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      10-28-2019, 11:22 PM   #89
chris719
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Same shit happened when they opened the SC plant. People were all up in arms about some American rednecks building their BMWs. I've had 2 cars built in SC and they were every bit as good as the Dingolfing car I had. I have no doubt the cars out of Mexico will be up to BMW standards. If anything, the paint shop will be better since it's brand new... might actually get Individual colors unlike Leipzig.
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      10-29-2019, 05:25 AM   #90
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Its not where production happens. Its about how they control the quality.

I understand manufacturers are struggling to find a way to save their cost in order to compete against competitors in the market and i am happy to see such movement.

Just hoping that bmw keeps their QC as neat as is now if not better.
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      10-29-2019, 05:33 AM   #91
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And the OG M2 was aimed directly at China..
I'd not read that anywhere. I know that the 1 series sedan was aimed at that market for people that wanted the most affordable thing they could get their hands on with a BMW roundel on it. If you've got the money for an M car, my assumption was that market wanted the flashier model ... but again I've not seen any sources to back up that feeling ... if you have links to the M2 aimed at China market or sales figures that would be interesting to see.
This was directly from the mouths of M engineers and bosses during our ED of the M4GTS and M2 in May 2016. I have no literature.
Well they certainly missed the mark then since China isn't interested.
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      10-29-2019, 05:53 AM   #92
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Sorry if this has been covered before, but do we have a sense if the G87 will have a DCT option?
No DCT in any new BMWs. Whatever they produce of the f82, f83 m4 and f87 m2 will be the last BMW DCTs.
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      10-29-2019, 07:23 AM   #93
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It is very amusing to see the lack of objectivity and knowledge shown by some people

I work for an OEM with a global manufacturing footprint and the worst plants we have are in North America (US and CN), however, the plants from Mexico are consistently in the top 10, and weirdly enough, China plants are ranking higher in recent years.

This is not unique to specific OEMs, most see an improvement in terms of cost and quality, including suppliers.
+1...
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      10-29-2019, 08:38 AM   #94
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That sucks. No concerns about QC or getting a bad car, but I will absolutely not be buying one out of principle. Don't care how fast or nice these cars are. Very unfortunate.
???? I don't get your sentiment here.
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      10-29-2019, 09:17 AM   #95
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That sucks. No concerns about QC or getting a bad car, but I will absolutely not be buying one out of principle. Don't care how fast or nice these cars are. Very unfortunate.
And what principle is that?
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      10-29-2019, 09:25 AM   #96
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According to this maybe it doesnt matter much.

"There's very little done by live humans during final assembly compared to all other work that goes into building a modern car."
i'm sure you like getting paid fair wages for your job.

it also depends if you think creaks and rattles on a 60k car is something you care about.

yes the welding and painting is done by robots now, but all the bolt on stuff is still done by humans since thats still cheaper then having robots do it.

eh i could be wrong, but vw use to make there mk7 golf in mexico...now they moved their production back to germany for the mk8 golf
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      10-29-2019, 09:41 AM   #97
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That sucks. No concerns about QC or getting a bad car, but I will absolutely not be buying one out of principle. Don't care how fast or nice these cars are. Very unfortunate.
???? I don't get your sentiment here.
As I said before, principle. I think Mexicans are some of the hardest working people and I have nothing but respect. However, until Mexico starts buying cars on the same level as the US or China, I feel it's a sell-out move by BMW. They are just exploiting the Mexican economy to make money and will not pass on the savings to us. It's bogus for a premium German luxury car to be made there only to be exported elsewhere. At least here in the US, as an American, I can respect the Spartanburg plant's production because the very same people working on the car likely have one in their garage. It's acceptable to me because it's our people making these SUVs and we can be proud of it and drive one too. America is home of the SUV, and it can be argued that BMW wouldn't have even needed the Spartanburg facility had the X-series of SUVs not become so wildly popular here (and now elsewhere). But the Ultimate Driving Machine, aka the 2-series in particular, should continue being made in the homeland for no other reason than tradition and respect for heritage. I mean FFS, they just made the 2-series GC a FWD car!? This is just one step closer to becoming a total sell-out company that throws heritage and pride to the wind to make the cheapest product possible for profits and nothing more. I don't know what else I can say. I don't want my single-malt Scotch made in Mexico nor do I want my BMW.

I talked to a native Chicagoan recently who loves her city more than anything. However, she expressed her recent disgust over the fact that the ethnic burrows like Greek Town are slowly dying because people have lost sight of tradition and heritage and what it means to be proud of who you are and where you come from. It's okay to have a Greek Town or a China Town without feeling like you are being prejudice against others. Besides the horrible liberal economics of a big city, she blames the people for not respecting these individual cultures and instead going too far with diversity and inclusiveness to the point that it's ruining what made Chicago such a great city to begin with. I won't go any further on this topic as it's getting too political, but I just thought I'd share as an example of why it's important to respect the past even while heading into the future. I feel like it's the same thing going on here. Just sharing since you asked...
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      10-29-2019, 11:30 AM   #98
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I guess one could question why pay a premium for something that is made as cheaply as possible? I can't imagine savings are passed into customers. Feels bad to pay the same or more for a premium product that you know is now being made more cheaply.
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      10-29-2019, 11:37 AM   #99
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I feel it's a sell-out move by BMW. They are just exploiting the Mexican economy to make money and will not pass on the savings to us. It's bogus for a premium German luxury car to be made there only to be exported elsewhere.
As both a BMW owner and shareholder I'm torn by this...
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      10-29-2019, 11:41 AM   #100
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I guess one could question why pay a premium for something that is made as cheaply as possible? I can't imagine savings are passed into customers. Feels bad to pay the same or more for a premium product that you know is now being made more cheaply.
How is it wrong for a for-profit business to reduce production costs?
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      10-29-2019, 11:45 AM   #101
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That sucks. No concerns about QC or getting a bad car, but I will absolutely not be buying one out of principle. Don't care how fast or nice these cars are. Very unfortunate.
???? I don't get your sentiment here.
I feel it's a sell-out move by BMW. They are just exploiting the Mexican economy to make money and will not pass on the savings to us.
Reminds me how the 1 series was made FWD and cheaper made only to cost more than the previous RWD version
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      10-29-2019, 11:48 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by CP911 View Post
As I said before, principle. I think Mexicans are some of the hardest working people and I have nothing but respect. However, until Mexico starts buying cars on the same level as the US or China, I feel it's a sell-out move by BMW. They are just exploiting the Mexican economy to make money and will not pass on the savings to us. It's bogus for a premium German luxury car to be made there only to be exported elsewhere. At least here in the US, as an American, I can respect the Spartanburg plant's production because the very same people working on the car likely have one in their garage. It's acceptable to me because it's our people making these SUVs and we can be proud of it and drive one too. America is home of the SUV, and it can be argued that BMW wouldn't have even needed the Spartanburg facility had the X-series of SUVs not become so wildly popular here (and now elsewhere). But the Ultimate Driving Machine, aka the 2-series in particular, should continue being made in the homeland for no other reason than tradition and respect for heritage. I mean FFS, they just made the 2-series GC a FWD car!? This is just one step closer to becoming a total sell-out company that throws heritage and pride to the wind to make the cheapest product possible for profits and nothing more. I don't know what else I can say. I don't want my single-malt Scotch made in Mexico nor do I want my BMW.

I talked to a native Chicagoan recently who loves her city more than anything. However, she expressed her recent disgust over the fact that the ethnic burrows like Greek Town are slowly dying because people have lost sight of tradition and heritage and what it means to be proud of who you are and where you come from. It's okay to have a Greek Town or a China Town without feeling like you are being prejudice against others. Besides the horrible liberal economics of a big city, she blames the people for not respecting these individual cultures and instead going too far with diversity and inclusiveness to the point that it's ruining what made Chicago such a great city to begin with. I won't go any further on this topic as it's getting too political, but I just thought I'd share as an example of why it's important to respect the past even while heading into the future. I feel like it's the same thing going on here. Just sharing since you asked...
Thanks for sharing.
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      10-29-2019, 11:59 AM   #103
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in general...i doubt new car bmw buyers care where the car is made...most of them are leased. On the bright side it'll probably help with the resale value of the current M2..similar to what happened to the resale values of the mk6 gti's.

also the lower production costs might allow BMW to offer cheaper leases on new products as well. From a consumer and business stand point it makes sense. Also mexico has more free trade agreements with other countries then the US. so it probably didnt make sense to build them in the US thats currently engaged in tariff wars with the two biggest car markets.
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      10-29-2019, 12:52 PM   #104
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I guess one could question why pay a premium for something that is made as cheaply as possible? I can't imagine savings are passed into customers. Feels bad to pay the same or more for a premium product that you know is now being made more cheaply.
How is it wrong for a for-profit business to reduce production costs?
I did not say it's wrong.

I said it feels wrong to me to pay a premium for something that I know it's being made cheaply.
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      10-29-2019, 01:00 PM   #105
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I did not say it's wrong.

I said it feels wrong to me to pay a premium for something that I know it's being made cheaply.
Leaving aside the emotional charge of the word "cheaply", this is the definition of cost reduction, which is one of the cornerstones of capitalism and market economy. Are you by any chance a communist? They loved their planned production and Politburo-dictated salary and price controls.
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      10-29-2019, 02:18 PM   #106
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I did not say it's wrong.

I said it feels wrong to me to pay a premium for something that I know it's being made cheaply.
Leaving aside the emotional charge of the word "cheaply", this is the definition of cost reduction, which is one of the cornerstones of capitalism and market economy. Are you by any chance a communist? They loved their planned production and Politburo-dictated salary and price controls.
BMW should do what's in the best interest of their share holders. I'm not saying BMW shouldn't attempt to make as much money as they can. I don't work at BMW though nor am I an investor.

but in my interest as a potential customer, I don't like the idea of paying more for a premium German car that was made more cheaply with cheap labor outside of Germany. I have no obligation to feel like I'm getting fair value from a premium product manufactured with cheap labor, nor do I have an obligation to even be interested in the product.
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      10-29-2019, 03:59 PM   #107
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but in my interest as a potential customer, I don't like the idea of paying more for a premium German car that was made more cheaply with cheap labor outside of Germany. I have no obligation to feel like I'm getting fair value from a premium product manufactured with cheap labor, nor do I have an obligation to even be interested in the product.
In the same vein, no consumer product company has the obligation to be interested in satisfying the whims (see? I can also find emotionally charged words) of an individual customer. The basic goal of any such company is to sell as much product as possible for as much money as possible with as little cost as possible.

The critical fact that you are ignoring here is that BMW will not be able to sell as much of its product if it is not perceived by the majority of its potential customers as a premium product exceeding the qualities of similar products offered by the competitors. The company understands that while a few people pay attention to the country of the final assembly, it does not affect the general perception of the target customer population in a significant way. Just like it understands that the FWD drivetrain of its smaller cars does not affect that same perception. Your personal preferences simply do. not. matter. Find a few thousand other people who were going to buy a G42 in 2022 but now will not because it's not built in Germany - then you might have a case. But something tells me you won't succeed in that search.

Last edited by ynguldyn; 10-29-2019 at 04:19 PM..
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      10-29-2019, 04:22 PM   #108
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BMW should do what's in the best interest of their share holders. I'm not saying BMW shouldn't attempt to make as much money as they can. I don't work at BMW though nor am I an investor.

but in my interest as a potential customer, I don't like the idea of paying more for a premium German car that was made more cheaply with cheap labor outside of Germany. I have no obligation to feel like I'm getting fair value from a premium product manufactured with cheap labor, nor do I have an obligation to even be interested in the product.
Lower cost of manufacturing means they could potentially improve the product at the same end cost.

You're also paying for a German designed car, not a German built car. Would you think better of a Dodge Dart if it were made in Munich? It's still going to be a piece of crap even if it's made by Santa's elves. Personally, I don't care where my car is made as long as it's done ethically.
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      10-29-2019, 04:37 PM   #109
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BMW should do what's in the best interest of their share holders. I'm not saying BMW shouldn't attempt to make as much money as they can. I don't work at BMW though nor am I an investor.


but in my interest as a potential customer, I don't like the idea of paying more for a premium German car that was made more cheaply with cheap labor outside of Germany. I have no obligation to feel like I'm getting fair value from a premium product manufactured with cheap labor, nor do I have an obligation to even be interested in the product.
Lower cost of manufacturing means they could potentially improve the product at the same end cost.

You're also paying for a German designed car, not a German built car. Would you think better of a Dodge Dart if it were made in Munich? It's still going to be a piece of crap even if it's made by Santa's elves.
Disagree. Why did the guys from Harry's razors buy an old German factory during their start up and then advertise their razors are MADE IN Germany? They sure as hell didn't say their razors are German designed

How about our extensive set of Wusthof cutlery. German designed. Made in China I think not.

It doesn't even have to be about Germany. I can name numerous products where people would expect said product to be DESIGNED AND MANUFACTURED in country.

Sorry. It cheapens the product and not in good way.
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      10-29-2019, 04:39 PM   #110
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Having purchased a Mexican built VW Jetta for my daughter, I can speak with direct knowledge about endless mechanical and electrical and build quality issues, including:

--Complete transmission explosion and the need for a total replacement just 1,000 miles after the warranty expired
--Endless electrical issues
--Door lock failure
--Headlight failure
--Oil leaks at 12,000 miles
--Creaks, squeaks, moans and groans from day 1.

I am not alone. I have several friends who've owned Mexican built Golfs and Jettas with similar issues.

A German designed car, built in Mexico, with serious build quality issues.

Too bad BMW is heading in the same direction.
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