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      07-07-2021, 09:42 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeelToeShift View Post
Pobst also flat out said the GT4 was all around the better car.
Again, don't agree here. The GT4 is surely aimed at the track primarily, but as an owner can tell you its as compliant if not more so on the street than the CS. The GTS is aimed at the street which is why it is more comfortable.
I don't particularly care for turbo engines, so an NA engine will also put much more emotion and charm in a car than a boring and awful sounding turbo. The GT4 is as much fun at 20 mph as it is 120 mph. Unlike most here, I have actually driven both...

From Dan Prosser

"Even with its adaptive dampers set to their softest setting, the M2 CS rides firmly. It's always busy and taut, but never crashy. Even so and given the money you'd be spending, I would hope for the kind of sophisticated, absorbent damping you find only in the very best performance cars and only from time to time. You get it in GT Porsches, in certain Lamborghinis and, unexpectedly, in the 2012 Mercedes-AMG C63 Black Series as well. Those cars glide across a bumpy road as though on a pocket of compressed air, soaking up intrusions and levelling out compressions, but while keeping their bodies under firm control. I had anticipated something similar from the M2 CS, but instead found toughness and a lack of composure over bumps."
Like the BMW it (GT4) rides with a certain firmness that never quite turns uncomfortable, but its suspension does a better job of smothering poor surfaces while keeping the mass of the body in check."

Right there, the GT4 even is more compliant which is what I experienced driving them back to back. Porsche is the best in the business when it comes to suspension set up with rebound and dampening and has been this way since the 991 was introduced and they continue to evolve it and lead the pack, same as the do with PDK, their manual gearbox, the list goes on and on...
A lot of mid-engine cars have a more compliant ride compared to front engine cars. That still doesn't make the GT4 a more practical car or better daily driving "fun" car for most people's needs. You already know the design philosophy behind M cars is taking a daily driver and modifying it for the maximum performance. That's why the M2 sits in a different marketspace compared to the more narrow-focused GT4. Considering all the practical things you don't get in a GT4, the performance advantages should be much better than the M2CS... but they're not.

The ride quality in my R8 was very good, that still didn't make me want to use it as my only car / daily driver.
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      07-08-2021, 01:49 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by HeelToeShift View Post
Right there, the GT4 even is more compliant which is what I experienced driving them back to back. Porsche is the best in the business when it comes to suspension set up with rebound and dampening and has been this way since the 991 was introduced and they continue to evolve it and lead the pack, same as the do with PDK, their manual gearbox, the list goes on and on...
You'll never convince me and I'll never convince you. Isn't it just swell that we have such lovely choices to float our respective boats.
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      07-08-2021, 08:57 AM   #25
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I read that the other day and found it quite "annoying" to read. It sounded like some 8th grade paper on how to use Metaphors. I don't follow much Car&Driver but it popped up in my feed. A waste of 3 minutes...
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      07-08-2021, 11:11 AM   #26
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I like Red Delicious Apples.
I like Navel Oranges too, but you can't make a good pie out of oranges.
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      07-08-2021, 11:48 AM   #27
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you can't make a good pie out of oranges.
Gauntlet thrown.
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      07-08-2021, 11:58 AM   #28
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Quote:
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Gauntlet thrown.
Does it become a tart when citrus in thrown in? This is interesting.
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      07-08-2021, 01:00 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeelToeShift View Post
As far as practicality and speed go, a Panamera turbo is faster on the N'Ring than both cars (and a slew of super and hypercars to boot) yet it is a refined, full size luxury car - should we be taking anything away from the Cayman GTS or M2CS since they can't keep up with it? Absolutely not! Suspension and tires are so good this day in age combined with power can make even SUV's lap as fast a many sports cars (ie Cayenne turbo GT which is also faster than both of these cars on the N'Ring)
The Nurburgring North Loop is a very challenging track but also has some very fast sections that a high horsepower car gets an advantage despite having a handling disadvantage. And you are correct that todays tires allow big heavy cars & SUVs to corner almost as fast as smaller lighter ones but its the HP that gives the Panamera, Cayenne and other big cars the great Ring times.
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      07-08-2021, 04:40 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Davil View Post
You'll never convince me and I'll never convince you. Isn't it just swell that we have such lovely choices to float our respective boats.
And the former is totally OK. I do agree on the latter...great choices we have as consumers.
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      07-09-2021, 04:24 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by buckybadger View Post
Track focused vs. daily focused
GT4 is track focused. The GTS 4.0 (going by previous GTS) is very livable as a daily. I haven’t driven the GTS 4.0 but did drive the Spyder (topless GT4) and despite being a Porsche GT, I could also daily drive that.
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      07-09-2021, 04:37 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by c1pher View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by buckybadger View Post
Track focused vs. daily focused
GT4 is track focused. The GTS 4.0 (going by previous GTS) is very livable as a daily. I haven't driven the GTS 4.0 but did drive the Spyder (topless GT4) and despite being a Porsche GT, I could also daily drive that.
Assuming you mean the GTS 4.0 PDK? I can't possibly see enjoying driving a manual in two gears as an enjoyable daily experience - led to my hard pass.
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      07-09-2021, 05:59 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by medphysdave View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarJunkie View Post
Gauntlet thrown.
Does it become a tart when citrus in thrown in? This is interesting.
Yes. Tarts and Porsches. There is something in that for all of us.
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      07-09-2021, 07:49 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Jimjamz View Post
Assuming you mean the GTS 4.0 PDK? I can't possibly see enjoying driving a manual in two gears as an enjoyable daily experience - led to my hard pass.
I daily drive stick, sure if PDK makes it work for you. So it’s not a hard pass as you stated. Even the GT3 comes with PDK if you want.
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      07-09-2021, 08:45 AM   #35
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I daily drive stick, sure if PDK makes it work for you. So it’s not a hard pass as you stated. Even the GT3 comes with PDK if you want.
I also daily drive my GT4 when the weather is nice. Nothing but pure, sublime bliss. Honestly one of the best manual gearboxes in any car, bar none, and I definitely use all the gears. It sounds like most here have no experience with the GT4/Spyder or GTS models so I wouldn't expect them to understand how connected and how fun this car is to drive. IMO it's more fun than any turbo car I've owned or driven - and I've owned a ton of them (991.2S, Macan S, Macan GTS, , F80 M3, F82 M4, F90 M5C with 850 hp).
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      07-09-2021, 08:50 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeelToeShift View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by c1pher View Post
I daily drive stick, sure if PDK makes it work for you. So it's not a hard pass as you stated. Even the GT3 comes with PDK if you want.
I also daily drive my GT4 when the weather is nice. Nothing but pure, sublime bliss. Honestly one of the best manual gearboxes in any car, bar none, and I definitely use all the gears. It sounds like most here have no experience with the GT4/Spyder or GTS models so I wouldn't expect them to understand how connected and how fun this car is to drive. IMO it's more fun than any turbo car I've owned or driven - and I've owned a ton of them (991.2S, Macan S, Macan GTS, , F80 M3, F82 M4, F90 M5C with 850 hp).
Frustrating to hear then. Reviews I read suggested third and above weren't accessible on public roads so I gave up my allocation. Shouldn't trust journos… In Aus the GT4 and even the GTS were almost US40k higher so that made it easier to pass
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      07-09-2021, 09:05 AM   #37
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The big piece to this is honestly the engine. If I lived at sea level I might have considered the GT4 a bit more, but when you're driving consistently at 6000ft+ altitudes the output of the GT4 just isn't enough to justify the $100k price tag IMO. Once you account for the power loss the CS is up at least 150HP/TQ.

Finally, the tune of the CS is the best feeling turbo car i've ever driven. Mostly because it doesn't really feel like one. It feels closer to the power delivery of a 400-500HP LS to me, but with the ability to rev a bit more.
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      07-09-2021, 09:24 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimjamz View Post
Frustrating to hear then. Reviews I read suggested third and above weren't accessible on public roads so I gave up my allocation. Shouldn't trust journos… In Aus the GT4 and even the GTS were almost US40k higher so that made it easier to pass
I cannot express how much HYPERBOLE there was by most journalists on this which is not even an issue. Even when I was only revving to 4-5K rpm during break in, it never felt lacking due to gearing, and quite the opposite - this motor is VERY STRONG. It's tough because most of the people here have never even driven the new 4.0 engine and only parrot what they hear which couldn't be further from the truth. On top of that, there is so much to gush about the car, the gearing was about the only thing anyone could criticize by grasping at straws in an otherwise nearly perfect car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mchart View Post
The big piece to this is honestly the engine. If I lived at sea level I might have considered the GT4 a bit more, but when you're driving consistently at 6000ft+ altitudes the output of the GT4 just isn't enough to justify the $100k price tag IMO. Once you account for the power loss the CS is up at least 150HP/TQ.

Finally, the tune of the CS is the best feeling turbo car i've ever driven. Mostly because it doesn't really feel like one. It feels closer to the power delivery of a 400-500HP LS to me, but with the ability to rev a bit more.
I find this so funny because it was Porsche with the turbo 991.2 cars and Ferrari with the 488 where they tuned the engines to feel linear (and they do) and BMW finally caught on that the spiky power delivery of the early S55's was not great. I much prefer this. My 991.2 Carrera S felt like an NA motor, more so than any other turbo car I've driven and its pull to redline was better than any other turbo car too.

I totally understand being at elevation too...that's a shame. Realistically the M2CS makes about 20-25% more power than the GT4 given it is underrated.

Last edited by HeelToeShift; 07-09-2021 at 09:38 AM..
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      07-09-2021, 10:56 AM   #39
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Not to add fuel to the fire, but at a recent 1M meet, we had a guy there who had owned a GT4 and his 1M at the same time but couldn't keep both. He got rid of the GT4 because the tall gearing made it boring on the roads he drove on 95% of the time. His words.
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      07-09-2021, 11:59 AM   #40
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I have no experience with the GT4, but I did drive a 997 GT3 for a while. It was too good to fully appreciate 95% of the time. The 5% of the time when I was able to let it rip, it was amazing. You can call that a pro or a con. These high HP cars are so hard to appreciate on the street.

I feel like the CS does a pretty good job with the gearing and low end torque to make it still fun daily, but even the CS gets you in potential trouble with the law in 4 seconds.

Any track time or as a third car, I'd give the GT4 a hard look. The Cayman GTS just doesn't fit the bill for me in case I want more than 1 passenger, 2 sets of golf clubs or a full trip to the grocery store. Before kids, I daily drove a Viper GTS, so I get that any of these cars can be a daily.
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      07-09-2021, 08:01 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimjamz View Post
Frustrating to hear then. Reviews I read suggested third and above weren't accessible on public roads so I gave up my allocation. Shouldn't trust journos… In Aus the GT4 and even the GTS were almost US40k higher so that made it easier to pass
You know, it’s a bs complaint. Are the gears long? It all depends on your perspective. My Mustang had very similar gearing and no one ever complained about it in a review. It’s actually a benefit. Do you want to have to shift into 3rd before you hit 60? If you’re on the track, do you want to lose precious time, several hundred milliseconds each time, excessively shifting? Yes you can redline 2nd at 80 mph, but who the hell is redlining their engine every shift? You’re probably in 6th gear on the highway at that speed unless on the track.

It’s funny this is a complaint as Porsche uses very similar gearing on all manual transmissions. I believe the 992 manual is maybe a little shorter, but still about the same. I’ve never read a review where they complain about long gearing on the 992 manual.

But if it bothers you, the PDK is slightly shorter geared and you can put it in manual mode and shift that way.
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      07-09-2021, 09:24 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c1pher View Post
You know, it’s a bs complaint. Are the gears long? It all depends on your perspective. My Mustang had very similar gearing and no one ever complained about it in a review. It’s actually a benefit. Do you want to have to shift into 3rd before you hit 60? If you’re on the track, do you want to lose precious time, several hundred milliseconds each time, excessively shifting? Yes you can redline 2nd at 80 mph, but who the hell is redlining their engine every shift? You’re probably in 6th gear on the highway at that speed unless on the track.

It’s funny this is a complaint as Porsche uses very similar gearing on all manual transmissions. I believe the 992 manual is maybe a little shorter, but still about the same. I’ve never read a review where they complain about long gearing on the 992 manual.

But if it bothers you, the PDK is slightly shorter geared and you can put it in manual mode and shift that way.
Went on a drive with some folks and I followed a 718 GT4. I asked about the gearing and was told it's a non issue. I have to imagine the long second gear makes it pleasant to drive around in traffic. I drive the CS in 2nd gear quite frequently cruising along at 5500 rpm. Other times I poke around in 3rd gear. As with anything you get used to it and figure out how to keep things in the fun zone. I'm surprised we are still having CS vs GT4 debates.
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      07-09-2021, 11:29 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by medphysdave View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by c1pher View Post
You know, it's a bs complaint. Are the gears long? It all depends on your perspective. My Mustang had very similar gearing and no one ever complained about it in a review. It's actually a benefit. Do you want to have to shift into 3rd before you hit 60? If you're on the track, do you want to lose precious time, several hundred milliseconds each time, excessively shifting? Yes you can redline 2nd at 80 mph, but who the hell is redlining their engine every shift? You're probably in 6th gear on the highway at that speed unless on the track.

It's funny this is a complaint as Porsche uses very similar gearing on all manual transmissions. I believe the 992 manual is maybe a little shorter, but still about the same. I've never read a review where they complain about long gearing on the 992 manual.

But if it bothers you, the PDK is slightly shorter geared and you can put it in manual mode and shift that way.
Went on a drive with some folks and I followed a 718 GT4. I asked about the gearing and was told it's a non issue. I have to imagine the long second gear makes it pleasant to drive around in traffic. I drive the CS in 2nd gear quite frequently cruising along at 5500 rpm. Other times I poke around in 3rd gear. As with anything you get used to it and figure out how to keep things in the fun zone. I'm surprised we are still having CS vs GT4 debates.
Not really surprising we're having a discussion on GT4S vs M2 CS given the thread title

I'm very happy with the decision I made. I can imagine the P car fits the brief for many - and the CS really is perfect for me - I like the turbo engine, extra seats, boot storage and looks. I'll keep an eye out for a good P car next step - could be a 911 or more likely a cross turismo (up against the G81 Touring).
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      07-10-2021, 06:37 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimjamz View Post
Frustrating to hear then. Reviews I read suggested third and above weren't accessible on public roads so I gave up my allocation. Shouldn't trust journos… In Aus the GT4 and even the GTS were almost US40k higher so that made it easier to pass
There are a few owner reviews on here that ditched that car because of the gearing. To be honest I found my e36 318is more fun than my e36 M3 on public roads for actual driving fun rather than showing off. The thing I love about the CS is that it somehow manages to be fun even at lower speeds. That's some accomplishment considering how capable it is.
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