[///Mobbin]

I was watching this Autocar vid this morning (start at 2:30) which talks about the hopes for the next M3 before the most recent iteration came out. As I watched, I couldn't help but think these are my hopes for the M2!

Will they be similar? What will be different? Thoughts?

[///Mobbin]

[///Mobbin]

[IEDEI]

nah....it will be a slightly smaller M4, IMO. Whether that's a good or bad thing depends on your opinion of the M4.

The E46 M3 was more organic and not full of electronic steering, multiple drive settings, or artificial exhaust notes.

The last cars which carried the 'organic' spirit of the M3 were the E9X M3 and 1M. The line has now been redefined by the F8X M3/M4

Some people will like the modernity....some will definitely not!

[Cyberdemon]

Auto journalists will always find something to wax nostalgic about and complain about. They'll complain they miss the high revving NA I6 but not appreciate the fact that they have a ton of low end torque and a gearbox that can deliver 30mpg.

The steering will never be as good, ever. They drove hydraulic steering once and it was the bees knees. They could feel every grain of salt that they drove over, and it improved their driving skills ten-fold. The car is also too heavy...even though the E46 with some real world options could hit 3500 lbs.

Also, the tape deck was awesome, fuel economy doesn't matter because it's a race car and gas is $1.29 a gallon, and George Bush is still president.

At the end of the day if you love the E46, or E30, or E90 etc they are still available for sale and you can go buy one for a very reasonable cost.

If you want a modern RWD sports coupe that is built for performance at the same time as having the luxury comforts you expect in a $50k car, the M1 will probably be phenomenal. The M235 is already so fun to drive that it will be hard to make a more aggressive, more powerful version worse in any way.

I expect it will be an epic vehicle, and people can draw whatever comparisons they want because at the end of the day it will be faster, more efficient, and won't have a tape deck and a bunch of burnt out red LED's in the dash cluster.

[///Mobbin]

Originally Posted by IEDEI

nah....it will be a slightly smaller M4, IMO. Whether that's a good or bad thing depends on your opinion of the M4.

The E46 M3 was more organic and not full of electronic steering, multiple drive settings, or artificial exhaust notes.

The last cars which carried the 'organic' spirit of the M3 were the E9X M3 and 1M. The line has now been redefined by the F8X M3/M4

Some people will like the modernity....some will definitely not!

I see what you're saying and I think that's a fair assessment. Interestingly, I test drove both the M4 and m235i somewhat recently and felt as though the m235i was more connected to the road. I felt like I could sense the placement of the front tires a little better than in the M4. Then I definitely got that modern chassis/steering feel at the same time, which doesn't necessarily bother me. But I did appreciate the extra steering-feel/road-connection that I felt over the M4. Is this just due to the shorter wheelbase, shorter track widths, and overall more compact packaging? I think that is part of what I appreciate about the e46 m3, granted the hydraulic steering can never be replicated. I also think that sense of where the rear tires are at is somewhat lost in the new platforms (both the M4 and the m235i) but I'm not sure why. This is also just based on my limited time behind the wheel so perhaps my opinion will change with some more seat time.

[///Mobbin]

Originally Posted by Cyberdemon

Auto journalists will always find something to wax nostalgic about and complain about. They'll complain they miss the high revving NA I6 but not appreciate the fact that they have a ton of low end torque and a gearbox that can deliver 30mpg.

The steering will never be as good, ever. They drove hydraulic steering once and it was the bees knees. They could feel every grain of salt that they drove over, and it improved their driving skills ten-fold. The car is also too heavy...even though the E46 with some real world options could hit 3500 lbs.

Also, the tape deck was awesome, fuel economy doesn't matter because it's a race car and gas is $1.29 a gallon, and George Bush is still president.

At the end of the day if you love the E46, or E30, or E90 etc they are still available for sale and you can go buy one for a very reasonable cost.

If you want a modern RWD sports coupe that is built for performance at the same time as having the luxury comforts you expect in a $50k car, the M1 will probably be phenomenal. The M235 is already so fun to drive that it will be hard to make a more aggressive, more powerful version worse in any way.

I expect it will be an epic vehicle, and people can draw whatever comparisons they want because at the end of the day it will be faster, more efficient, and won't have a tape deck and a bunch of burnt out red LED's in the dash cluster.

Well said.

[JustChris]

Originally Posted by Cyberdemon

Auto journalists will always find something to wax nostalgic about and complain about. They'll complain they miss the high revving NA I6 but not appreciate the fact that they have a ton of low end torque and a gearbox that can deliver 30mpg.

The steering will never be as good, ever. They drove hydraulic steering once and it was the bees knees. They could feel every grain of salt that they drove over, and it improved their driving skills ten-fold. The car is also too heavy...even though the E46 with some real world options could hit 3500 lbs.

Also, the tape deck was awesome, fuel economy doesn't matter because it's a race car and gas is $1.29 a gallon, and George Bush is still president.

At the end of the day if you love the E46, or E30, or E90 etc they are still available for sale and you can go buy one for a very reasonable cost.

If you want a modern RWD sports coupe that is built for performance at the same time as having the luxury comforts you expect in a $50k car, the M1 will probably be phenomenal. The M235 is already so fun to drive that it will be hard to make a more aggressive, more powerful version worse in any way.

I expect it will be an epic vehicle, and people can draw whatever comparisons they want because at the end of the day it will be faster, more efficient, and won't have a tape deck and a bunch of burnt out red LED's in the dash cluster.

BOOM! Haters fall back in line.

[IEDEI]

Originally Posted by ///Mobbin

I see what you're saying and I think that's a fair assessment. Interestingly, I test drove both the M4 and m235i somewhat recently and felt as though the m235i was more connected to the road. I felt like I could sense the placement of the front tires a little better than in the M4. Then I definitely got that modern chassis/steering feel at the same time, which doesn't necessarily bother me. But I did appreciate the extra steering-feel/road-connection that I felt over the M4. Is this just due to the shorter wheelbase, shorter track widths, and overall more compact packaging? I think that is part of what I appreciate about the e46 m3, granted the hydraulic steering can never be replicated. I also think that sense of where the rear tires are at is somewhat lost in the new platforms (both the M4 and the m235i) but I'm not sure why. This is also just based on my limited time behind the wheel so perhaps my opinion will change with some more seat time.

well I am disturbed by this because I really did not enjoy the M235 I drove. I have not driven the new M3/M4 but will sometime to see how it is....if it is more disconnected than the already disconnected M235 then I will be even more disappointed. What a shame.

[OG///M]

Originally Posted by Cyberdemon

Auto journalists will always find something to wax nostalgic about and complain about. They'll complain they miss the high revving NA I6 but not appreciate the fact that they have a ton of low end torque and a gearbox that can deliver 30mpg.

The steering will never be as good, ever. They drove hydraulic steering once and it was the bees knees. They could feel every grain of salt that they drove over, and it improved their driving skills ten-fold. The car is also too heavy...even though the E46 with some real world options could hit 3500 lbs.

Also, the tape deck was awesome, fuel economy doesn't matter because it's a race car and gas is $1.29 a gallon, and George Bush is still president.

At the end of the day if you love the E46, or E30, or E90 etc they are still available for sale and you can go buy one for a very reasonable cost.

If you want a modern RWD sports coupe that is built for performance at the same time as having the luxury comforts you expect in a $50k car, the M1 will probably be phenomenal. The M235 is already so fun to drive that it will be hard to make a more aggressive, more powerful version worse in any way.

I expect it will be an epic vehicle, and people can draw whatever comparisons they want because at the end of the day it will be faster, more efficient, and won't have a tape deck and a bunch of burnt out red LED's in the dash cluster.

Well said!! The truth is its all subjective. Personally I think the electric steering on the new M cars has better feel than the hydraulics of yore, plus everything else is a big step up from before. When the M2 comes out I speculate it will be as good as the 1M if not better in almost every way and it doesn't matter if it's going to be limited or not.

[///Mobbin]

Originally Posted by IEDEI

well I am disturbed by this because I really did not enjoy the M235 I drove. I have not driven the new M3/M4 but will sometime to see how it is....if it is more disconnected than the already disconnected M235 then I will be even more disappointed. What a shame.

Just to clarify my thinking. Though my personal impression is that the M3/M4 is more disconnected from the road than I expected, I do think that by combining the M3/M4 suspension components with the m235i chassis, the end result will be the best iteration of all of those parts (in terms of handling dynamics, road feel, etc.). Hence I think, as most of us do, that the M2 stands to be the most connected car in the current BMW lineup (which is why I have a deposit on one).

[///Mobbin]

Originally Posted by Cyberdemon

Auto journalists will always find something to wax nostalgic about and complain about. They'll complain they miss the high revving NA I6 but not appreciate the fact that they have a ton of low end torque and a gearbox that can deliver 30mpg.

The steering will never be as good, ever. They drove hydraulic steering once and it was the bees knees. They could feel every grain of salt that they drove over, and it improved their driving skills ten-fold. The car is also too heavy...even though the E46 with some real world options could hit 3500 lbs.

Also, the tape deck was awesome, fuel economy doesn't matter because it's a race car and gas is $1.29 a gallon, and George Bush is still president.

At the end of the day if you love the E46, or E30, or E90 etc they are still available for sale and you can go buy one for a very reasonable cost.

If you want a modern RWD sports coupe that is built for performance at the same time as having the luxury comforts you expect in a $50k car, the M1 will probably be phenomenal. The M235 is already so fun to drive that it will be hard to make a more aggressive, more powerful version worse in any way.

I expect it will be an epic vehicle, and people can draw whatever comparisons they want because at the end of the day it will be faster, more efficient, and won't have a tape deck and a bunch of burnt out red LED's in the dash cluster.

I also wanted to point out 3 benefits of the "modern" BMW M's that I think make them so desirable from a combined use DD and occasional-track-car perspective (the last of which you've already mentioned).

(1) They now have track-capable brakes!! They finally did it, thank you BMW!! Not only did they essentially give us big brakes as a standard item but they included the easy pad swapping features on both the front and rear calipers. This is really a home run for an occasional track enthusiast or even a die hard track junkie.

(2) They finally have track-capable cooling for the engine!! Granted this remains to be seen for the M2, but from anecdotal evidence from the masses of F8X M3/M4 owners and m235i owners, the cooling issues of the past have been resolved. (Not sure if this was an issue on every car, but I know folks have had issues keeping there oil and coolant temps in check.)

and

(3) Torque. Thanks to turbocharging we have engines that output significant low-end torque, which makes for more fun everyday driving (because you can experience the sensation of power at lower rpm's). Then the max torque numbers are also much higher, which can be quite useful on track.

[BMW269]

The M2 will be an M2, the M version of the 2 Series. All the rest is marketing bullshit.

[Cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by IEDEI

well I am disturbed by this because I really did not enjoy the M235 I drove. I have not driven the new M3/M4 but will sometime to see how it is....if it is more disconnected than the already disconnected M235 then I will be even more disappointed. What a shame.

IMO the F8x is too "connected" for a road car, at least in the Northeast where roads are shit. I test drove the M3 wanting to love everything about it and after driving it across the broken pavement and feeling every shock transmit into my spine it was not a good feeling. I felt like I was driving my friends Subaru that had put on the stiffest dampers, rigid bushing, and there was no reason why my ass needed that.

On a track - I'm sure it's phenomenal. And I'm sure on the warm roads of Florida, Cali or Texas it's epic. But I couldn't find myself willing to fork over the money for it which is a shame given how beautiful of a vehicle it is.

But all of those things are personal preference. Some people like having their fillings rattled out. And other people are happy to have a car that can still perform phenomenally at the limit but have enough shock damping to keep their kidneys from bleeding.

I expect that the M2 would not disappoint given how brutal the F8x M3 is, but there are plenty of haters on the F8x so haters gonna hate.

[IEDEI]

Originally Posted by Cyberdemon

IMO the F8x is too "connected" for a road car, at least in the Northeast where roads are shit. I test drove the M3 wanting to love everything about it and after driving it across the broken pavement and feeling every shock transmit into my spine it was not a good feeling. I felt like I was driving my friends Subaru that had put on the stiffest dampers, rigid bushing, and there was no reason why my ass needed that.

On a track - I'm sure it's phenomenal. And I'm sure on the warm roads of Florida, Cali or Texas it's epic. But I couldn't find myself willing to fork over the money for it which is a shame given how beautiful of a vehicle it is.

But all of those things are personal preference. Some people like having their fillings rattled out. And other people are happy to have a car that can still perform phenomenally at the limit but have enough shock damping to keep their kidneys from bleeding.

I expect that the M2 would not disappoint given how brutal the F8x M3 is, but there are plenty of haters on the F8x so haters gonna hate.

M cars are, in general, more harsh than their non-M counterparts. If you've ever driven an older M car you'd realise that the modern M cars have been steadily becoming more comfortable but are still much harsher than a non-M car. Worth the trade off for the real performance gains over non-M models, IMO.

[daveslaine]

Willing to bet the M2 will be extremely comfortable in its most comfortable setting. It's 2016 M2, not 2003 M3, the ride will be so comfortable and luxurious you might as well just be driving a 528. OK the highway, I can see the M2 being comfortable. Find a twisty road, and sport+ mode will tear sh!t up. I remember the E46, and it even that was comfortable, though a little stiff.

What I like about turbos is that the power comes on right away, there's no need to rev to recline to feel that nice torque, and they save gas. Na might be better for a slower car that's on a really twisty track, but turbos cars with low end torque and gas savings is what most young guys nowadays want.

[BMW269]

Originally Posted by daveslaine

Willing to bet the M2 will be extremely comfortable in its most comfortable setting. It's 2016 M2, not 2003 M3, the ride will be so comfortable and luxurious you might as well just be driving a 528. OK the highway, I can see the M2 being comfortable. Find a twisty road, and sport+ mode will tear sh!t up. I remember the E46, and it even that was comfortable, though a little stiff.

What I like about turbos is that the power comes on right away, there's no need to rev to recline to feel that nice torque, and they save gas. Na might be better for a slower car that's on a really twisty track, but turbos cars with low end torque and gas savings is what most young guys nowadays want.

Comfortable M2? Ok, I'll pass.

Seriously why? If M is too harsh, the customers can get the M235i, otherwise what is the purpose of it? Marketing? M2 CSL will then also be comfortable to please the S Class driver? I hope the M2 GTR will be like driving on a skateboard (minus body roll).

[M3 Number 86]

Originally Posted by daveslaine

Willing to bet the M2 will be extremely comfortable in its most comfortable setting. It's 2016 M2, not 2003 M3, the ride will be so comfortable and luxurious you might as well just be driving a 528. OK the highway, I can see the M2 being comfortable. Find a twisty road, and sport+ mode will tear sh!t up. I remember the E46, and it even that was comfortable, though a little stiff.

What I like about turbos is that the power comes on right away, there's no need to rev to recline to feel that nice torque, and they save gas. Na might be better for a slower car that's on a really twisty track, but turbos cars with low end torque and gas savings is what most young guys nowadays want.

I just can't stand the throttle response of turbos on a track.

That's my only gripe. I thought they got rid of turbo lag in the M4 which they clearly didn't.

And someone said cooling? Yeah right.

[vantagesc]

Originally Posted by Levi

Comfortable M2? Ok, I'll pass.

Seriously why? If M is too harsh, the customers can get the M235i, otherwise what is the purpose of it? Marketing? M2 CSL will then also be comfortable to please the S Class driver? I hope the M2 GTR will be like driving on a skateboard (minus body roll).

Because M cars are based on sedan cars, they will never be as dynamic as something built as a sports car from the ground up. Thus, M cars have to offer a combination of performance and everyday usability to make sense. Otherwise, better off getting a true sports car from the start.

Soft like an S-class is hyperbole. It will be nicely controlled. But it will not be as stiff as a purpose built track car either. You will still be able to take it on long trips.

Just my 2c. Many people don't know what they are asking for having not experienced a car made for the track that doesn't work on the street and is actually slower because it's losing contact with the road constantly.

[Purple88Gold]

NO

[BMW269]

Originally Posted by vantagesc

Because M cars are based on sedan cars, they will never be as dynamic as something built as a sports car from the ground up. Thus, M cars have to offer a combination of performance and everyday usability to make sense. Otherwise, better off getting a true sports car from the start.

Soft like an S-class is hyperbole. It will be nicely controlled. But it will not be as stiff as a purpose built track car either. You will still be able to take it on long trips.

Just my 2c. Many people don't know what they are asking for having not experienced a car made for the track that doesn't work on the street and is actually slower because it's losing contact with the road constantly.

Bold sentence: If everyone that says M2/M4>Cyaman/911, AMG/RS = Mercedes/Audi + Big Engine, and GT86/BRZ = Little Power = Not Sports Car could understand that.


I know what I am talking about and I know what I want. As I live in European city centres, I basically don't need a daily car, but a "toy" car, more like street legal track car. 911 GT3 is too much performance for me (and can't afford - not sure I want even if I could). Something practical like a 2 Series is perfect, but please no comfort that I in my age don't want/need yet.

How does is a track car losing contact compared to a street car (excluding wet road)?

[gtr]

Originally Posted by IEDEI

well I am disturbed by this because I really did not enjoy the M235 I drove. I have not driven the new M3/M4 but will sometime to see how it is....if it is more disconnected than the already disconnected M235 then I will be even more disappointed. What a shame.

The M3 does have an oversize footprint giving it the feel of a large car. The car does perform and from the subjective point of view I'm thinking the M2 will be the better driving car.

If you don't want to be disappointed you should look into the Cayman GT4. The GTS was impressive when I drove it at the Porsche World Roadshow and this car is going to be epic. I had a boxster spyder and RS this car will be like the child of those two cars which I was looking for all along!

As for this thread the M2 needs to be a ridged and more powerful E46CSL with improved hydraulic rack. That will be a huge selling feature going backwards much like the GT4 coming with a manual. Think about it BMW...