[flybigjet]

Seriously leaning towards getting TC Kline single (front) & (double) rear coilovers w/ 300/600 springs. Camber plates come with the kit, and I'll be looking for no more than a 15-20mm drop (for aesthetics and to compensate for the smaller diameter of 30-series rubber).

I'll be pairing them with Apex EC-7 Apex wheels (19x9.5f ET28, 19x10.5r ET45) and Michelin MP4S tires (265/30/19 & 295/30/19). Since the TCK's don't have conical front springs, the tire combo shouldn't rub. I think.

I'm not particularly savvy on the minutae of suspension setup, so would like to know if there's anything else I really need to upgrade/replace when I bring the car in to have the work done?

This will be for a 95% STREET setup, and I have *no* desire to add unnecessary NVH/noise to the car.

A quick search of the forums & vendors leads to mono balls, control arm bearings, camber shim kits, toe-link kits, end-links, sway bars, heffalumps, woozels and a whole raft of other things that I'm only superficially familiar with. I could spend a ton of money on things that might be completely useless, be very similar to what's already on the M2C, or might not even be needed unless you're a track junkie.

Is there anything that *really* needs to be upgraded when I put the TCK's on?

Additionally, is corner balancing is required/desired on a street car with a minor 15-20 mm drop? And if so, do I need adjustable front/rear sway bar end-links to make it happen? Maybe this is overkill for a street car?

Suggestions? Comments? Wisdom from experience?

Trying to put my parts/shopping list together before I order everything. And money is getting tight as The Wife is seriously considering cutting my car-related financial expenditures off for a long while.

TIA--

R.

[mcvaughan]

Avoid camber plates if you don't want NVH.

[flybigjet]

Originally Posted by mcvaughan

Avoid camber plates if you don't want NVH.

Unfortunately, they're part of the TCK kit, so no real choice there.

[Matt Devo]

Originally Posted by flybigjet

Unfortunately, they're part of the TCK kit, so no real choice there.

I'm not sure how, based on your other posts, you ended up on the TCK kit as the ideal solution for a purely street-driven car. Camber plates are absolutely unnecessary (unless your trying to shove a wheel/tire combo in that doesn't fit).

[flybigjet]

Originally Posted by Matt Devo

I'm not sure how, based on your other posts, you ended up on the TCK kit as the ideal solution for a purely street-driven car. Camber plates are absolutely unnecessary (unless your trying to shove a wheel/tire combo in that doesn't fit).

The TCK has an excellent reputation and after reading TC's reply to my inquiry, it seems to be a good choice-- price is on par w/ the MP-suspension.

The biggie for me is that I'm going to run 265/295 tires on wider rims-- I'm having trouble getting power to the ground (~550hp/565tq), so some suspension adjustment is required (honestly, if I'd known how much I'd be getting into here, I'd have probably left the car bone stock).

The TCK have springs very similar to the stock setup, so the front wheel/tire will work without a 5mm spacer and camber adjustment. The MP-suspension has a spherical spring which limits clearance on the tire.

Optimally, I'd just get the MP-suspension, but that damn front spring is causing me all sorts of problems. I'm reasonably opposed to running a spacer in the front as I don't think I'll like the look of pushing the wheel out an additional 5mm. And then, I think I need to adjust camber, which drives me to plates. And then you get into aesthetics as the front wheel is pushed out and the rear isn't.

It's starting to feel like "Chicken and Egg" to me. If I do this, I have to do that. If I do that, I have to do this.

The 265/295 will fit fine, but then I have extended wheel gap (which is large enough to irritate me already), and I'd really like to get a bit more ride compliance at lower speeds-- the roads in Denver aren't the greatest. But as soon as I go with a slight lowering (15-20mm), the wheels become problematic unless I use a spring similar to stock and camber plates.

At least that's how it's been explained to my by the guys at Apex and TC and my reading here on the forum.

It's sort of a circular argument.

Sigh. Very frustrating.

EDIT: I wish I could do the MP-suspension, with 265/295's on OEM wheels-- but they're too narrow. If I could get away with a 255/275-35 combination with the MP-suspension, I'd do that-- BUT I don't think that'll help my power transfer problems (even w/ MP4S, and I don't want to put Cup2's on a DD), so I'd essentially be back where I am.

I'm COMPLETELY open to suggestions.

[PLF69]

There not much you can do with trying to have those 550whp stick. It's a lot of power for a RWD daily driver, my 135i had the same power and I just lived with the fact that 1-2 and half of 3gear were useless.

- stickier tires

- wider less sticky tires


You've trough the rapid hole my friend

[flybigjet]

Originally Posted by PLF69

There not much you can do with trying to have those 550whp stick. It's a lot of power for a RWD daily driver, my 135i had the same power and I just lived with the fact that 1-2 and half of 3gear were useless.

- stickier tires

- wider less sticky tires


You've trough the rapid hole my friend

Tell me about it-- there's a LOT of rabbits around here!

From what I've read (and this is all WAY too expensive to test casually)--

1. I need to go wider on the rear tires. And due to the staggered fitment, I have to go wider on the fronts as well. Stock is 245/265-35. 255/275-35 won't appreciably increase tire width, but will increase tire height-- which is a problem on the front shroud of the M2C. 265/285-30 would work, but MP4S's don't come in 285. So, the "approved" fit is 265/295-30-- it changes the staggered ratio from 20 to 30, but everything stays within acceptable tolerances, with the price being slightly more understeer. That should give me a larger contact patch and better compound with the MP4S's.

2. 265/295 is non-optimal on the stock rims due to width (although some have done it here). That implies wider wheels. Wheels with the proper fitment and aesthetics are tough to find for the M2C at a reasonable pricepoint ($10,000 for wheels? Really?). I keep coming back to the Apex EC-7's in 19x9.5f ET28 @22.65 lbs, 19x10.5r ET45 @ 23.4 lbs. They're 2-3 lbs. lighter than stock, so that'll offset the weight of the larger tires. Fitment is perfect for the M2C, and they're affordable. They "poke" the wheels/tires out about 10mm front & rear, providing a near-flush look.

3. If I lower the M2C using the MP-Suspension by even a moderate amount (~1/2-3/4" or 15-20mm), the conical spring BMW uses (and Litchfield, for that matter) will interfere with the front tire. So, Apex's answer is to use a 5mm spacer and camber adjustment. It's unknown whether sufficient camber (~2 degrees) can be achieved without camber plates, but it's suspected not-- I believe max camber without plates runs about 1.6 or so. I'm opposed to the 5mm spacer from an aesthetic point of view if nothing else-- It'll "poke" out a fair bit, and they you'll have to visibly "tilt" the wheel with camber to clear the fender at the top.

4. That brings me to the TCK suspension. Since it doesn't use a conical spring, the wheel/tire combination will fit-- but camber plates are required with that set-up. Additionally, while the MP-Suspension gets rave reviews from the "mostly street" crowd, TCK gets rave reviews from the "mostly track" crowd. Is it as comfortable and effective on the street? Unknown. Does it have NVH issues in comparison to the MP-Suspension kit? Unknown.

5. If I could wave my magic wand and make it work, my first choice would be stock wheels, 255/275-35 tires and the MP-Suspension. But I think I'd end up with the exact same power issues and the front tire would likely rub with the drop.

My second choice would be stock wheels, 265/295-30 tires and the MP-Suspension-- but the rubber is simply too wide for the stock wheel.

My final choice would be the Apex wheels, 265-295-30 tires and the MP-Suspension-- but I'm not willing to accept the "poke" required with the 5mm front spacer.

Which leaves me to consider a suspension that doesn't use a conical spring. Of those, the TCK seems the best of the bunch. The only other option would be to use lowering springs. And that's a "no" for a whole bunch of reasons (degradation in ride quality, shocks not designed with, excessive drop, etc.)

So now, I'm considering the Apex wheels, 265/295-30 MP4S tires, and the TCK setup. I don't see any other way to get to where I want to be. It's frustrating to be sure.

What I really need is an honest comparison between the MP-Suspension and the TCK setup for street use. How does it ride? How does it sound? What are the tradeoff's/drawbacks?

But that doesn't exist, or if it does, I haven't been able to find it.

R.

[chief1richard]

Originally Posted by flybigjet

The TCK has an excellent reputation and after reading TC's reply to my inquiry, it seems to be a good choice-- price is on par w/ the MP-suspension.

The biggie for me is that I'm going to run 265/295 tires on wider rims-- I'm having trouble getting power to the ground (~550hp/565tq), so some suspension adjustment is required (honestly, if I'd known how much I'd be getting into here, I'd have probably left the car bone stock).

The TCK have springs very similar to the stock setup, so the front wheel/tire will work without a 5mm spacer and camber adjustment. The MP-suspension has a spherical spring which limits clearance on the tire.

Optimally, I'd just get the MP-suspension, but that damn front spring is causing me all sorts of problems. I'm reasonably opposed to running a spacer in the front as I don't think I'll like the look of pushing the wheel out an additional 5mm. And then, I think I need to adjust camber, which drives me to plates. And then you get into aesthetics as the front wheel is pushed out and the rear isn't.

It's starting to feel like "Chicken and Egg" to me. If I do this, I have to do that. If I do that, I have to do this.

The 265/295 will fit fine, but then I have extended wheel gap (which is large enough to irritate me already), and I'd really like to get a bit more ride compliance at lower speeds-- the roads in Denver aren't the greatest. But as soon as I go with a slight lowering (15-20mm), the wheels become problematic unless I use a spring similar to stock and camber plates.

At least that's how it's been explained to my by the guys at Apex and TC and my reading here on the forum.

It's sort of a circular argument.

Sigh. Very frustrating.

EDIT: I wish I could do the MP-suspension, with 265/295's on OEM wheels-- but they're too narrow. If I could get away with a 255/275-35 combination with the MP-suspension, I'd do that-- BUT I don't think that'll help my power transfer problems (even w/ MP4S, and I don't want to put Cup2's on a DD), so I'd essentially be back where I am.

I'm COMPLETELY open to suggestions.

After reading your posts, it sounds like whats been going on in my head for the last couple of weeks. MPS, KWV, Monoballs, SPL, Turner, Ohlins, etc. In the end I decided to spend the extra money on the suspension and will Order the Ohlins BMS MR40 RTR from 3DM Motorsports, with Vorshlag Camber Plates. My one concern is getting 265/3518 tires in the front, which is why I canceled my MPS order. I do not want Spacers on the Track. Worst case is 255/35/18, which has worked fine for me.

[PLF69]

Originally Posted by chief1richard

After reading your posts, it sounds like whats been going on in my head for the last couple of weeks. MPS, KWV, Monoballs, SPL, Turner, Ohlins, etc. In the end I decided to spend the extra money on the suspension and will Order the Ohlins BMS MR40 RTR from 3DM Motorsports, with Vorshlag Camber Plates. My one concern is getting 265/3518 tires in the front, which is why I canceled my MPS order. I do not want Spacers on the Track. Worst case is 255/35/18, which has worked fine for me.

Keep us posted about the fit of 265/35-18 in the front with your wheel setup. On

[PLF69]

flybigjet

If I were you I would try 265/30-19 in the front first on stock suspension and oem wheels, try to find used tires or a shop that is ready to do the test fit or another member that as done it. The 265-295/30 combo does fit the stock wheels, you said you don't want poke but a little compromise there could save you a lot of headache. What I hate is tire larger than the fender.

Worst case scenario is you have to use a small spacer up front to clear the suspension. these size 30 series tires are not much skinnier than the oem size.

From there you can decide and go further if you wish instead of ordering a bunch a parts that will radically change how the car feels (been there more than once) And bonus your wife will be happier lol

[flybigjet]

Originally Posted by PLF69

flybigjet

If I were you I would try 265/30-19 in the front first on stock suspension and oem wheels, try to find used tires or a shop that is ready to do the test fit or another member that as done it. The 265-295/30 combo does fit the stock wheels, you said you don't want poke but a little compromise there could save you a lot of headache. What I hate is tire larger than the fender.

Worst case scenario is you have to use a small spacer up front to clear the suspension. these size 30 series tires are not much skinnier than the oem size.

From there you can decide and go further if you wish instead of ordering a bunch a parts that will radically change how the car feels (been there more than once) And bonus your wife will be happier lol

I had that thought, but the 265 on the front is the max for a 9" wheel and the 295 is too wide for a 10" wheel. Can you do it? Sure-- if you don't mind stretching the tire waaaay out. But, from everything I've read, you start to run into pinch issues between the rim and tire itself. THAT.... makes me nervous. Especially when pushing the car in corners, around curves, in the twisties, etc. The penalty for failure could be..... high.

I've also had a few very interesting and illuminating email conversations with TCK himself, and I'm pretty much sold. I just need to talk the wife into it. And considering that I have to sell her on wheels, tires, suspension AND installation/alignment- that might be a bit of a trick.

(especially since the car's in the shop right now getting fitted with a euro-spec front bumper and that I got a BavSound amp for Christmas).

[PLF69]

295 is perfectly fine for a 10inch wheels, F10 M5 came like that from the factory.

We have to take into account that BMW uses stretched tire on the M2 from factory. F80/82 came with 255-275.

BMW like to play with tire/wheel witdh to change the feel and handling characteristics of its models. When you verify what other manufacturers run on there sport cars as of tire and wheel you realize there is no true standard.

[flybigjet]

TCK responded to all of my questions. I'm sold as soon as I finish groveling to the wife.

He said:

1. Regarding the included camber plates: "There is some ambient noise increase from the front of the car. Very slight, but some hear it and some don’t. No harshness comes from them and they improve steering feel."
2. Regarding changing various other suspension bits and bobs (monoballs, bar-end links, etc.): "Don’t change anything. Not even the sway bars."
3. Regarding corner balancing/adjustable end-links: "No need to corner balance-- just properly install."
4. In comparison to the MPS kit: "We have a better ride and better handling than the MPS."

He also recommended the shop I bring my M2C to (Bimmerhaus in Broomfield, CO), saying that Bob Tunnel (the owner) is "excellent", and I can purchase from them or TCK itself. Since Bimmerhaus will be doing the install, that works out well.

So, pending Wife approval, I'll order wheels from Apex, tires from my local tire shop (they can do the mounting and that saves me on shipping and on having to buy another set of TPMS sensors) and the suspension/alignment from Bimmerhaus. The wheels are on backorder until March, so I'll just have all the pieces/parts waiting on them and once I get shipment confirmation, I'll make my appointment for installation.

It's nice that a very well respected suspension expert basically says "Good plan, and your local BMW shop is awesome" and takes the time to answer all of my questions. Since he has an M2C with his setup, I'm willing to take the chance.

And besides, waiting until March works well-- the car won't be drivable until mid Feb as I'm going to have to leave it in the garage and wait for the bumper paint to cure before I bring it in for PPF. Then, I can finish burning off the stock rubber, and Bob's your uncle.

[chief1richard]

Originally Posted by flybigjet

TCK responded to all of my questions. I'm sold as soon as I finish groveling to the wife.

He said:

1. Regarding the included camber plates: "There is some ambient noise increase from the front of the car. Very slight, but some hear it and some don’t. No harshness comes from them and they improve steering feel."
2. Regarding changing various other suspension bits and bobs (monoballs, bar-end links, etc.): "Don’t change anything. Not even the sway bars."
3. Regarding corner balancing/adjustable end-links: "No need to corner balance-- just properly install."
4. In comparison to the MPS kit: "We have a better ride and better handling than the MPS."

He also recommended the shop I bring my M2C to (Bimmerhaus in Broomfield, CO), saying that Bob Tunnel (the owner) is "excellent", and I can purchase from them or TCK itself. Since Bimmerhaus will be doing the install, that works out well.

So, pending Wife approval, I'll order wheels from Apex, tires from my local tire shop (they can do the mounting and that saves me on shipping and on having to buy another set of TPMS sensors) and the suspension/alignment from Bimmerhaus. The wheels are on backorder until March, so I'll just have all the pieces/parts waiting on them and once I get shipment confirmation, I'll make my appointment for installation.

It's nice that a very well respected suspension expert basically says "Good plan, and your local BMW shop is awesome" and takes the time to answer all of my questions. Since he has an M2C with his setup, I'm willing to take the chance.

And besides, waiting until March works well-- the car won't be drivable until mid Feb as I'm going to have to leave it in the garage and wait for the bumper paint to cure before I bring it in for PPF. Then, I can finish burning off the stock rubber, and Bob's your uncle.

I notice that their system comes with TCK or M2 Camber Plates. Can you choose which Plates you want? Couple of things with TCK Plates I noticed is they raise vehicle 1/8", and are only adjustable in increments, limiting adjustability.

[flybigjet]

Originally Posted by chief1richard

I notice that their system comes with TCK or M2 Camber Plates. Can you choose which Plates you want? Couple of things with TCK Plates I noticed is they raise vehicle 1/8", and are only adjustable in increments, limiting adjustability.

Not sure, but the kit seems to be for the f8X AND M2-- it's possible their different due to different strut braces? That's conjecture on my part.

Supposedly, the 1/8" isn't noticeable, and if you're adjusting the suspension height anyway, couldn't it be dialed out? I don't know the answer to that.

R.

[chief1richard]

Originally Posted by flybigjet

Not sure, but the kit seems to be for the f8X AND M2-- it's possible their different due to different strut braces? That's conjecture on my part.

Supposedly, the 1/8" isn't noticeable, and if you're adjusting the suspension height anyway, couldn't it be dialed out? I don't know the answer to that.

R.

The way I was reading it is you can choose which plates you want. I was actually talking to T C Kline myself a couple of hours ago. Good to know someone who answers the phone is the Owner. I like that their front spring is same diameter as OEM, and now I know what size tire I can fit to Front.

[flybigjet]

Originally Posted by chief1richard

I notice that their system comes with TCK or M2 Camber Plates. Can you choose which Plates you want? Couple of things with TCK Plates I noticed is they raise vehicle 1/8", and are only adjustable in increments, limiting adjustability.

The answer from The Master is: "Just one set of plates fit your M2C. The camber plate stack height is the same as stock, but in any case, the height is adjustable."

[Bee Pee]

OP,

I'd try 255/275 combo initially as it reads like your rear tyre width is driving yr front tyre choice which is where your unknowns are just now.

I run less rear camber than stock and with -1.5deg the benefit to traction is noticaeble w/o any downsides wrt car's handling balance when pushing on or on track.

I think the TCK's + a good alignment + 255/275 or 255/285 combo will get your car to hook up better...

My 2c, HTH BP