[5.M0NSTER]

Originally Posted by AlpsRider

I guess for me tires are regularly replaced so if I'm judging a car's performance I take that into consideration in a comparison. I think the reviewers could mention it.

I see your point, it's easy enough to get more grip. But it is a slippery slope. Change tires, and while you're at it dampers are right there, and camber plates, and why not sway bars and brake pads.

I've been there before. I went way down that rabbit whole wit my Mustang.

So I think stock for stock is the most objective comparison. If you know how to set up a car you can take those numbers with a grain of salt and decide how you want to proceed.

[AlpsRider]

Yes of course you're right about getting carried away with big changes in tire sizes and how it affects the rest of the suspension setup. I'm just hoping that the small change up to 255/275 won't be enough to have adverse affects with my M2C. 🤞

[Tag]

[AZ-Wildcat]

Good video!

[aerokubectl]

Originally Posted by Karmic Man

I don't have time to write a thesis on what variables are in effect here...

Tyres are clearly the limitation on the M2C here and non of the car mags I have seen bothered to change to better tyres. Well apart from autobild sportscars which tested a 6MT M2C with Cup 2 and was 2 seconds faster than a DCT M2C on Sachenring, though on different days.

In the video they

1. Didn't mention the condition of the tyres
2. Didn't state what pressure the tyres were on
3. Neglect to provide an opinion on why the Supra overtook the M2C towards the end

Wider tyres provide more lateral (cornering) grip so I don't understand why you are even trying to dispute that with bigger tyres the M2C will not be faster. The M2C only lost out in the 2nd last corner which is most likely the tyres going south because of over heating or worn out if they weren't fresh tyres in the fast place.

You don’t need to write a thesis, you could merely quote Pacejkas book on Tire Dynamics. Don’t worry, I still have a solid handle on Laplace transforms, vehicle dynamics and tire mechanics. Dont need to buy the book just link me the pages and the proofs and I’d be super thrilled to let my old colleagues know they’ve missed the silver bullet(max out tire width):

https://www.sciencedirect.com/book/9...hicle-dynamics

Lateral grip is influenced by literally dozens of tire properties that have zero relationship to tire width, but I can see why you single out a single variable, it makes complex observations, “simple”.

Here are just a few variables that we ran through EM simulations and modifies to improve limit handling.

- apex compound
- apex ending
- ply width
- ply compound
- ply angles
- breaker angles
- breaker material
- tread compound
- tread pattern
- bead compound
- bead design
- sidewall width
- sidewall ending location
- sidewall compound

Pls help me show my old colleagues that they’re noobs and they just need to increased tread width. Test data and math is worthless, let’s go based on feels.

[Karmic Man]

Originally Posted by spetsnazos

You don’t need to write a thesis, you could merely quote Pacejkas book on Tire Dynamics. Don’t worry, I still have a solid handle on Laplace transforms, vehicle dynamics and tire mechanics. Dont need to buy the book just link me the pages and the proofs and I’d be super thrilled to let my old colleagues know they’ve missed the silver bullet(max out tire width):

https://www.sciencedirect.com/book/9...hicle-dynamics

Lateral grip is influenced by literally dozens of tire properties that have zero relationship to tire width, but I can see why you single out a single variable, it makes complex observations, “simple”.

Here are just a few variables that we ran through EM simulations and modifies to improve limit handling.

- apex compound
- apex ending
- ply width
- ply compound
- ply angles
- breaker angles
- breaker material
- tread compound
- tread pattern
- bead compound
- bead design
- sidewall width
- sidewall ending location
- sidewall compound

Pls help me show my old colleagues that they’re noobs and they just need to increased tread width. Test data and math is worthless, let’s go based on feels.

Yawn...

It's the tyres, get it? No? Move on and write your own thesis on why the Supra is faster here

[Karmic Man]

Originally Posted by J5isalive

Why do you think they need to switch to 'better tires' for this review? Both cars come with the same tire, its a good test.

How often do you see reviewers state tire pressure and condition of the tire? LOL they dont because the average viewer doesnt care. You are grasping at straws here... of course the m2 would be faster on a cup 2, so would the supra.

They even stated the M2 was wonderful on the street... thats what matters here. The M2C is not a track car. Its a street car. In stock configuration the M2C is a shitty track car.

Tyres pressure and condition should be mentioned because of fidelity!

They are using the video to state the Supra is faster on the track so yes, I am interested in all the pertinent factors so no, I am not grasping at straws.

The tyres are of the same brand and model but different sizes so no, they don't have the same tyres.

People change tyres regularly because they are consumables so it's totally reasonable to ponder what's going to happen when the M2C has the same tyres (PSS 255/275) as the Supra since it's only one size up.

The M4 ZCP which is of similar weight (same peak torque of 550Nm) to the M2C runs F: 265/40 20, R: 285/30-20. That gives you some hint of what the optimum tyres size the M2C should be on.

Some people just look at the video and said yes the Supra overtook the M2C at the end so it's faster. I don't care who is faster but I am interested in the cause. Since the M2C was leading all the way up until it got pipped in the second last corner, I do believe those tyres on the M2C was holding it back much more than those on the Supra.

[aerokubectl]

Originally Posted by Karmic Man

Yawn...

It's the tyres, get it? No? Move on and write your own thesis on why the Supra is faster here

Can't write a thesis based on lack of data.

I prefer the scientific method and a bit of raw data to work with before I go around making claims about tires, suspension, cg, etc from a youtube video, but hey everyone has their preferred method.

[aerokubectl]

Originally Posted by Karmic Man

I don't care who is faster but I am interested in the cause. Since the M2C was leading all the way up until it got pipped in the second last corner, I do believe those tyres on the M2C was holding it back much more than those on the Supra.

Genuine Curiosity:
"I'm interested in the cause"

Random bold statement:
"I do believe those tyres on the M2c was holding it back"



This is an interesting take on the scientific method.

[giamo64]

M2C is ahead for most of the track and Supra wins for 0.3 seconds. This means that in 10 races half go to one and half to the other.

[Davil]

Originally Posted by J5isalive

Can't wait for someone to come in here and claim Randy cant drive because he didnt give the car a perfect review.

He is a brilliant driver unlike that buffoon you seem to love so much.

He also said there was something off with the brakes on the timed laps.

His own verdict.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/rand...vers-car-2019/

9. Toyota GR Supra
2020 Toyota GR Supra Launch Edition 62020 Toyota GR Supra Launch Edition 6
A true sports car. Quick beyond its power numbers, it responds directly to driver requests. Shock control is too soft for track work, but it's well controlled on the street. A fair amount of midcorner oversteer requires a light touch when tipping into the throttle. A bit of isolation in the steering.

4. BMW M2 Competition
2019 BMW M2 Competition 12019 BMW M2 Competition 1
There's harmony in the way the front and rear tires work together in a corner. This balance rewards the driver every time the wheel turns. Like whipping the flanks of a race horse, I caned the M2 around the circuit as it begged for more. This driver's car urges on the driver.

[Gary O]

He is a brilliant driver unlike that buffoon you seem to love so much.

He also said there was something off with the brakes on the timed laps.

Randy is a highly skilled driver and he is concerned about the brakes. My guess is that he started getting fade, and this caused the drop in lap time. A good driver will anticipate the problem and compensate. Just my 2 cents.
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/im...ilies/sigh.gif

[Karmic Man]

Originally Posted by spetsnazos

Genuine Curiosity:
"I'm interested in the cause"

Random bold statement:
"I do believe those tyres on the M2c was holding it back"



This is an interesting take on the scientific method.

I also drive an M2C with the exact same tyres and the car understeers when the front end had too much work

Anyone who track their M2C will know those stock tyres is the weakest link in the chain on the car and should be replaced with something larger or stickier or both.

My old 1M was running on 245/265 staggered PSS setup (initially PS2 but they were crap) and they were sufficient for the power and weight. The M2C is however at least 50kg heavier, with more power and torque and yet run the same tyres setup. One doesn't need to be Einstein to work out something has to give. Those 245/265 tyres got worked a lot harder than the 255/275 on the Supra so performance dropped faster.

Nothing you have mentioned previously discuss the dynamics of the M2C but instead trying to counter argue with some motherhood statements. Of course other variables would be at play (like may be the gravity of the moon was pulling on Randy's butt cheek at the time on the M2C and affected his braking on/off reaction time?) but from the video we can easily deduce that tyres were the primary factor given the M2C lost out at the tightest corner towards the end of the time attack. If the dynamics of the Supra were indeed superior than the Supra would have got the lead way before the aforementioned corner.

Data is important but here all we need is a simply judgement call.

[bri1042]

Randy provides his answers this whole tire question pretty much completely in this video:

Not a single BMW to be found in this video, but watch through to the track test section to get to the relevant points.

...not trying to stir the pot here, just thought that this added some fun info from Randy to the chat.

[Tag]

Toyota has unveiled the 2021 Supra with more power and returned chassis. It appears that it now gets the same B58M30O1 engine that's shared with the Z4 M40i, M340i, and X3/4 M40i which puts out 382hp, an increase of 47hp over the 2020 model. Will be interesting to see the head to head between the M2C and 2021 Supra.

More Power. Because, Why Not?

The 2020 Toyota GR Supra brought the revered model back in a blaze of speed, with acceleration and handling performance that outshone even its illustrious A80 predecessor. For 2021, Toyota is keeping the pedal down, boosting output of the Supra’s turbocharged 3.0-liter inline-six from 335 hp at 5,000-6,500 rpm to 382 hp at 5,800-6,500 rpm, a 14-percent increase. Torque rises from 365 lb.-ft. at 1,600-4,500 rpm to 368 lb.-ft. at 1,800-5,000 rpm.

The increased output results from a slew of upgrades throughout the engine. The new dual-branch exhaust manifold, with six ports instead of two, improves heat management. A new piston design reduces the engine’s compression ratio from 11:1 to 10.2:1.

The greatly revised engine produces higher torque at higher rpm and retains the eagerness to rev with turbine-like smoothness. Toyota projects that the new engine will reduce the Supra 3.0 model’s 0-60 acceleration time to 3.9 seconds, from 4.1. The 8-speed automatic transmission with paddle shifters carries over for 2021.

Retuned Chassis for Supra 3.0

The 2020 GR Supra won praise for its ride/handling balance, but even the exceptional can be improved. Seeking increased roll resistance and enhanced cornering stability, Toyota retuned the Supra 3.0 chassis, adding lightweight aluminum braces that tie the strut towers to the radiator support to increase lateral rigidity, along with front and rear bump stops and new damper tuning. Revised programming for the electric power steering (EPS), Adaptive Variable Suspension (AVS), Vehicle Stability Control (VSC) and Active Differential works in concert with the hardware changes to make the 2021 Supra more stable through quick transitions, such as compound turns.

Source: Toyota GR Supra Races Into 2021 with More Power and First-Ever Four-Cylinder Turbo Model

[AlpsRider]

It will kick a**. Nearly stock M2C horsepower and bigger tires, I bet that the 2020 Supra buyers are gathering their pitch forks for the revolt.

[Moflow]

Originally Posted by AlpsRider

It will kick a**. Nearly sock M2C horsepower and bigger tires, I bet that the 2020 Supra buyers are gathering their pitch forks for the revolt.

Yeah, that thing is going to be fast. Should stomp an M2C as last year's was neck and neck, even in a straight line.

[GerryM5]

Who cares.

[Tag]

Originally Posted by GerryM5

Who cares.

Me, other M owners, those cross shopping the M2C, future potential G87 M2 owners (unknown if G87 gets the S58 or the B58 engine), automotive journalists, modders, video game designers, YouTube influencers, general automotive enthusiasts, midlife crises divorce, pimple faced teens, but not you.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by AlpsRider

It will kick a**. Nearly stock M2C horsepower and bigger tires, I bet that the 2020 Supra buyers are gathering their pitch forks for the revolt.

If it actually has more power. The current one has about what the new one claims. It would be a major disappointment if it were just a “correction”.

[AlpsRider]

Originally Posted by chris719

If it actually has more power. The current one has about what the new one claims. It would be a major disappointment if it were just a “correction”.

Yeah, I read that their horsepower claims were very conservative. It will be interesting to see if the new version is also.

[ROBM2C]

I hate that video , burn it .