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      03-12-2019, 04:29 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Anthony1s View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by detroitm2 View Post
It must be a sad life to worry about your cars resale value all the time. Seriously, go out and drive. You bought the car for a reason, hopefully that's to have fun and enjoy the "spirit of the road"

Who cares what the next thing is.
It was a joke...
Sorry, that wasn't a direct response at you in particular. It was more of a general statement.
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      03-12-2019, 04:54 PM   #46
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There is a well documented history of this in aviation as well, one being the Italian vs. US assembled Bell 206. There were significant differences in reliability and unplanned maintenance over time.

Same could be said about Fender guitars and where they are assembled.

With a $60,000 car, I think it's worth considering.
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      03-12-2019, 05:22 PM   #47
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By then, there should be solid data on defect rates and reliability from the 3ers built there. But, no matter what, a new design on a new production line is going to have some quality issues up front.
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      03-12-2019, 06:58 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post

It's a automobile we're talking about here, a bunch of the same parts slap together and onto a metal frame.

I believe it's asinine to assume that the vehicle will defer because it's assembled in one place over the other.
This is where we disagree, and this is why you accused me of xenophobia.

You're assuming:

The robots are all the same + The parts are all the same + The people all receive the same training = Cars will be exactly the same and anyone who thinks otherwise must be a xenophobe.

The problem is that the parts are not the same. The driveline will be the same of course, as the engine and transmission will likely be shipped in from Germany or Austria or wherever those are produced. But for everything else, an entirely new supplier network will be established and cultivated from the region surrounding the new plant.

Thousands of ancillary parts, from brackets to hoses to harnesses to switches will all be sourced from new companies. Items that used to come from long-standing partners in Croatia or Hungary or wherever will now be sourced from new providers in Ecuador or Venezuela or wherever. They will be specified to be exactly the same, of course, and in a perfect world a batch of 10,000 side-view-mirror motor switches would have the same 6-sigma quality whether they came from Ecuador or Hungary. But it's not a perfect world, and as governments and socioeconomic systems and labor laws and worker attitudes are different from country to country it's very difficult to eliminate variation, whether it's variation in worker dedication or variation in the failure rate of a window switch. It's entirely possible that an M2 made in Mexico ends up BETTER than one made in Germany, but where you believe it's asinine to think they would be different other people believe that differences are guaranteed and it's only a question of whether the differences are negligible - i.e. a difference in the color of a bracket in the trunk that you'll never even notice - vs. differences that are critical to the reliability of the car - i.e. a difference in the chemical composition of hoses that fail prematurely at low temperature.
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      03-12-2019, 08:02 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afwares View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post

It's a automobile we're talking about here, a bunch of the same parts slap together and onto a metal frame.

I believe it's asinine to assume that the vehicle will defer because it's assembled in one place over the other.
This is where we disagree, and this is why you accused me of xenophobia.

You're assuming:

The robots are all the same + The parts are all the same + The people all receive the same training = Cars will be exactly the same and anyone who thinks otherwise must be a xenophobe.

The problem is that the parts are not the same. The driveline will be the same of course, as the engine and transmission will likely be shipped in from Germany or Austria or wherever those are produced. But for everything else, an entirely new supplier network will be established and cultivated from the region surrounding the new plant.

Thousands of ancillary parts, from brackets to hoses to harnesses to switches will all be sourced from new companies. Items that used to come from long-standing partners in Croatia or Hungary or wherever will now be sourced from new providers in Ecuador or Venezuela or wherever. They will be specified to be exactly the same, of course, and in a perfect world a batch of 10,000 side-view-mirror motor switches would have the same 6-sigma quality whether they came from Ecuador or Hungary. But it's not a perfect world, and as governments and socioeconomic systems and labor laws and worker attitudes are different from country to country it's very difficult to eliminate variation, whether it's variation in worker dedication or variation in the failure rate of a window switch. It's entirely possible that an M2 made in Mexico ends up BETTER than one made in Germany, but where you believe it's asinine to think they would be different other people believe that differences are guaranteed and it's only a question of whether the differences are negligible - i.e. a difference in the color of a bracket in the trunk that you'll never even notice - vs. differences that are critical to the reliability of the car - i.e. a difference in the chemical composition of hoses that fail prematurely at low temperature.
First of all, I didn't accuse you of anything; I don't know you well enough to make that judgment.

However, the stuff you were spewing about AOC, 'America losing to ____,' our president is God's gift to mankind and other slew of stuff I don't care about, pretty much made it obvious where your head was at.. If the shoe fits..

To digress from that, that's a very interesting argument on how parts vary from one region to the other. I would say that nowadays that isn't clean cut as you would assume.

American cars use to be regarded as garbage and be the joke of the global market but within the last few years, the quality and dependability have increased substantially.

Same with products from the Asian markets; quality of parts and even labor have exponentially improved where "Made in China" no longer have same negative connotation that it once did. Did you look at the back of your beloved iPhone lately to see where it was assembled..

I trust BMW's quality control and their name that they'll make the proper decisions to insure their vehicles don't deteriorate, regardless of where it is assembled. The same way when I purchase something simple as batteries and chose a brand like Duracell or Energizer; I know it's a quality product regardless of where or who they chose to produce it because I put my trust in that manufacture.

Here's a Hollywood example trust in a brand name:

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      03-12-2019, 08:16 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afwares View Post
This is where we disagree, and this is why you accused me of xenophobia.

You're assuming:

The robots are all the same + The parts are all the same + The people all receive the same training = Cars will be exactly the same and anyone who thinks otherwise must be a xenophobe.

The problem is that the parts are not the same. The driveline will be the same of course, as the engine and transmission will likely be shipped in from Germany or Austria or wherever those are produced. But for everything else, an entirely new supplier network will be established and cultivated from the region surrounding the new plant.

Thousands of ancillary parts, from brackets to hoses to harnesses to switches will all be sourced from new companies. Items that used to come from long-standing partners in Croatia or Hungary or wherever will now be sourced from new providers in Ecuador or Venezuela or wherever. They will be specified to be exactly the same, of course, and in a perfect world a batch of 10,000 side-view-mirror motor switches would have the same 6-sigma quality whether they came from Ecuador or Hungary. But it's not a perfect world, and as governments and socioeconomic systems and labor laws and worker attitudes are different from country to country it's very difficult to eliminate variation, whether it's variation in worker dedication or variation in the failure rate of a window switch. It's entirely possible that an M2 made in Mexico ends up BETTER than one made in Germany, but where you believe it's asinine to think they would be different other people believe that differences are guaranteed and it's only a question of whether the differences are negligible - i.e. a difference in the color of a bracket in the trunk that you'll never even notice - vs. differences that are critical to the reliability of the car - i.e. a difference in the chemical composition of hoses that fail prematurely at low temperature.
Yeah but doesn't BMW follow specific guides and standards for the production of their vehicles?

There's a lot of testing and benchmarking for production quality. They employee thousands of people responsible just for this.

If a new supplier yields low quality products then someone at BMW specialised in the specific component will notice and flag it. It starts with trial batches, goes through different phases of evaluation and then gets approved.

Even the plants will be built and organised according to pre-existing blueprints. There might be some variation in the manufacturing line setup but it still solely will use pre-approved BMW machinery and standards.

Labour is the only variable that could influence the production but BMW doesn't have low standards of employment. Working at BMW, wherever in the world, is a good job for any career mechanic. I'd argue that because wages are so low in Mexico, there's much more competition to work for BMW and there's a good chance you'd get better and more motivated workers.

BMW is the 10th biggest car corporation with more than a hundred years of experience. It's also one of the most profitable manufacturers. You really think they don't know what they're doing?
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      03-12-2019, 09:23 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
First of all, I didn't accuse you of anything; I don't know you well enough to make that judgment.

Did you look at the back of your beloved iPhone lately to see where it was assembled..
You attributed awful racist stereotypes to me, thinking you needed to reassure me that the xenophobia you imagined I harbor was unnecessary. The mods may have removed your post, but I saw it and so did others. Just because they removed it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

And yes, I know exactly where my iPhone was manufactured. As if it will do any good to emphasize it, I am open to products, foods, languages and cultures from around the world. All of which has absolutely zero to do with what we're talking about here, which is variation in manufacturing across differing regions and economies when brand new and highly-complex supply chains are established.

If my calling you out is an issue, the mods are welcome to remove this. But I will not let stand your attributing ideas to me that I never typed.
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      03-12-2019, 09:51 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by FiatMultiplaAkrapovic View Post
You really think they don't know what they're doing?
I'm pretty sure they do. I even spent $55K of my own money on one, quite an endorsement I think.

As for the rest, I'm merely suggesting that it may be impossible to eliminate variation risk in complex new supply chains in new countries. If that makes me a heretic, I'm ok with that.
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      03-12-2019, 10:07 PM   #53
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This thread is not supposed to be turned into a political discussion. For politics, feel free to post in the dedicated section.

However, exceptionally, IMHO it is appropriate to make the following remark: it is saddening and disappointing to read comments in this thread reflecting low esteem, prejudice and lack of respect for/about Mexico and its people. Shame on you. Respect is a core value.

For the record: during the second half of last century, Leipzig was part of the German Democratic Republic (D.D.R. aka East Germany), which was part of Comecon (an economic organization from 1949 to 1991 under the leadership of the Soviet Union). As we all know, after the fall of the Soviet Union and communist rule in Eastern Europe, Germany got reunified (1990). Ever since, Leipzig flourished in many ways (and it continues to flourish).

BMW built a state-of-the-art factory in Leipzig: the Leipzig plant, building BMW cars since 2005, including the F87 M2 nowadays. With all the R&D, infrastructure, tools, materials, protocols, formation, support, maintenance, quality control, etc. the Leipzig workforce undoubtedly gives its level best to deliver, day after day, car after car, like their colleagues in other BMW plants worldwide do.

BMW recently built a state-of-the-art factory in Mexico: the San Luis Potosí plant, building the new BMW 3er this year.

So ask yourself: as the proof of the pudding is in the eating, isn't it outright unfair to assume that the workforce at the BMW San Luis Potosí plant won't manage to deliver like their colleagues in other BMW plants do ?

Everyone's entitled to a fair chance.

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      03-12-2019, 10:57 PM   #54
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Viva Mexico and the new M2 gen ///
Can finally put a Mexican flag (half breed here) on car and drive it...lol
Now that I think of it I should apply for dual residence passport and hopefully the US dollars is good in rate exchange...
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      03-13-2019, 12:39 AM   #55
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      03-13-2019, 02:35 AM   #56
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Fantastic I've always wanted to do a Mexican delivery!
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      03-13-2019, 04:36 AM   #57
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Anyone have any guess what motor will be the next generation G87 M2?

Some folks in another forum are speculating that the next M2 will have a single turbo built B58 and standard M Performance 2 series (G42) will have a stout version of the B48 4 cylinder.

I wouldn't be surprise if BMW does shoehorn a B58; for one, to keep the cost in check and also to keep the M2 under the proper pecking order of power and prestige, in comparison to the M4.

BMW has made several revisions to the B58 which is putting out close to 400hp, turn up the boost a little and - voila, the next M2 motor is born.. That's until the Competition version with a S58 is released a year later.

I don't feel like it really needs a S58 motor if it would keep the sticker price in check but some next generation Adaptive Suspension and calipers that could fit 18 inch wheels would be divine..

https://www.bmwblog.com/2018/10/31/b...88-horsepower/
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      03-13-2019, 12:18 PM   #58
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Interested to see how the G87 unfolds. I have had M cars since 1989 (starting with an E30 M3), but M seems to become too soft and heavy for me.

I must admit, I am really excited to see the:

2020 Lotus Elise / Exige.


That may check all the boxes for me. Never thought I would leave the M brand, but all the pork and M variants are saturating a once great brand.
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      03-13-2019, 06:53 PM   #59
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What do you guys think about this.

1M Coupe.

parts bin car!

Engine from Z4 3.5is
Gearbox 6 speed from 135i
Rear diff m3 e90/e92
rear subframe also from m3

Bmw M2

Same story.

Everything is comming from other models in production.

M2C

Same story again.

The M2 only exits because it wil always be a parts bin car.

No lets talk about new M2 in 2022 or so.

There is no manual gearbox available evey bmw has an automatic.
There will not be a DCT only made for the M2. DCT box is also very expensive. New M3 will get ZF8 HPX box which means awd to rwd option.

Engine could be B58 or maybe detuned S58. Pricewise the B58 is the best option.

How about the body. 1M coupe was made from a smaller base the e87 1 series. The m2 has been made from the 1 series f21 base

New 1 series is fwd platform and build m2 from it will not happen i quess. Maybe it will be build from the z4 platform.

Were will the new m2 be build from? This car wil not be sold in such big numbers if you compare to the m3 and m4.

Will the new m2 get it s own platform? The 1m coupe and m2 was build as a parts bin car.from other platforms and parts. What will be the base for the new M2?

Z4 base would not be a bad idea. Smaller wheel base more agile car.

Last edited by Advevo; 03-13-2019 at 07:06 PM..
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      03-13-2019, 08:31 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
Anyone have any guess what motor will be the next generation G87 M2?

Some folks in another forum are speculating that the next M2 will have a single turbo built B58 and standard M Performance 2 series (G42) will have a stout version of the B48 4 cylinder.

I wouldn't be surprise if BMW does shoehorn a B58; for one, to keep the cost in check and also to keep the M2 under the proper pecking order of power and prestige, in comparison to the M4.

BMW has made several revisions to the B58 which is putting out close to 400hp, turn up the boost a little and - voila, the next M2 motor is born.. That's until the Competition version with a S58 is released a year later.
I don't feel like it really needs a S58 motor if it would keep the sticker price in check but some next generation Adaptive Suspension and calipers that could fit 18 inch wheels would be divine..

https://www.bmwblog.com/2018/10/31/b...88-horsepower/
The B58 likely is in G87 M2 and M2C day one and the S58 is in the G87 M2 CS a couple years later for tens of thousands more than the base model. Such seemed to be the plan with the F87 M2 until emissions gifted the S55 to those who waited for the M2C.
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      03-13-2019, 08:55 PM   #61
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I think all the different M this and M that, M performance parts here M performance parts there have diluted what an M car used to be. They can be had in even the most run of the mill BMW base car. Every soccer mom can now drive an "M" X5.

Now they're trying to cut the M division into even more derivatives; the base, the competition, the cs, gts.

Every time they squeeze in a new model where there wasn't one before, it dilutes the prestige IMO.

Growing up, there was a regular 3 series and then a huge gap before you got to the high performance version. That felt special. Now, there's a bunch of variants in between, each with a tiny step up as it gets closer, the disparity isn't as great, it barely feels special compared to the model just underneath it. In the case of the f87 M2, the m240i is hardly a step down. The new M340i, a REGULAR new 3 series is almost identical in performance to a CURRENT production M car.... having an M car was the pinnacle, now it feels like just another add on option. They split the 3 series into the sedan and introduced the 4 series as the coupe..... well now that has a sedan also and serves as just another rung in the ladder. It's like an oversized menu at a restaurant, you know they can't make all of it with the same amount of detail or prestige.

I think this is causing more harm to future M cars more than them being built outside of Germany...

I say all this while I'm waiting for my 2020MY M2C.....

Rant over
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      03-14-2019, 01:26 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Advevo View Post
What do you guys think about this.
I am sure they'll build a nice little car, hopefully it will be minimalistic and a balanced performer.
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      03-14-2019, 08:18 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Advevo View Post
What do you guys think about this.

...

M2 - Same story. Everything is comming from other models in production.
M2C - Same story again.

The M2 only exits because it wil always be a parts bin car.
While technically true, there are certainly worse fates for a vehicle than to share parts with the BMW M4 which is a critically acclaimed high performance sport coupe.

Quote:
Now lets talk about new M2 in 2022 or so.

There is no manual gearbox available evey bmw has an automatic.
This is not true, and furthermore inside information currently suggests that the S58 will be mated to a manual transmission for one last purist-targeted RWD+6MT M3/M4 model. It is true that, for the new B58TU, the question of a manual pairing is still open. I would not be surprised to see the answer there be "no", especially if there is no B58 powered G42 which is a possibility (M Performance model could switch to a high output B48 instead). However, this would actually be a win/win - the M2 and M3/M4 "Pure model" can justify one another since the combined unit sales for the shared powertrain help make the business case for the S58+6MT combo.

Quote:
There will not be a DCT only made for the M2. DCT box is also very expensive. New M3 will get ZF8 HPX box which means awd to rwd option.
I would agree that if the G8x M3/M4 lose the DCT (and would also tend to agree the chances for that are high at this point), that the G87 M2 will probably lose it as well. That would certainly make the most sense for controlling costs. This might actually have the effect of pushing MT M2 sales upward.

Quote:
Engine could be B58 or maybe detuned S58. Pricewise the B58 is the best option.
The added cost of the S58 over the B58 is likely marginal. Even if the base model G87 uses the S58, I would expect only a small increase in price from today's M2 Competition model (with slightly more power in that case too, probably).

Quote:
How about the body... Maybe it will be build from the z4 platform.

...

Z4 base would not be a bad idea. Smaller wheel base more agile car.
The Z4 uses the CLAR matrix just like every new RWD BMW has starting with the G11/G12 back in 2015. So yes, the G42 and G87 will without question be built on CLAR as well. And I agree that it is very reasonable to guess that they could borrow some of the development used for the short wheelbase version that underpins the Z4 and Supra.

In summation, given the available tools in corporate toolshed, I strongly suspect that the G42 and G87 will be fantastic vehicles.
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      03-14-2019, 10:17 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MdMcoupe View Post
Interested to see how the G87 unfolds. I have had M cars since 1989 (starting with an E30 M3), but M seems to become too soft and heavy for me.

I must admit, I am really excited to see the:

2020 Lotus Elise / Exige.


That may check all the boxes for me. Never thought I would leave the M brand, but all the pork and M variants are saturating a once great brand.
Have you checked out the Evora?
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      03-19-2019, 06:47 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SConn View Post
Amen! I am totally new to the BMW world and I am very happy that my M2 chose me. I really do feel like it "chose me" because I honestly can't say how I landed on it in the first place. I am completely ignorant about BMW's. They've never really been on my radar. Until I saw that blue M2...I'm hoping to enjoy this car for a while . I don't even care what's coming up. I'm just enjoying what I have for now.
Hopefully it will entertain you as long as my e36 has entertained me. 22 years and still a blast. Plus zero payments and 500/yr insurance.

Give me four doors ( and rear drive) and I'll upgrade tomorrow.
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      03-20-2019, 08:28 AM   #66
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So at what point should one wait for the next gen vs getting the current gen?
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