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      02-23-2020, 09:52 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com View Post
Yes of course.
Look I know you are rooting for BM3 because you sell that tune and the associated mods on your store, but the fact is that it carries a higher risk of damaging someone's car than Carbahn. What determines which is a "better" tune is what customers prioritize more.
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      02-23-2020, 11:04 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hz101 View Post
Look I know you are rooting for BM3 because you sell that tune and the associated mods on your store, but the fact is that it carries a higher risk of damaging someone's car than Carbahn.
Do you have any data supporting your claim that Carbahn is safer?

If you decide you want to push your turbos past its max and choose to get a custom map which does so, that's on you, not the tune. OTS bootmod3 maps are as reliable as you can get.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hz101 View Post
What determines which is a "better" tune is what customers prioritize more.
You determine which tune is better by comparing features, safety, power, support. I'm going to assume safety is the same, although a lot more people use bootmod3.

Bootmod3 has Carbahn beat in everything else, and it's not even close.
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      02-23-2020, 04:23 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com View Post
Do you have any data supporting your claim that Carbahn is safer?

If you decide you want to push your turbos past its max and choose to get a custom map which does so, that's on you, not the tune. OTS bootmod3 maps are as reliable as you can get.




You determine which tune is better by comparing features, safety, power, support. I'm going to assume safety is the same, although a lot more people use bootmod3.

Bootmod3 has Carbahn beat in everything else, and it's not even close.
Carbahn offers a warranty in case there is a failure because of their tune. Do you have any data to support that OTS BM3 maps are just as safe? They could at least offer a warranty for those maps.

There is a clear conflict of interest in your argument. This forum needs to be better moderated to take into account forum members looking to sell stuff vs those providing factual information.
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      02-23-2020, 05:02 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hz101 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com View Post
Do you have any data supporting your claim that Carbahn is safer?

If you decide you want to push your turbos past its max and choose to get a custom map which does so, that's on you, not the tune. OTS bootmod3 maps are as reliable as you can get.




You determine which tune is better by comparing features, safety, power, support. I'm going to assume safety is the same, although a lot more people use bootmod3.

Bootmod3 has Carbahn beat in everything else, and it's not even close.
Carbahn offers a warranty in case there is a failure because of their tune. Do you have any data to support that OTS BM3 maps are just as safe? They could at least offer a warranty for those maps.

There is a clear conflict of interest in your argument. This forum needs to be better moderated to take into account forum members looking to sell stuff vs those providing factual information.
I agree with your wholeheartedly..

I don't know how safe Carbahn or BM3 tunes are, so it would not be fair for me to speculate on it's reliability but when I'm at an official dealer and they have Dinan (Carbahn spin-off) posters plaster all over the service waiting area, common sense will tell you that they put their trust in that produce and by extension, so could the consumer.

In spite of Dinan/Carbahn supplementary warranty coverage, a franchise dealer still has a fiduciary responsibility to the consumer and BMW in ensuring that any product they are endorsing is safe and reliable to the vehicle.

BM3 can push as much power and boost as they like, possible beyond the limitations of the motor or its handing and still operate with impunity, should your vehicle fail, as a result of the added strain.

This is so self-explanatory, not even sure why it's in dispute..
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      02-24-2020, 12:57 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hz101 View Post
Do you have any data to support that OTS BM3 maps are just as safe?
I do.

It's over 25 000 bootmod3 OTS map users running their maps safely for years. I do not need more than this data, you're the one that needs to provide data proving otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hz101 View Post
There is a clear conflict of interest in your argument.
Whether I'm a vendor or not does not have any impact on the validity of my argument. If you do not agree with what I said, post your data and prove me wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hz101 View Post
This forum needs to be better moderated to take into account forum members looking to sell stuff vs those providing factual information.
What factual data? You did not provide any data whatsoever.

The fact that you are asking mods to shut me up because you cannot have a discussion about cars on a car forum is pretty telling.
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      02-24-2020, 10:11 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com View Post
%snip%
The fact that you are asking mods to shut me up because you cannot have a discussion on cars on a car forum is pretty telling.
Put down the meth.
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      02-24-2020, 11:26 AM   #29
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just to give a back ground Carbahn is owned by steve dinan. A few years ago he sold his shares of Dinan to start Carbahn so he can go racing and work on more individual project cars rather then develop mass market parts.

I listen to Steve Dinan speak on a few podcasts and he's a very smart guy. He one of the first people BMW trusted to provide aftermarket support for BMWs.

I'm fully confident his tunes are very reliable, from his interviews it seems he's going more for the OEM+ type market...hence why he charges more and offers warranty to provide that insurance that the car will last as long as oem warranty.

BM3/MHD is more of people who want as much power as possible and have value.

I would say there different niches within the same market.

Hence the above arguments are pointless since there meant for different types of buyers.
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      02-24-2020, 12:25 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TemjinX2 View Post
just to give a back ground Carbahn is owned by steve dinan. A few years ago he sold his shares of Dinan to start Carbahn so he can go racing and work on more individual project cars rather then develop mass market parts.

I listen to Steve Dinan speak on a few podcasts and he's a very smart guy. He one of the first people BMW trusted to provide aftermarket support for BMWs.

I'm fully confident his tunes are very reliable, from his interviews it seems he's going more for the OEM+ type market...hence why he charges more and offers warranty to provide that insurance that the car will last as long as oem warranty.

BM3/MHD is more of people who want as much power as possible and have value.

I would say there different niches within the same market.

Hence the above arguments are pointless since there meant for different types of buyers.
I never said Steve is not a good tuner or his tunes are not reliable. Please check my conversation with OP. He explained he wants Carbahn because of warranty and I understood his decision and wished him luck.

The argument is about the reliability of Bootmod3, hz101 claims it's not as reliable as Carbahn without any proof.

Other than that part, I agree with everything you said.
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      02-25-2020, 07:51 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hz101 View Post
Look I know you are rooting for BM3 because you sell that tune and the associated mods on your store, but the fact is that it carries a higher risk of damaging someone's car than Carbahn. What determines which is a "better" tune is what customers prioritize more.
wait wait wait where did you get this fact from this is very interesting
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      02-25-2020, 08:28 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com View Post
I do.

It's over 25 000 bootmod3 OTS map users running their maps safely for years. I do not need more than this data, you're the one that needs to provide data proving otherwise.



Whether I'm a vendor or not does not have any impact on the validity of my argument. If you do not agree with what I said, post your data and prove me wrong.



What factual data? You did not provide any data whatsoever.

The fact that you are asking mods to shut me up because you cannot have a discussion about cars on a car forum is pretty telling.
Can you cite the source of that 25,000 number? And please also prove that none of those people have ever had any issues with BM3. Just by reading the forums I know that people encounter issues, so you are clearly mistaken. The question then is which tune - BM3 or CarBahn - would have fewer issues. I don't know the answer to that. And neither do you. All I know is that CarBahn comes with a warranty while BM3 doesn't. Hence the risk of loss to a customer is less with CarBahn.

You are correct that BM3 has more features. But I don't agree that having more features and being able to brag about the highest performance numbers necessarily makes a tune better for EVERYONE.

I do risk management for work and never knew I'd have to use that reasoning in a car enthusiast forum. But here we are.
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      02-25-2020, 10:50 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hz101 View Post
Can you cite the source of that 25,000 number?
Their order numbers started a 100; they are now at 25 000, considering that dealers order more than one license at a time (sometimes 100 licenses at a time), the 25 000 number is conservative.

That being said whether its 25k, 24k or 10k. There is no doubt bm3 has a huge market share, and their customer's vast majority is happy with their product. That's the point I was trying to make


Quote:
Originally Posted by hz101 View Post
And please also prove that none of those people have ever had any issues with BM3.
I never made such a statement.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hz101 View Post
The question then is which tune - BM3 or CarBahn - would have fewer issues.
That's not the question at all; in my opinion, both are reliable tunes.


Here is your statement again

the fact is that it carries a higher risk of damaging someone's car than Carbahn.

You fail to provide any data or technical knowledge of how Carbahn tuning is superior/safer.

You made a false statement. It's obvious you even realize that by now since you are not defending that post anymore, instead, you are nitpicking my responses to change the subject or asking mods to shut me up.
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      02-26-2020, 10:28 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com View Post
Their order numbers started a 100; they are now at 25 000, considering that dealers order more than one license at a time (sometimes 100 licenses at a time), the 25 000 number is conservative.

That being said whether its 25k, 24k or 10k. There is no doubt bm3 has a huge market share, and their customer's vast majority is happy with their product. That's the point I was trying to make




I never made such a statement.




That's not the question at all; in my opinion, both are reliable tunes.


Here is your statement again

the fact is that it carries a higher risk of damaging someone's car than Carbahn.

You fail to provide any data or technical knowledge of how Carbahn tuning is superior/safer.

You made a false statement. It's obvious you even realize that by now since you are not defending that post anymore, instead, you are nitpicking my responses to change the subject or asking mods to shut me up.
Ok let me dumb this down some more for you.

Here is your original statement from 2/20:

I would still go with bootmod3 and just select a more conservative map. Bootmod3 is the better tune without the 4x markup.

You will save a lot of money and take advantage of all the bm3 features that are missing from the Carbahn option


You are claiming that BM3 is the better tune just because it offers more features. My argument is that having more features does not make a tune necessarily better for EVERY CUSTOMER. As a business owner, you should know that different customers have different needs and preferences. You cannot define for them which tune is the "best".

Then, you claim that running BM3 is no more risky than CarBahn. Here are some facts about the 2 tunes:

BM3
-Lets users change many things controlled by their car's computer.
-Offers maps developed by multiple tuners who can change even more things in someone's car.
-Offers no warranty in case the tune causes damage, either by running a conservative OTS map or a very aggressive one with supporting mods.

CarBahn
-Does not let users make changes on their own.
-Maps are developed by 1 tuner whose credibility people can attest to.
-Offers a warranty for any damage caused by the tune.

Letting people make changes to the tune (whether they are tuners or customers, competent or not) inherently adds more risk to this process. This is just risk management 101.


Now let's discuss the "support data" you provided.

It's over 25 000 bootmod3 OTS map users running their maps safely for years. I do not need more than this data, you're the one that needs to provide data proving otherwise.

How do you know that all those over 25k BM3 users are running their maps safely for years? Do they personally report to you about this?

Their order numbers started a 100; they are now at 25 000, considering that dealers order more than one license at a time (sometimes 100 licenses at a time), the 25 000 number is conservative.

That being said whether its 25k, 24k or 10k. There is no doubt bm3 has a huge market share, and their customer's vast majority is happy with their product. That's the point I was trying to make


-So assuming you are counting the BM3 users using order numbers. Are these only for the car/engine in question (OG M2/N55) or for all cars/engines they make tunes for? If this order number count is not specific to the N55 then your 25k figure is incorrect by a large amount.
-Then you yourself admit that you do not have credible data to back up your claim. Simply saying that "their customer's vast majority is happy with their product" is not enough.


Moving on, here's how you end your post:

You made a false statement. It's obvious you even realize that by now since you are not defending that post anymore, instead, you are nitpicking my responses to change the subject or asking mods to shut me up.

My argument was:
-You can't claim that a tune is better just because it offers more features.
-CarBahn carries less risk based on the available facts and the principles of risk management.

I stand by my argument.

I am referring to your arguments not to "nitpick", but to show that they do not back up your claims in favor of BM3. I am not asking the mods to shut you up because I disagree with you, but because there is a very obvious conflict of interest in your posts on this entire forum (not just this particular thread). You are free to post whatever you want of course, but people should be aware of this inherent bias.

Lastly, your posts are very telling of what people can expect when dealing with you outside of this forum.
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      02-26-2020, 11:16 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hz101 View Post
Ok let me dumb this down some more for you.
Glad you are keeping it respectful


Quote:
Originally Posted by hz101 View Post
Here is your original statement from 2/20:

I would still go with bootmod3 and just select a more conservative map. Bootmod3 is the better tune without the 4x markup.

You will save a lot of money and take advantage of all the bm3 features that are missing from the Carbahn option


You are claiming that BM3 is the better tune just because it offers more features. My argument is that having more features does not make a tune necessarily better for EVERY CUSTOMER. As a business owner, you should know that different customers have different needs and preferences. You cannot define for them which tune is the "best".
incorrect.

I'm not claiming bootmod3 is better just because it offers more features. I'm claiming bootmod3 is the better option because it just as reliable, has more features and more power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hz101 View Post

Then, you claim that running BM3 is no more risky than CarBahn. Here are some facts about the 2 tunes:

BM3
-Lets users change many things controlled by their car's computer.
-Offers maps developed by multiple tuners who can change even more things in someone's car.
-Offers no warranty in case the tune causes damage, either by running a conservative OTS map or a very aggressive one with supporting mods.

CarBahn
-Does not let users make changes on their own.
-Maps are developed by 1 tuner whose credibility people can attest to.
-Offers a warranty for any damage caused by the tune.

Letting people make changes to the tune (whether they are tuners or customers, competent or not) inherently adds more risk to this process. This is just risk management 101.

Offers maps developed by multiple tuners who can change even more things in someone's car.
Giving people the flexibility to make their own maps does not make bootmod3 OTS maps any riskier, that's called custom tuning.
Bootmod3 OTS maps are as reliable you can get.
In your first 2 points, you are comparing OTS maps to a custom map. It sounds like you do not know the difference.

Offering a warranty does not make the tune any more reliable. I can offer my own tune tomorrow and offer lifetime warranty.
That does not make my tune more reliable than Carbahn just because my warranty is longer.
What makes the tune reliable is customer feedback/history.

For the millionth time, I believe both are just as reliable



Quote:
Originally Posted by hz101 View Post
Now let's discuss the "support data" you provided.

It's over 25 000 bootmod3 OTS map users running their maps safely for years. I do not need more than this data, you're the one that needs to provide data proving otherwise.

How do you know that all those over 25k BM3 users are running their maps safely for years? Do they personally report to you about this?
yes they all report to me that's how i know, you certainly made your point here

Quote:
Originally Posted by hz101 View Post
Their order numbers started a 100; they are now at 25 000, considering that dealers order more than one license at a time (sometimes 100 licenses at a time), the 25 000 number is conservative.


That being said whether its 25k, 24k or 10k. There is no doubt bm3 has a huge market share, and their customer's vast majority is happy with their product. That's the point I was trying to make


-So assuming you are counting the BM3 users using order numbers. Are these only for the car/engine in question (OG M2/N55) or for all cars/engines they make tunes for? If this order number count is not specific to the N55 then your 25k figure is incorrect by a large amount.
-Then you yourself admit that you do not have credible data to back up your claim. Simply saying that "their customer's vast majority is happy with their product" is not enough.
I confirmed with bm3 the number of users is closer to 45k.
the safest estimate of N55 would be 10k

Bootmod3 is the most proven tune on the market with the largest customer base. Its one of the most reliable tunes, to claim otherwise is ridiculous

You are nitpicking my points to try and change the subject, it's just not working.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hz101 View Post
Moving on, here's how you end your post:

You made a false statement. It's obvious you even realize that by now since you are not defending that post anymore, instead, you are nitpicking my responses to change the subject or asking mods to shut me up.

My argument was:
-You can't claim that a tune is better just because it offers more features.
-CarBahn carries less risk based on the available facts and the principles of risk management.

I stand by my argument.

You claimed that the fact is that it carries a higher risk of damaging someone's car than Carbahn.


What's your proof or data? Absolutely nothing

Your only argument is that Bootmod3 is not as safe because it gives users the flexibility to create their own maps if they want to.

In this case, you are comparing user-created maps to an OTS map. I suggest you do some reading on the difference between the two and for now stick to comparing OTS maps between both tunes
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      02-26-2020, 12:51 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com View Post
Glad you are keeping it respectful
%snip%
I suggest you do some reading on the difference between the two and for now stick to comparing OTS maps between both tunes
bootmod3 is a ... a full end user open custom tuning platform

You'll have to differentiate BM3 (a tuning platform) and ProTune (tuning from pro tuning freak).

Picking nits?

Modifying has always carried risk of warranty and it doesn't apply just to cars we love to mod

There is no "one size fits all" wrt mods
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      02-26-2020, 12:54 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com View Post
Glad you are keeping it respectful




incorrect.

I'm not claiming bootmod3 is better just because it offers more features. I'm claiming bootmod3 is the better option because it just as reliable, has more features and more power.



In your first 2 points, you are comparing OTS maps to a custom map. It sounds like you do not know the difference.

Offering a warranty does not make the tune any more reliable. I can offer my own tune tomorrow and offer lifetime warranty.
That does not make my tune more reliable than Carbahn just because my warranty is longer.
What makes the tune reliable is customer feedback/history.

For the millionth time, I believe both are just as reliable





yes they all report to me that's how i know, you certainly made your point here



I confirmed with bm3 the number of users is closer to 45k.
the safest estimate of N55 would be 10k

Bootmod3 is the most proven tune on the market with the largest customer base. Its one of the most reliable tunes, to claim otherwise is ridiculous

You are nitpicking my points to try and change the subject, it's just not working.




You claimed that the fact is that it carries a higher risk of damaging someone's car than Carbahn.


What's your proof or data? Absolutely nothing

Your only argument is that Bootmod3 is not as safe because it gives users the flexibility to create their own maps if they want to.

In this case, you are comparing user-created maps to an OTS map. I suggest you do some reading on the difference between the two and for now stick to comparing OTS maps between both tunes
For the millionth time, one tune offers a warranty and the other doesn't. Hence, they pose different levels of risk of loss to the customer. If you are so confident that BM3 is just as reliable then why don't you offer your own warranty for it when someone buys it from your store? At that point the risk level would be comparable.
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      02-26-2020, 01:59 PM   #38
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I don't have a dog in this fight as I have neither tune being discussed however I thought it was common knowledge the Carbahn (Dinan) didn't produce as much power as other tunes due to them wanting to provide a safer tune thus less chance of having a warranty engine claim against them. If that is in fact not true then I wonder why it's a common misconception?
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      02-26-2020, 04:57 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hz101 View Post
For the millionth time, one tune offers a warranty and the other doesn't. Hence, they pose different levels of risk of loss to the customer.
You are mixing 2 things here.

Carbahn tune is offered with a warranty, its an extra safety net that some customers are looking for. It puts their minds at ease.

I completely agree with you and its a really good marketing strategy


But that's not what your original statement was, here it is again.

"the fact is that it carries a higher risk of damaging someone's car than Carbahn."


This statement is wrong. Bootmod3 does not pose a higher risk of damaging a car. The warranty does not make a tune more reliable.
What makes it more reliable are the values of boost, ignition timining, afr,etc...
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      02-26-2020, 05:01 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cecaa850 View Post
I don't have a dog in this fight as I have neither tune being discussed however I thought it was common knowledge the Carbahn (Dinan) didn't produce as much power as other tunes due to them wanting to provide a safer tune thus less chance of having a warranty engine claim against them. If that is in fact not true then I wonder why it's a common misconception?
Its a marketing strategy to convince customers to get their tune.
Reality is all the proven tunes are reliable and safe.

A simple datalog monitoring knock, afr, ignition timing, boost,etc... will show whether the map is safe or not
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      02-26-2020, 07:23 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by cecaa850 View Post
I don't have a dog in this fight as I have neither tune being discussed however I thought it was common knowledge the Carbahn (Dinan) didn't produce as much power as other tunes due to them wanting to provide a safer tune thus less chance of having a warranty engine claim against them. If that is in fact not true then I wonder why it's a common misconception?
Exactly! Carbahn/Dinan understand what the limits of these cars are and make tunes on the conservative side so they can offer a warranty without incurring a huge financial loss in case there are many warranty claims.

But the other tuners out there have a different strategy. They are targeting customers who are willing to take more risks at the expense of more features and more power, etc. If, as Mike claims, the warranty is simply a marketing strategy to sell more tunes, then why haven't more tuners like BM3 gone that route? They could sell a heck of a lot more tunes by offering a warranty just for the OTS maps. But they don't because they know that their tunes are riskier as they are offer more features and higher performance.

I reiterate my point that one tune is not better than the other simply because of more features etc. There is a market for both those who prefer more features and those who prefer safety.
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      02-27-2020, 04:13 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by hz101 View Post
Exactly! Carbahn/Dinan understand what the limits of these cars are and make tunes on the conservative side so they can offer a warranty without incurring a huge financial loss in case there are many warranty claims.

But the other tuners out there have a different strategy. They are targeting customers who are willing to take more risks at the expense of more features and more power, etc. If, as Mike claims, the warranty is simply a marketing strategy to sell more tunes, then why haven't more tuners like BM3 gone that route? They could sell a heck of a lot more tunes by offering a warranty just for the OTS maps. But they don't because they know that their tunes are riskier as they are offer more features and higher performance.

I reiterate my point that one tune is not better than the other simply because of more features etc. There is a market for both those who prefer more features and those who prefer safety.
i completely disagree with you the mere fact that i can log my car and monitor it and adapt my map to fuel conditions completely out weighs any warranty that dinan or carbahn offers, lets not kid ourselves there are plenty cases where people with dinan parts and tunes have had their warranties removed and have had to turn to lawyers for help. Anything you add to your car should be with a own risk mentality, warranties are just marketing schemes to charge more money.
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      02-27-2020, 06:47 AM   #43
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i completely disagree with you the mere fact that i can log my car and monitor it and adapt my map to fuel conditions completely out weighs any warranty that dinan or carbahn offers, lets not kid ourselves there are plenty cases where people with dinan parts and tunes have had their warranties removed and have had to turn to lawyers for help. Anything you add to your car should be with a own risk mentality, warranties are just marketing schemes to charge more money.
How do you adapt your map to fuel conditions?
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      02-27-2020, 06:52 AM   #44
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How do you adapt your map to fuel conditions?
by flashing it to the ACN map if fuel is shit or flashing the 93 map if your fuel quality is superior. i use both maps alot depending on which area i am in. You have zero flexibility on a carbahn tune
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