[bri1042]

Well, I made it three months with a stock BMW audio system. That's a record for me. I'll start with what I think of the HK that comes stock in US M2 Comps.

First off, context:
I am an audiophile. I have to admit it, despite the negative connotations that come with it. I don't agree that all admitted audiophiles have the same needs and requirements for their systems, but we all have our standards and have trouble letting go when a system doesn't live up to them. One of the big differences for each of us is the, quite seriously, the music we listen to. Somewhere out there is a perfect audio system in a perfect room with zero need of EQ's or room adjustment. In that room, some very serious music lovers will still want to flip some switches and pump up the bass and treble. They love their music as much as I do, but their EQ settings would not work for the run of music I listen to (Beatles through Punk and a huge variety of stuff that really tapers off somewhere in the 90's).

How is the HK in the M2C?
It's the best system I've had in a BMW. I've had "Base" stereo, Hifi, and HK, all in 3-series cars. The HK in the M2 may be "cut down", but it's also missing the tweeter overload (too many of the things) of the HK in my 340. And it's missing the bizarre 200Hz single boost on that system (likely intended to improve mid-bass but way too much). It's quite clean and the sound stage isn't bad once the center channel is pulled out. It's also mid-bass weak, and the HK tweeters are overly sharp (which some folk like and I really, really do not). It doesn't have enough power. I'm running above 3/4 volume on music with a low reference volume. Having to crank the bass to overcome the underseat woofers being so massively under-powered is a constant with the BMW systems, HK or not. This system is still the closest-to-acceptable system I've gotten in a BMW. I thought I could live with it for longer, but the weak mid-bass and mid-range, and the harsh tweeters have gotten to me. Too many songs just sound wrong.

What I had in my 340:
My car was tuned by MusicarNW for a two-seat experience using the MOST FiberLink to a Mobridge, then to an Alpine DSP running Dolby Surround with a custom tune to make it work right, then to a JL 8-Channel amp and a Helix Match Mono amp. They fed a Morel point-source driver in the center, two Hybrid Audio SE Carbon midranges with Morel tweeters in the front, Jehnert under-seat woofers, stock speakers in the rear (since they were just providing low-energy fill), and a JL 10" sub in the trunk. It was magical. Every single track I fed it sounded CORRECT. Anyone who thinks that a car can't be a music hall hasn't heard what an expert tuner can do with decent equipment.

I can't put that back together, really, in the M2. There are space issues unless I'm willing to lose some of the actual trunk space. There's no fiber link from the head unit, so we can't do the two-seat tune again. I had most of the equipment in my Hifi '13 328 tuned just for the driver's seat and that's more where I'm going to go this time.

My rule for this run: I don't want anything done that I can't reverse if I have to. I had no idea where the guys ran wires and what they did to get some of the bits where they were (the control unit for the DSP was in my glove compartment...which sounds neat until you realize that you can't put anything else in the glove compartment without the buttons on the control unit getting pushed). When it came time to reverse the 340's install, I pretty much had no choice but to take time off from work to get the car downtown to MusicarNW. I'd rather not do that again.

I learned a lot watching the wizard tune my last three cars. I studied what he did (I hope he doesn't mind) until I knew why he did it. And before giving up and putting myself in the hands of others, I became very proficient at disassembling F-series BMW interiors.

I'm starting out this time with just the Bimmertech version of the PP86DSP. Once I make sure that works and I look at the stock tune, I'll put in my Hybrid Audio and Morel door speakers. I don't think I'll be using the Center Channel at all. I wish I had another Morel point source driver...if I did, I'd use them in the back deck. I haven't figured out what to do about the under-seat woofers or the sub. I need an enclosure for the sub, probably a rack for the sub amp, and the Bimmertech amp/dsp isn't powerful enough to push the Jehnerts at 6 ohms impedance (I don't think). I'm going with Bimmertech instead of the JL and Alpine I have mostly for space reasons. Stuffing the monster 8 channel amp in with a separate DSP was a daunting thought.

My goals are a little less grand this time, and I want to do this as a project for ME to succeed or fail at rather than a task for someone else to do. If, in the long run, I can't make it work well enough, I'll tuck my tail between my legs and seek out my betters for assistance, like I did years ago when I had less knowledge. If the Bimmertech amp doesn't turn out to be sufficient in the long run, I have a friend with a new HK-equipped Mini who would love it.

I'll keep everyone posted as the project progresses, but the end result could be a while!

[///M Houbi]

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[bri1042]

The Bimmertech amp arrived yesterday. I have software downloaded, along with a pink noise FLAC file and an audio analyzer on my phone (I don't have a good microphone, so phone and PC microphones will have to do for the moment). The custom connector cable that Bimmertech includes is really nicely put together.

3 more hours of work today and I can get started.

[M Fifty]

If you're an audiophile, why would you be spending your cash in a car?

It's the equivalent of mounting your home system on top of the washing machine while it's on the Spin cycle...

[bri1042]

Originally Posted by M Fifty

If you're an audiophile, why would you be spending your cash in a car?

It's the equivalent of mounting your home system on top of the washing machine while it's on the Spin cycle...

Unless you have that perfect room custom built in your custom house, no where is perfect for audio. My living room certainly isn't. My cash goes every where that I listen to music, to get the best I can out of it. Perfection won't happen but that doesn't mean that I have to listen to poorly-tuned systems that are less than they could be for the environment they're in.

Car audio can sound a lot better than most people think it can. If you've never experienced an actual "as good as it can be" system, or you're not capable of appreciating it, be glad. You'll spend less money.

[M Fifty]

It certainly can - cost/benefit analysis suggests an uplift in speaker quality and the signal fed to them pays dividends. After that, you have to be listening to the traffic news while stuck in same to appreciate the difference.

The M2 is not a quietest car I've ever owned, and - indeed - uses the noise as a sales point.

So. Ditch the symposer (sp?), and enjoy feeding dynamically compressed tracks through the HK, but forget the rest.

[bri1042]

Originally Posted by M Fifty

It certainly can - cost/benefit analysis suggests an uplift in speaker quality and the signal fed to them pays dividends. After that, you have to be listening to the traffic news while stuck in same to appreciate the difference.

The M2 is not a quietest car I've ever owned, and - indeed - uses the noise as a sales point.

So. Ditch the symposer (sp?), and enjoy feeding dynamically compressed tracks through the HK, but forget the rest.

Nah. Plus, I already have the most expensive parts (speakers). I don't feed it anything less than FLAC files pulled from physical media I own, so I might as well do the rest of it. The M2 is by far not the loudest car I've ever owned, road-noise-wise. If it's not your bag, then enjoy whatever bag you enjoy.

[bri1042]

And, really. Cost/Benefit? If that was what we were all concerned with, none of us would have bought an M2.

[bri1042]

First step completed. Install took about 20 minutes to pull the trunk trim, get the amp out, get the new one in and make sure I had sound.

[bri1042]

I'm probably going to pause and not change out the front speakers today. I want to see how this sounds with the stock tune on the PP86 with the stock speakers first. I've got the DSP tool installed on my laptop, so I'll go back up whatever came on the thing and take a look at what they did. And then I'll go for a cup of coffee or something to listen to it a bit.

[bri1042]

Likely the last post for the night. The tune loaded on the DSP has HIFI in the title, and looking at the what they did with the EQ, it certainly looks closer to what I have from when I had a PP82 running in a HIFI F30. They did the timing on the speakers wonderfully, though. I've emailed them to see if they have a different tune, and found one that folk got for HK 2-series cars in the past. It looks like a much more appropriate tune. I'll be spending some time having fun with the EQ.

[M Fifty]

Originally Posted by bri1042

And, really. Cost/Benefit? If that was what we were all concerned with, none of us would have bought an M2.

It's quicker, yet cheaper than the car it replaced - but not as good looking.

Perhaps if I'd cited performance vs effectiveness, and diminishing returns?

Enjoy the project in the meantime.

[M Fifty]

Originally Posted by bri1042

First step completed. Install took about 20 minutes to pull the trunk trim, get the amp out, get the new one in and make sure I had sound.

Another question - sorry. The thing that feeds fake engine sounds through the speakers appears to be in place still - why are you keeping that?

[///M Houbi]

Originally Posted by M Fifty

Another question - sorry. The thing that feeds fake engine sounds through the speakers appears to be in place still - why are you keeping that?

You can simply code it off. No disadvantages by doing so like in the older days.

[MR.]

bri1042 would you be interested in making a really short and simple DYI once you are done? Answering questions like:

- What gear and tech do you need to buy?
- What pre-installation needs to be done?
- What needs to be installed where?

I am destined to upgrade my HK as well and I know one other person interested as well. I had a Gladen system in my M2 Coupe, but I am really interested into finding another option.

As long as we can plug-and-play this with relatively easy speaker and amplifier replacements, maybe a DSP installation and some software installations I feel we have a winning package.

MR

[bri1042]

Originally Posted by ///M Houbi

You can simply code it off. No disadvantages by doing so like in the older days.

Yeah, it's coded off at the moment. I probably would put a bypass cable in just to get it fully out of the loop, but I don't currently have one.

Awake and armed with coffee this morning, it was really clear looking at the pre-loaded tune that it was intended to make up for a system without tweeters (so not just miss-named, it really was the F22 Hifi tune).

I pulled up my old F30 tunes and built a not-terribly aggressive tune from scratch this morning to use as a better starting point and loaded it a few minutes ago. Using The Jam's Ghosts as a "first listen" track (great bass note at the beginning of the song) it doesn't sound bad at all. I'm kinda glad I had to start from scratch. I had a lot of fun with it this morning. Off to see Spider Ham's big screen debut in a few minutes, so I'll be able to give the tune a better workout.

[bri1042]

Originally Posted by MR.

bri1042 would you be interested in making a really short and simple DYI once you are done? Answering questions like:

- What gear and tech do you need to buy?
- What pre-installation needs to be done?
- What needs to be installed where?

I am destined to upgrade my HK as well and I know one other person interested as well. I had a Gladen system in my M2 Coupe, but I am really interested into finding another option.

As long as we can plug-and-play this with relatively easy speaker and amplifier replacements, maybe a DSP installation and some software installations I feel we have a winning package.

MR

Yeah, I'll do a more "all in one" post after I get further along. I'm not sure when I'll look at pulling the doors to change to my better door speakers, since once I get to that point, I'm going to be itching to get my Jehnerts back in (and then the trunk sub has to go in or I'll lose a lot of bass). From my experience with what was built into my two F30's, there's a certain point you can't pass without the Jehnert's (I really don't know if anyone else makes an actual woofer, not subwoofer, to go under the seats). Even really good 4" speakers just don't go low enough well enough to fully cover the 100hz to 200Hz range that's so critical to male human voices (among other sounds).

The sub to woofer to mid-range to tweeter combo is the only way I know to really deal with it. It's complicated, and it isn't cheap.

[bri1042]

Update on the tune I put together after driving a bunch yesterday:

Overall clarity is very improved from the original HK. There's more volume available overall, but the increase in power isn't as pronounced as it was when I had a similar setup starting from the F30 Hifi setup (not a surprise since the HK amp is more powerful).

The subs are a bit buried at the moment. The bass is there, and it sounds pretty good when bass is all that's being played, but bass notes played while higher notes are playing get buried. Overall, the sound is a bit too bright. I need to tweak the tune to bring out, I think, the first 500 Hz. The sound stage is also a bit too forward for my tastes, so I need to bring the rears up a bit (or bring the front speakers down a bit...which is an iffy move since the front tweeters are the only close to on-axis tweeters).

I had a thought for moment, which I might try, that cutting off the rear tweeters might not be a terrible idea (in software...set the tune to cut off at around 3k Hz in the rear). The HK metal tweeters are so dominating and sharp that I'm just not sure that having 4 of them is a good idea (I'm already down from 5 since I pulled the center speaker two months ago). I know that having 7 of them stock in my 340 HK was terrible (which is the only explanation for the bizarre and massive 200Hz signal boost built into the HK setup on the F30's).

[M Fifty]

Originally Posted by bri1042

Yeah, it's coded off at the moment. I probably would put a bypass cable in just to get it fully out of the loop, but I don't currently have one.

Awake and armed with coffee this morning, it was really clear looking at the pre-loaded tune that it was intended to make up for a system without tweeters (so not just miss-named, it really was the F22 Hifi tune).

I pulled up my old F30 tunes and built a not-terribly aggressive tune from scratch this morning to use as a better starting point and loaded it a few minutes ago. Using The Jam's Ghosts as a "first listen" track (great bass note at the beginning of the song) it doesn't sound bad at all. I'm kinda glad I had to start from scratch. I had a lot of fun with it this morning. Off to see Spider Ham's big screen debut in a few minutes, so I'll be able to give the tune a better workout.

I think you can just disconnect the cable to the ASD if you're fitting a new amp?

[orangeglim]

Originally Posted by M Fifty

I think you can just disconnect the cable to the ASD if you're fitting a new amp?

Doing this can throw silent codes and cause future updates done by the dealer to fail / hang. Best to buy a bypass cable which removes the audio connections but keeps the data wires in place so that issues like that don't happen.

[Dirtboy]

OP, is there a reason you went with the Match PP86DSP instead of the UP 7BMW?

The UP 7BMW has 65wx5 4 ohm plus 160wx2 2ohm channels plus a RCA pre-out for a separate sub amp.

I just went through this whole process; still tuning the system though....

[bri1042]

Yes, I've had a PP82 in the past, and wanted to see what Bimmertech did with their tunes. I had some other reason from looking at the UP's specs, but I don't recall what at the moment (difficult night, haven't had much sleep). I think the UP 7 would have been a slightly better choice, at this point. I promised a summary post at the end of all this and I think there's a good chance my recommendation for a simple amp replacement is going to be the UP (plus, the name is adorable) vs. the PP86 variants.

I played around a lot with the tune I built from scratch, and I got the sound to a pretty good point. Yesterday, Bimmertech emailed me their actual F87 HK tune (my unit DID come pre-loaded with the wrong tune), and I've loaded that into the car. They took a very different approach than I did on the tune I built. I'll see how it sounds on the run to work today.