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      11-13-2019, 08:03 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
A set lockup is more race track friendly when the brake based assist is tuned out.
Any source for this? As far as I know the RWD M cars do not have brake based torque vectoring (unless you count TC and DSC but that is not really the same as it is there to help you maintain control not corner harder).

They have a diff that can lock from 0-100% that's it. This is already awesome as it helps you corner harder without the drawbacks of a fixed ratio diff,

M2C is super easy to drift stock BTW. Im a complete noob and this was me on the 1st time out on the drift track.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xaU...gSezGC3Qb/view
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      11-13-2019, 08:48 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Megator View Post
Any source for this? As far as I know the RWD M cars do not have brake based torque vectoring (unless you count TC and DSC but that is not really the same as it is there to help you maintain control not corner harder).

They have a diff that can lock from 0-100% that's it. This is already awesome as it helps you corner harder without the drawbacks of a fixed ratio diff,

M2C is super easy to drift stock BTW. Im a complete noob and this was me on the 1st time out on the drift track.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xaU...gSezGC3Qb/view
is this in aschheim germany?
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      11-13-2019, 09:10 AM   #47
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I just want that 120liter (32 gallon) gas tank for my M2C
That's about 200 lbs of fuel. A reason why the tanks are so small on these cars is because, I'm thinking, BMW is very aware on how heavy the M2 is on its own. We only add 75 lbs when filling up (assuming it's 12.5 gallon capacity).
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      11-13-2019, 09:42 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Megator View Post
Any source for this? As far as I know the RWD M cars do not have brake based torque vectoring (unless you count TC and DSC but that is not really the same as it is there to help you maintain control not corner harder).

They have a diff that can lock from 0-100% that's it. This is already awesome as it helps you corner harder without the drawbacks of a fixed ratio diff,

M2C is super easy to drift stock BTW. Im a complete noob and this was me on the 1st time out on the drift track.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xaU...gSezGC3Qb/view
Well that looks like a ton of fun. I need to find one of these in Cali.
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      11-13-2019, 10:10 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by vale007 View Post
is this in aschheim germany?
Nein bei den Nachbaren im Westen wenn es klappt, gehe ich im Dezember nach Weeze.
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      11-13-2019, 12:00 PM   #50
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I am curious how much shop support you require for that car. Starts at 95K EU.

Do you need air compressor for jacks, tire change, etc... shop to change the springs. Can you have it for track days. Instead of a series of racing. How much tools do you need to run it successfully, fuel filling.?

So interested in it. It makes sense.
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      11-13-2019, 08:04 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
A "Mechanical Drexler limited-slip differential with pre-load and separate cooling."

Interesting.. I wonder why it doesn't come with the electronic torque-vectoring setup that all the M car currently uses.

This unit is akin the M Performance LSD the regular series BMW offers as an aftersale option..
Probably becuase it eats up pads
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      11-20-2019, 12:18 PM   #52
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by MetalMK View Post
The non adaptive headlights look cute but doesn't fit with the angular grills imo.

Also why does it have less horsepower?
For the headlights, it's most likely a weight savings thing
I don't see why, the M240i Racing uses Adaptive LED Headlights without concern for weight reduction.
I believe they are concerned with weight reduction. If you look close enough you can see the headlights aren't for street use. I'm not sure what the exact difference is from the street car, but weight reduction and deletion of the dipping beam may be one.
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      12-08-2019, 03:56 PM   #53
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      12-10-2019, 09:17 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TeamPhenix View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conissah View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by MetalMK View Post
The non adaptive headlights look cute but doesn't fit with the angular grills imo.

Also why does it have less horsepower?
For the headlights, it's most likely a weight savings thing
I don't see why, the M240i Racing uses Adaptive LED Headlights without concern for weight reduction.
I believe they are concerned with weight reduction. If you look close enough you can see the headlights aren't for street use. I'm not sure what the exact difference is from the street car, but weight reduction and deletion of the dipping beam may be one.
Don't all M2 have faux inner headlights ?
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      12-10-2019, 09:43 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TeamPhenix View Post
I believe they are concerned with weight reduction. If you look close enough you can see the headlights aren't for street use. I'm not sure what the exact difference is from the street car, but weight reduction and deletion of the dipping beam may be one.
The M2 CS Racing in the video below your comment has the adaptive headlights. Not sure if they have full functionality, but they have the hexagonal angel rings.
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      12-10-2019, 10:01 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Megator View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
A set lockup is more race track friendly when the brake based assist is tuned out.
Any source for this? As far as I know the RWD M cars do not have brake based torque vectoring (unless you count TC and DSC but that is not really the same as it is there to help you maintain control not corner harder).

They have a diff that can lock from 0-100% that's it. This is already awesome as it helps you corner harder without the drawbacks of a fixed ratio diff,

M2C is super easy to drift stock BTW. Im a complete noob and this was me on the 1st time out on the drift track.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xaU...gSezGC3Qb/view
Sorry about the delayed response, I've just now notice you had tagged me..

Anyways, on the subject of LSDs; I've also notice that the Porsche GT3 uses a standard locking diff, instead of their renowned torque-vectoring unit they currently offer. I believe torque vectoring is superior to a LSD in both applications.

However, It's more complex, which means more expensive and (maybe) failure prone. Racing is expensive enough as it is, I think teams don't want to deal with torque vectoring differentials at this point in time.

Whom ever at M Motorsports that writes the CS-R technical specs has decided to include a "regular" LSD to keep things simple.

Racing series will do this all the time to keep the series competitive. I tried to find a source on this but couldn't. Maybe someone else can.

I believe a racecar with a LSD would go around a corner (even a slow one) faster than a road car with torque vectoring because of the better tires and lower weight of the race car.
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      12-10-2019, 12:11 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostriderf80 View Post
I am curious how much shop support you require for that car. Starts at 95K EU.

Do you need air compressor for jacks, tire change, etc... shop to change the springs. Can you have it for track days. Instead of a series of racing. How much tools do you need to run it successfully, fuel filling.?

So interested in it. It makes sense.
+1, see it the same. Cost of entry is relatively low. Wouldn't push its limits or wear components at track days, so running costs should be reasonable. (Slicks not included.) Doubt clutches and engine rebuild requirements (if applicable) are anything like a Cup car, Ferrari Challenge, etc. I'd have it over a Radical or similarly priced track special.

I'd guess dealers could address basic services, e.g., oil, brake fluids, anything you didn't want to DIY.

Anyone have practical info? Will BMW sell to DE guys?? If so, delivery protocol?
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      12-11-2019, 03:57 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
Sorry about the delayed response, I've just now notice you had tagged me..

Anyways, on the subject of LSDs; I've also notice that the Porsche GT3 uses a standard locking diff, instead of their renowned torque-vectoring unit they currently offer. I believe torque vectoring is superior to a LSD in both applications.

However, It's more complex, which means more expensive and (maybe) failure prone. Racing is expensive enough as it is, I think teams don't want to deal with torque vectoring differentials at this point in time.

Whom ever at M Motorsports that writes the CS-R technical specs has decided to include a "regular" LSD to keep things simple.

Racing series will do this all the time to keep the series competitive. I tried to find a source on this but couldn't. Maybe someone else can.

I believe a racecar with a LSD would go around a corner (even a slow one) faster than a road car with torque vectoring because of the better tires and lower weight of the race car.
You missunderstood me and still missunderstand how the M diff works. (even after I explained it to you a while back in another thread ).

The M diff IS NOT TORQUE VECTORING!!!! it is VARIABLE LOCKING. These are two different things. Torque vectoring is what a Focus RS rear diff does, it can individually control how much torque goes to each rear wheel.

The M diff is variable locking so it can decide how much and when to lock "freely" compared to a normal mechanical locking diff which can only do so when the speed differential between the wheels reaches whatever preset.

Complexity/cost/rules/performance could be a reason for not including it in the CS racing.

Coming back to your original point and my question.

Where did you read that the M2 has brake based torque vectoring?

I would be curious to know if the M2 has this as I have not seen it anywhere and was part of what made my Focus RS handle great but overheat the brakes way too quickly on track.
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      12-11-2019, 07:07 AM   #59
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Found a channel to inquire... Can be purchased by DE, SCCA, etc. guys. Contact sending me maintenance schedule and other practical info.

U.S. intro & pricing to occur at the 24 hrs of Daytona next month.

Eh.

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      12-11-2019, 07:15 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Megator View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
Sorry about the delayed response, I've just now notice you had tagged me..

Anyways, on the subject of LSDs; I've also notice that the Porsche GT3 uses a standard locking diff, instead of their renowned torque-vectoring unit they currently offer. I believe torque vectoring is superior to a LSD in both applications.

However, It's more complex, which means more expensive and (maybe) failure prone. Racing is expensive enough as it is, I think teams don't want to deal with torque vectoring differentials at this point in time.

Whom ever at M Motorsports that writes the CS-R technical specs has decided to include a "regular" LSD to keep things simple.

Racing series will do this all the time to keep the series competitive. I tried to find a source on this but couldn't. Maybe someone else can.

I believe a racecar with a LSD would go around a corner (even a slow one) faster than a road car with torque vectoring because of the better tires and lower weight of the race car.
You missunderstood me and still missunderstand how the M diff works. (even after I explained it to you a while back in another thread ).

The M diff IS NOT TORQUE VECTORING!!!! it is VARIABLE LOCKING. These are two different things. Torque vectoring is what a Focus RS rear diff does, it can individually control how much torque goes to each rear wheel.

The M diff is variable locking so it can decide how much and when to lock "freely" compared to a normal mechanical locking diff which can only do so when the speed differential between the wheels reaches whatever preset.

Complexity/cost/rules/performance could be a reason for not including it in the CS racing.

Coming back to your original point and my question.

Where did you read that the M2 has brake based torque vectoring?

I would be curious to know if the M2 has this as I have not seen it anywhere and was part of what made my Focus RS handle great but overheat the brakes way too quickly on track.
There is a bit of confusion here. We're both saying the same thing but I'm referring to as a "torque-vectoring" because of how it's described in BMW literature and it operates.

The main difference is that Active M diff only transfer torque from slower to faster. The M diff is a basically a typical LSD, say a clutch-type, where the clutches, and therefore amount of lockup, are electronically controlled instead of passively activated based on the difference in speed between the two wheels on an axle, like say on a AWD vehicle or an EV. That means that they can control when and how much to lock up but by different means.

It's basically the same principal of being able to disturbing torque in either direction, via the locking method. Perhaps I should of been a little clearer.

In addition, BMW also states that it also liberally uses the DSC system to distribute torque. Hence my suggestion that it uses the brakes also to bias the distribution.

I did not mean the M2 has only a brake-based torque-distribution like the standard vehicles but more of assistance from the brakes, based on when the computer determines its needed, in addition to the clutch locking diff.
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      12-11-2019, 09:10 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
There is a bit of confusion here. We're both saying the same thing but I'm referring to as a "torque-vectoring" because of how it's described in BMW literature and it operates.

The main difference is that Active M diff only transfer torque from slower to faster. The M diff is a basically a typical LSD, say a clutch-type, where the clutches, and therefore amount of lockup, are electronically controlled instead of passively activated based on the difference in speed between the two wheels on an axle, like say on a AWD vehicle or an EV. That means that they can control when and how much to lock up but by different means.

It's basically the same principal of being able to disturbing torque in either direction, via the locking method. Perhaps I should of been a little clearer.

In addition, BMW also states that it also liberally uses the DSC system to distribute torque. Hence my suggestion that it uses the brakes also to bias the distribution.

I did not mean the M2 has only a brake-based torque-distribution like the standard vehicles but more of assistance from the brakes, based on when the computer determines its needed, in addition to the clutch locking diff.
So no basis for this happening on the RWD M models, got it.

Your confusing the 4wd/AWD M models with the RWD M models

And your wrong vis a vis the diff.

From the C&D article "Proper go-fast torque vectoring requires at least one overdrive gear in the differential (though often there are two) capable of spinning the wheels faster than if they were driven through a conventional diff." --> the M Diff does not have this hence not torque vectoring

https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...-test-feature/


and from BMW themselves who say variable LOCK not TORQUE distribution.

"The M Differential distributes the drive torque evenly to both rear wheels and compensates for the rotational speed difference."

https://www.bmw-m.com/en/topics/maga...ferential.html
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      12-11-2019, 09:22 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by FormulaMMM View Post
Found a channel to inquire... Can be purchased by DE, SCCA, etc. guys. Contact sending me maintenance schedule and other practical info.

U.S. intro & pricing to occur at the 24 hrs of Daytona next month.

Eh.

That's interesting news on the intro/pricing - it would be great to learn about it sooner but hopefully that gives a date to circle on the calendar.

BMW, if you're listening, please make the price $74,999.
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      12-11-2019, 09:28 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
That's interesting news on the intro/pricing - it would be great to learn about it sooner but hopefully that gives a date to circle on the calendar.

BMW, if you're listening, please make the price $74,999.
That's a good one... a BMW factory race car for the masses.
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      12-11-2019, 10:11 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Megator View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
There is a bit of confusion here. We're both saying the same thing but I'm referring to as a "torque-vectoring" because of how it's described in BMW literature and it operates.

The main difference is that Active M diff only transfer torque from slower to faster. The M diff is a basically a typical LSD, say a clutch-type, where the clutches, and therefore amount of lockup, are electronically controlled instead of passively activated based on the difference in speed between the two wheels on an axle, like say on a AWD vehicle or an EV. That means that they can control when and how much to lock up but by different means.

It's basically the same principal of being able to disturbing torque in either direction, via the locking method. Perhaps I should of been a little clearer.

In addition, BMW also states that it also liberally uses the DSC system to distribute torque. Hence my suggestion that it uses the brakes also to bias the distribution.

I did not mean the M2 has only a brake-based torque-distribution like the standard vehicles but more of assistance from the brakes, based on when the computer determines its needed, in addition to the clutch locking diff.
So no basis for this happening on the RWD M models, got it.

Your confusing the 4wd/AWD M models with the RWD M models

And your wrong vis a vis the diff.

From the C&D article "Proper go-fast torque vectoring requires at least one overdrive gear in the differential (though often there are two) capable of spinning the wheels faster than if they were driven through a conventional diff." --> the M Diff does not have this hence not torque vectoring

https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...-test-feature/


and from BMW themselves who say variable LOCK not TORQUE distribution.

"The M Differential distributes the drive torque evenly to both rear wheels and compensates for the rotational speed difference."

https://www.bmw-m.com/en/topics/maga...ferential.html
Well, thanks for clarifying, I get the gist of what M diff does, as in being able to electronically distribute power evenly, as you stated, by locking the diff accordingly.

As oppose to a standard, non-electronic locking diff where percentage of maximum lockup is already predetermined.
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      12-11-2019, 10:35 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by FormulaMMM View Post
That's a good one... a BMW factory race car for the masses.
We can hope!

In any event, it would be nice to get confirmation on pricing so people can decide if they're in or out...my F80 lease is up at the end of March, so I really need to know.
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      12-11-2019, 10:50 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by FormulaMMM View Post
That's a good one... a BMW factory race car for the masses.
We can hope!

In any event, it would be nice to get confirmation on pricing so people can decide if they're in or out...my F80 lease is up at the end of March, so I really need to know.
You are aware it's not "street-legal" right?
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