you don't own one? In the spirit of transparency, I had an '18, and now own a '20 M2C. And couldn't be happier with my '20 - it's a daily driver except when it snows, and NEVER fails to put a smile on my face....
Here's my opinion, in regards to you not driving it in the snow.

My opinion is you have no idea what a smile is until you actually put snow tires on it and have real fun.
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      02-17-2020, 06:32 AM   #91
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Comparing apple to oranges. The guy got a $1600 and is halfway to getting banned from driving (6 out of a maximum of 12 points on his license).

If you had any knowledge or contact with the former 6 Series, you would know what the new 8 series is all about. Nothing less than a GT car. In that price range, if I would want something "sporty", I would get a 911. To be honest, over here in Europe, I have no idea who would buy one new (not leasing it as a company car) over a 911 or at all.

Regarding performance, zeperfs.com has the numbers: http://www.zeperfs.com/en/duel7280-7982.htm

M8 is ~5s faster on two tracks, has done a 7:21 at Nürburgring (compared to 7:50 for the M2 Competition).

Please stop referring to M2 as light or agile. It weighs more than my M3 CS and has less mechanical grip than the Z4/Supra. I agree, it is a very nice starting point for a project/track car.
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      02-17-2020, 09:14 AM   #92
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Well, the M2C is certainly light compared to the M8C. The M2C is 229 pounds lighter than a Mustang GT PP2. The weight difference between my car and yours could be made up by nothing more than the weight of the human driving it (no idea what your weight is, of course). Your car with my 4th largest friend in it vs. my car with me in it is about a wash. Your M3 CS is 500+ pounds heavier than a 1995 Integra GS-R, so if that's all that matters, I'm sure we can find a used one for you for cheap.

Yes, Americans can be hefty and I'm not...just to head off that comment.

Cars are heavy nowadays. It's bizarre that folk want to pick on one heavy car and ignore everything else. Civics are absolutely monstrous compared to what they were in '95. If we all want to go after a car for being heavy, let's attack all the heavy cars instead of trying to use weight to nail just one of them.
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      02-17-2020, 06:15 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bri1042 View Post
Cars are heavy nowadays. It's bizarre that folk want to pick on one heavy car and ignore everything else. Civics are absolutely monstrous compared to what they were in '95. If we all want to go after a car for being heavy, let's attack all the heavy cars instead of trying to use weight to nail just one of them.
Lol. This reminds me of when I bought my 350Z in 2006. When that car came out, it got generally good reviews but when people wanted to hate on it, they'd talk about how heavy it was at 3300 lbs or so. That was THE go to detraction for that car for about 5 years. Then....that talk just kinda tailed off as 3300 lbs went from being "kinda heavy" to "hmm around average."

Don't get me wrong, people still hated on that car all the time (it's old, it's ugly, it's not that fast etc) but people...just kinda stopped talking about its weight. Now 3300lbs is in the realm of "pretty good."

I strongly suspect that five years from now, when people lob insults at the F87 M2C, they won't be mentioning it's weight as 3600 lbs will inevitably go from "a little heavy" to "below average"
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      02-17-2020, 07:23 PM   #94
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So much misinfo from 'purists' out there. M8 is big but it's not a GT car. If M8 is a GT car than the M2 is an economy car. Any thing with M is set up for the track period. Nobody wants a stiff harsh ride of a competition pack over bumpy roads.

I've driven both, but I just want to remind everyone:

M2 is one generation behind the M8
M2 is an afterthought and has too much steel
M2 weighs as much as an M4 but is still slower
M2 has a cheap interior

M2 of the next generation will not have a DCT
M2 will hopefully be set up to shed weight like an M4 and M8 can Vs the regular
M2 will get a power bump


Comparing the current M2 to the current M8 is not fair. The next M2 will gain In some areas and lose in others.
For me? It's the M8 no questions asked. Proper sports car with power and race wins.

M2 was an afterthought; I'll wait for the next gen and hopefully BmW will take it seriously
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      02-17-2020, 11:01 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepingBMW View Post
So much misinfo from 'purists' out there. M8 is big but it's not a GT car. If M8 is a GT car than the M2 is an economy car. Any thing with M is set up for the track period. Nobody wants a stiff harsh ride of a competition pack over bumpy roads.

I've driven both, but I just want to remind everyone:

M2 is one generation behind the M8
M2 is an afterthought and has too much steel
M2 weighs as much as an M4 but is still slower
M2 has a cheap interior

M2 of the next generation will not have a DCT
M2 will hopefully be set up to shed weight like an M4 and M8 can Vs the regular
M2 will get a power bump


Comparing the current M2 to the current M8 is not fair. The next M2 will gain In some areas and lose in others.
For me? It's the M8 no questions asked. Proper sports car with power and race wins.

M2 was an afterthought; I'll wait for the next gen and hopefully BmW will take it seriously
Funnily enough, I do kind of consider the M2 an economy car. It's just a very fast economy car that is far nicer than most. The 2-series on a whole is kind of 'premium economy' in my eyes. But yeah, it's still based on an economy platform and I like it that way. Why? Because small cars with small wheelbases are more fun to drive than big cars. All of the best driving cars in the world are either based on standalone sports car chassis or pumped up economy car chassis (my opinion.)

So yeah. I'd consider the M8 a GT. It weighs 4300Lbs, it has an absurdly nice interior and is long, wide and generally imposing looking. If it were a sports car, it wouldn't weigh 700 lbs more than a car that "weighs as much as an M4 but is still slower." If it were a sports car, it would be tiny on the outside, not just the inside.

Then again, what constitutes "sports car" "GT car" "Sports coupe" etc... is highly subjective, so i'm not going to sit here and say you're wrong, just that I disagree with you.

One last thing i'd like to point out: being an afterthought by no means makes a car bad. Literally every homologation special is an afterthought. People designed the race car and then were forced to build production versions of that car, that's conceptually the very definition of an afterthought. "Afterthoughts" are often places where designers can hide from the bean counters who normally have a huge say in what goes into a vehicle. The Competition version of the M2 was even like an afterthought of an afterthought "we can't sell it with the N55 anymore so....I dunno...stick the M4 engine in there I guess."

Anyway. They're both good cars, but it's fundamentally a ludicrous comparison. The M8 is twice as expensive. If you have enough money where price is not a factor, you're not considering either of these cars.

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      02-17-2020, 11:14 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moflow View Post
Anyway. They're both good cars, but it's fundamentally a ludicrous comparison. The M8 is twice as expensive. If you have enough money where price is not a factor, you're not considering either of these cars.
Agree that they are both likely great cars for the purposes they are built to serve (I have driven an M5C briefly but not an M8C). And I like your commentary. The only difference I have is that I believe some people who can afford an M8 actually want a M2C. Like me. My previous F80 M3 was too big, as my E39 M5 is that size but does it better. I also want a fairly Q-ship DD because of my personality and job (I only drive my Z4M coupe on weekends). Parenthetically, since I just used parentheses (!), the E39 M5 is one of the greatest Q-ships of all time.

So yes, I love my M2C as a DD. And perhaps someone with an M8C or M5C thinks I can't afford one. I really don't care. And, BTW, I must have a manual transmission. Such a luxury these days...
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      02-18-2020, 12:00 AM   #97
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@KevinM Ditto on your comments. I can spend the money on M8C, M5C, M4xx but their length is way to long. M2C is a better size and packs a lot of fun.
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      02-18-2020, 02:55 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepingBMW View Post
So much misinfo from 'purists' out there. .
And:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepingBMW View Post
Proper sports car


I had to laugh, sorry.


Have a nice day.

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      02-18-2020, 04:11 AM   #99
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Just recently sold an M5C after 1 year of ownership but keep the M2C + 991.2 GT3.

For me the M8 has no fun at all. Heavy GT with nice interrior and that is it.
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      02-18-2020, 04:41 AM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin_NL View Post
And:





I had to laugh, sorry.


Have a nice day.

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Some people really have no idea what a sports car is, do they? More money than brains, I guess.
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      02-18-2020, 06:20 AM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sphygmomanometer View Post
Although this thread has gone quite off topic I'd still like to weigh in though:
I realise people are different and those people also drive cars for different reasons but let's be honest here:
  • 0-100 km/h (or any other 0-something) times do not really matter because how often do you do drag or quarter-mile racing? If they did matter, you would get something else or tune your car anyway.
  • Top speed does not really matter (anymore). Cars are generally quite fast already and where can you go that fast anyway? Before somebody mentions Germany: I live close to the German border and I get to drive fast every once in a while but even then nowhere close to maxing out the car - because of traffic.
  • Lap times do not matter because even if I'd go on a track I very likely could not replicate those lap times and I am going to be so bold and say that most of you guys couldn't either.
I think that leaves just bragging rights which is definitely a thing, maybe even the thing, I must admit.

What we can have daily is 'sheer driving pleasure'. This should come natural to us BMW drivers. And that's where the M2 is a stronger proposition and probably the strongest proposition in BMW (M)'s current lineup. It's when it all comes together: Chassis, engine, engine sound, maybe some driver involvement in the shape of a manual gearbox, the seats, the steering. It's also where you cannot hide weight.

That's what made me look into the current M2: From among the current BMW models it probably is what comes closest to the E46 M3, the ultimate in all the points mentioned above. I just wish it had a n/a engine (and no PPF).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sphygmomanometer View Post
That's what made me look into the current M2: From among the current BMW models it probably is what comes closest to the E46 M3, the ultimate in all the points mentioned above. I just wish it had a n/a engine (and no PPF).
See: 06:00 - 06:42
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      02-18-2020, 08:08 AM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sphygmomanometer View Post
Although this thread has gone quite off topic I'd still like to weigh in though:
I realise people are different and those people also drive cars for different reasons but let's be honest here:
  • 0-100 km/h (or any other 0-something) times do not really matter because how often do you do drag or quarter-mile racing? If they did matter, you would get something else or tune your car anyway.
  • Top speed does not really matter (anymore). Cars are generally quite fast already and where can you go that fast anyway? Before somebody mentions Germany: I live close to the German border and I get to drive fast every once in a while but even then nowhere close to maxing out the car - because of traffic.
  • Lap times do not matter because even if I'd go on a track I very likely could not replicate those lap times and I am going to be so bold and say that most of you guys couldn't either.
I think that leaves just bragging rights which is definitely a thing, maybe even the thing, I must admit.

What we can have daily is 'sheer driving pleasure'. This should come natural to us BMW drivers. And that's where the M2 is a stronger proposition and probably the strongest proposition in BMW (M)'s current lineup. It's when it all comes together: Chassis, engine, engine sound, maybe some driver involvement in the shape of a manual gearbox, the seats, the steering. It's also where you cannot hide weight.

That's what made me look into the current M2: From among the current BMW models it probably is what comes closest to the E46 M3, the ultimate in all the points mentioned above. I just wish it had a n/a engine (and no PPF).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sphygmomanometer View Post
That's what made me look into the current M2: From among the current BMW models it probably is what comes closest to the E46 M3, the ultimate in all the points mentioned above. I just wish it had a n/a engine (and no PPF).
See: 06:00 - 06:42
[VIDEO]
Yep, I've been saying it for a while now, but 2 is the new 3.
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      02-18-2020, 08:26 AM   #103
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I was parked next to an E46 Sedan at Costco yesterday. It's striking how much my car just looks like an updated coupe-version of that car vs. the G20 330 that was in the next row. Again, same with the current Civic. Put it next to an Accord from the late 90's and you'd get the same effect.
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      02-18-2020, 08:44 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bri1042 View Post
I was parked next to an E46 Sedan at Costco yesterday. It's striking how much my car just looks like an updated coupe-version of that car vs. the G20 330 that was in the next row. Again, same with the current Civic. Put it next to an Accord from the late 90's and you'd get the same effect.
I know exactly what you mean, there was a German magazine that pictured an M2C and E46 CSL together and they share a lot more in design than what I thought, not to mention size wise they're so close

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      02-18-2020, 11:05 AM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshuastein55 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by bri1042 View Post
I was parked next to an E46 Sedan at Costco yesterday. It's striking how much my car just looks like an updated coupe-version of that car vs. the G20 330 that was in the next row. Again, same with the current Civic. Put it next to an Accord from the late 90's and you'd get the same effect.
I know exactly what you mean, there was a German magazine that pictured an M2C and E46 CSL together and they share a lot more in design than what I thought, not to mention size wise they're so close
M2C/M2 CS versus E46 M3:
  • difference in length: 31mm or 0.2in
  • difference in wheelbase: 38mm or 1.5in
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
size matters: close to E46 M3 size = pretty proper size;
(...)
A matter of personal taste. I still got high esteem for the E46 M3 (I used to have an E46 M3 6MT and an E46 M3 SMGII). The E90/E92 M3 coupé, F80 M3 sedan and F82 M4 coupé ventured beyond the 4.5m limit (>177.17in), equally extending the wheel base, which is just a tad too tall for my liking. G80 M3 will be even taller. The F87 raises an 'E46 M3 reimagined and spiced up in the turbo era' impression.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
And so it appears that the length of M2C + M2 CS and 718 GT4 are virtually identical (difference of only 5mm/0.5cm or 0.2in), unlike the wheelbase (difference of 20.9cm or 8.22in).

Length and wheelbase:
  • 981 GT4 = 4438mm (174.72in) | wheelbase: 2474mm (97.40in)
  • 718 GT4 = 4456mm (175.43in) | wheelbase: 2484mm (97.80in)
  • M2 Competition = 4461mm (175.63in) | wheelbase: 2693mm (106.02in)
  • M2 CS = 4461mm (175.63in) | wheelbase: 2693mm (106.02in)
  • original M2 = 4468mm (175.91in) | wheelbase: 2693mm (106.02in)
  • E46 M3 = 4492mm (176.85in) | wheelbase: 2731mm (107.52in)
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      02-18-2020, 04:36 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin_NL View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepingBMW View Post
So much misinfo from 'purists' out there. .
And:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepingBMW View Post
Proper sports car


I had to laugh, sorry.


Have a nice day.

Cheers
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Yeah you got me, technically none of these CLAR platform cars are sports cars from the Z4 on up to the 8 series.

But I do mean In the vague sense of the term. The M8 does have a bunch of carbon fiber borrowed from the 7 series, massive brakes, adjustable brake bias, proper suspension set up for the Nurburgring Grand Prix Strecke, shares an engine with the 2x Daytona 24 hour winning version of the same car.

By comparison the 2 series was never designed to be 'M' ready. They thought the M235i would top the 2 series. Why? Because the 2 series is an economy line. In Germany it competes with a 2 door Yaris. It doesn't make much money. They thus filled the chassis with steel to reduce overhead and increase profitability. When the US of A guys were begging for it they eventually relented and did a suspension tune and gave you a marked up 2 series. The Competition saw retuned suspension and the S55 engine, detuned.

M2 is fun but it really really is a bad M car. It's not light weight. It's not powerful, it's not got a real race car. Next time they will do better since M2 is a success. Or maybe they won't see a need to do better since everyone praises that fat pig and it's cheap to make.
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      02-18-2020, 04:51 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moflow View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepingBMW View Post
So much misinfo from 'purists' out there. M8 is big but it's not a GT car. If M8 is a GT car than the M2 is an economy car. Any thing with M is set up for the track period. Nobody wants a stiff harsh ride of a competition pack over bumpy roads.

I've driven both, but I just want to remind everyone:

M2 is one generation behind the M8
M2 is an afterthought and has too much steel
M2 weighs as much as an M4 but is still slower
M2 has a cheap interior

M2 of the next generation will not have a DCT
M2 will hopefully be set up to shed weight like an M4 and M8 can Vs the regular
M2 will get a power bump


Comparing the current M2 to the current M8 is not fair. The next M2 will gain In some areas and lose in others.
For me? It's the M8 no questions asked. Proper sports car with power and race wins.

M2 was an afterthought; I'll wait for the next gen and hopefully BmW will take it seriously
Funnily enough, I do kind of consider the M2 an economy car. It's just a very fast economy car that is far nicer than most. The 2-series on a whole is kind of 'premium economy' in my eyes. But yeah, it's still based on an economy platform and I like it that way. Why? Because small cars with small wheelbases are more fun to drive than big cars. All of the best driving cars in the world are either based on standalone sports car chassis or pumped up economy car chassis (my opinion.)

So yeah. I'd consider the M8 a GT. It weighs 4300Lbs, it has an absurdly nice interior and is long, wide and generally imposing looking. If it were a sports car, it wouldn't weigh 700 lbs more than a car that "weighs as much as an M4 but is still slower." If it were a sports car, it would be tiny on the outside, not just the inside.

Then again, what constitutes "sports car" "GT car" "Sports coupe" etc... is highly subjective, so i'm not going to sit here and say you're wrong, just that I disagree with you.

One last thing i'd like to point out: being an afterthought by no means makes a car bad. Literally every homologation special is an afterthought. People designed the race car and then were forced to build production versions of that car, that's conceptually the very definition of an afterthought. "Afterthoughts" are often places where designers can hide from the bean counters who normally have a huge say in what goes into a vehicle. The Competition version of the M2 was even like an afterthought of an afterthought "we can't sell it with the N55 anymore so....I dunno...stick the M4 engine in there I guess."

Anyway. They're both good cars, but it's fundamentally a ludicrous comparison. The M8 is twice as expensive. If you have enough money where price is not a factor, you're not considering either of these cars.
Well you misinterpret me as disliking the M2. I like the M2 a lot. But I'm more defending the M8. Seems everyone here has a problem with its size but forgets that the M2 is very flawed for an M. but size comes with weight which is bad. but it also comes with stability and suspension advantages. That's why you see F1 growing so long. Much easier to go fast on the bumpy road circuits.

An Alpina to me is a GT. Or a 911 Turbo vs a GT3. Not even an M850 is set up for a proper comfortable daily drive.

The 8 series is amazing. The 2 series is jsit good. Perhaps the worst bmw in that sIze slot
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      02-18-2020, 07:42 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by SleepingBMW View Post
Well you misinterpret me as disliking the M2. I like the M2 a lot. But I'm more defending the M8. Seems everyone here has a problem with its size but forgets that the M2 is very flawed for an M. but size comes with weight which is bad. but it also comes with stability and suspension advantages. That's why you see F1 growing so long. Much easier to go fast on the bumpy road circuits.

An Alpina to me is a GT. Or a 911 Turbo vs a GT3. Not even an M850 is set up for a proper comfortable daily drive.

The 8 series is amazing. The 2 series is jsit good. Perhaps the worst bmw in that sIze slot
Your definitions are not really correct. I can't help you here, you don't seem to grasp the differences.

The M850i was certainly comfortable when I drove it. Sounds like you are just biased in favor of the 8 series, which is the very definition of a GT car, btw.
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      02-19-2020, 04:28 AM   #109
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If they were the same price I'd still take the M2C. Not Joe's though as he's stuffed it up with the springs, exhaust and assorted tackiness. But each to their own.

The fact that the M2C is 30% of the price is fascinating. It's just a different market. Luxury appliance buyer versus someone that gets joy from driving.
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      02-19-2020, 08:09 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by mjr24 View Post
You guys crack me up. M2 more fun to drive? It's a second slower in the 0-60. Be real.
I had an F90 M5 for a year and a half, dumped it for an M2C and have never been happier.

The M5 is a sick car, fast as hell....but the sound, the tranny and the weight all kinda killed it for me after a while. My 6MT M2C checks all the boxes (for me) at this point in my life (semi-retired, no commute).

It makes no sense to generalize, as everyone has different wants and needs. Just because the M5 costs twice as much, and is faster in a strait line doesn't make it a better all around car for everyone.

And yes, I know we are talking about the M8 vs M2 in this thread...but Joe brought up the M5 comparison, and the 30k delta is not that crazy once you go over 6 figures, IMO.
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