[psmalley92]

Hi all,

Long time Bimmerpost member and BMW enthusiast. I'm going to enter a whole new level of "nerd" with this post but I don't feel like enough people compare their new car on the old cars forum, if that makes any sense. It's easy to rave about a new purchase on the forum for the car you just bought!

Additionally, I think most enthusiast jump between these two brands multiple times in life.

Back story... I'm 28, fell in love with BMW at a young age, and then Porsche later on. Have owned many different BMW's including an E90 M3 ZCP Manual and most recently a F87 OG BMW M2 Manual. The last few years, I've watch to scratch the 911 itch but financially it was a pretty big leap. I was finally able to make that leap just a few days ago. I sold my M2 private party right here on Bimmerpost to a new Bimmerpost member, Alex. He is a great guy and I'm so happy I could sell him his first M car.

Below I will compare several different categories. If you've been on Bimmerpost a while, you saw me do this type of thing between my E90 M3 and my F87 M2.

Engine - 3.8L I6 Carrera S Engine vs 3.0L I6 N55 OG BMW M2 Engine This is actually a tough one in the sense that, for what the N55 IS, it is a GREAT engine. Also, given the price point of the 2 cars, the N55 is again, GREAT. This was one of my favorite parts of the M2. I've told many friends that I believe that BMW Turbo motors are better than Porsche non-sports car turbo motors (Macan, 2.0L in Boxster and Cayman etc). I'm a big believer in BMW turbo engines and drivetrain tuning and the N55b in the M2 was one of their best. BUT.... the 3.8... it's more special than I would have ever imagined. I had this preconceived notion that it would be gutless below 5k and sound like a tin can until redline... I literally couldn't have been more wrong. It makes really good torque and sounds intoxicating as early as 2k-2200 RPM. It shocked me. It also explains why Porsche enthusiast say that getting the S over the Base when it comes to the N/A 911's is worth the premium. But then again, for the price point, it should feel that special. And yes, it really does.

Chassis: As I said early, the M2 chassis is amazing and the car handles insanely good. It's honestly hard to upset that chassis with the stock drivetrain. For a front engine, rear drive set up... I don't know how much better a sub 60-65k car can be out of the box in 2020/2021. Of course the chassis of the 991.1 911 is one of the things its know for. A lot of people will say that the 991.1 is the first 911 that can defy physics in a lot of ways, and I understand what they mean. The rear engine, rear drive layout gives that car an instant motorsport feel and the level of mechanical grip the 991.1 chassis makes is other worldly. It's that good, and I haven't even got to push it much yet. Some of this comes just because of the layout, some of it comes because of the budget that was used to develop it, and some of it comes from how good Porsche is at dialing in a chassis. I also have a Macan S and overall Porsche products ride WAY better than BMW's of the last 10 years. BMW's tend to be over-sprung. Porsche's are some of the best riding cars on the road.

Infotainment My 911 has three generation old tech in it but if I'm comparing it to my 2011 BMW M3 iDrive, it's quite a bit worse. The BMW iDrive stuff starting around 2010 is the best in the segment. The F87 M2 has old tech by today's standards and its still light years ahead of the 2017 Macan S I have. I will miss iDrive a lot. BMW deserves praise for how good their infotainment is. The 911 isn't "bad" per say. It just feels like a second thought, which I'm sure it was.

Interior The E and F Series BMW interiors were pretty middle of the road in my opinion, I did like them but they weren't great. The latest BMW stuff is pretty spectacular from what I can tell. The Porsche interior starting in the 991.1 is very, very good. They took a huge leap forward from the 997 generation. The 992 generation 911 appears to be a pretty big step forward but I think it's a lot closer between the BMW and Porsche interiors in 2020, then it was in 2015.

Build Quality Interesting topic right here. I'm a little disappointed with the build quality of the 991.1. Although, it is several years old and age does not so good things to cars, I feel like my E90 M3 at 130k miles was still tighter than my 991.1 is. I'm sure this isn't the case for every car and the 991.1 isn't by any means "falling apart" but some people act like the Porsche build quality so just so much better. I would say mechanically, the Porsche products of the last 15 years seem to be a bit more robust and reliable, and maybe their fit and finish is a touch better but the for the premium you pay over the BMW products, I think BMW does really good here. Yes the actually materials in the M2 aren't as nice as the 911, but the way it was put together seems just as solid to me.

Final Thoughts These are both great brands, that build good cars. I hope BMW can figure out how to get back to building drivers cars, like Porsche continues to do. That's really the only thing keep them from competing with Porsche in the way that many enthusiast want them too. I don't care what anyone says but cars like the E39 M5, E60 M5, E90 M3, F80 M3, and F87 M2 hold their own again some of Porsche's best. They really do. Looking ahead, Porsche seems to be committed to what has made them great, where as BMW seems to be trying to figure out how committed they actually are too that. The F87 isn't necessary a car that I feel I will have to own again but cars like the E90 M3 are. So we'll see what BMW does over the next 5-7 years. Porsche on the other hand, they don't need to change a thing and I hope they continue. These 911's are truly special (as they should be given their price point). There is a reason people buy one, and then buy another, and another and another. They are addicting to drive and reward you each and everyday. My 911 reminds me a lot more of my E90 M3 than my F87 M2. Analog, N/A, drivers car with great inputs and seating position.

Thanks for reading!

PS. Sorry for any grammar or spelling errors. Wrote this pretty quickly.

[DroneandDone]

What kind of 911 did you get?

[psmalley92]

Originally Posted by DroneandDone

What kind of 911 did you get?

991.1 Carrera S manual

[Fined]

Nice write up. Congrats on the upgrade. I agree on most points regarding driving comparison between the N/A Carrera w/9a1 and OG F87 M2. I have not owned a 991.1, but do have a decent amount of seat time in them. I do have a 2011 Carrera GTS (PDK) and OG M2 6MT. One thing to note, depending on how you use the car you may not notice.. the M2 has a mechanical LSD and a regular Carrera does not (unless you have Sport PASM or the optional equipment for an LSD). That makes a difference. I'd definitely be wanting that along with a sport suspension of some kind whether factory or aftermarket.

My 997.2 is screwed together much much better than my M2 is. My 911 is 10 years old and has far fewer rattles than my 2017 M2. I do like the N55 for daily driving only very slightly over the 9a1. For pure driving enjoyment though, I agree the 9a1 is superior. The howl in the upper rev range is a bit addicting.

Unfortunately I never had the chance to try an M2 on the epic driving roads in NC (up near Grandfather Mtn and such).. I got very well acquainted with those roads in the 911 and would be interested in how the M2 compares.

[texasyeehaw]

Personally speaking, I believe bmw enthusiasts are really just performance car enthusiasts- bmw just happens to check so many boxes at the right price points. I absolutely love my M2 but a 911 is the holy grail for me. Glad to hear you "graduated". For the money, few if any cars can match what the m2 has to offer. But as you move up pricing tiers, Porsche definitely comes into play.

I was at a dealership where they quoted me ~100k for an m2 cs on the floor. I told the guy, for that money why wouldn't I just get a Porsche? He had nothing to say lol.

[bobert]

No pix?

[psmalley92]

Here it is

[psmalley92]

Originally Posted by Fined

Nice write up. Congrats on the upgrade. I agree on most points regarding driving comparison between the N/A Carrera w/9a1 and OG F87 M2. I have not owned a 991.1, but do have a decent amount of seat time in them. I do have a 2011 Carrera GTS (PDK) and OG M2 6MT. One thing to note, depending on how you use the car you may not notice.. the M2 has a mechanical LSD and a regular Carrera does not (unless you have Sport PASM or the optional equipment for an LSD). That makes a difference. I'd definitely be wanting that along with a sport suspension of some kind whether factory or aftermarket.

My 997.2 is screwed together much much better than my M2 is. My 911 is 10 years old and has far fewer rattles than my 2017 M2. I do like the N55 for daily driving only very slightly over the 9a1. For pure driving enjoyment though, I agree the 9a1 is superior. The howl in the upper rev range is a bit addicting.

Unfortunately I never had the chance to try an M2 on the epic driving roads in NC (up near Grandfather Mtn and such).. I got very well acquainted with those roads in the 911 and would be interested in how the M2 compares.

Thank you! That's a dream set up M2 and 997.2. You've done well!

[psmalley92]

Originally Posted by texasyeehaw

Personally speaking, I believe bmw enthusiasts are really just performance car enthusiasts- bmw just happens to check so many boxes at the right price points. I absolutely love my M2 but a 911 is the holy grail for me. Glad to hear you "graduated". For the money, few if any cars can match what the m2 has to offer. But as you move up pricing tiers, Porsche definitely comes into play.

I was at a dealership where they quoted me ~100k for an m2 cs on the floor. I told the guy, for that money why wouldn't I just get a Porsche? He had nothing to say lol.

I agree.

[bobert]

Originally Posted by psmalley92

Here it is

Nice.

[wjk_glynn]

Originally Posted by Fined

...I do have a 2011 Carrera GTS (PDK) and OG M2 6MT. One thing to note, depending on how you use the car you may not notice.. the M2 has a mechanical LSD and a regular Carrera does not (unless you have Sport PASM or the optional equipment for an LSD). That makes a difference. I'd definitely be wanting that along with a sport suspension of some kind whether factory or aftermarket.

I've a 997.2 C2S PDK, and I've been lurking for awhile as I'm thinking about getting an OG.

Any other comments about the driving dynamics between your 997.2 GTS and OG, brakes, etc.?

Thanks!

Karl.

[Fined]

Originally Posted by psmalley92

Thank you! That's a dream set up M2 and 997.2. You've done well!

I agree, it is. Thank you!

Originally Posted by wjk_glynn

I've a 997.2 C2S PDK, and I've been lurking for awhile as I'm thinking about getting an OG.

Any other comments about the driving dynamics between your 997.2 GTS and OG, brakes, etc.?

Thanks!

Karl.

Hi Karl. Always glad to see the information you share regarding 997.2 resources.

As far as the driving dynamics go between the two cars here is a summary, as I could go on about them at great length.

On the street the OG M2 loses very little to the 997.2 Carrera/S/GTS in terms of performance. If you're a stickler for the details of it (I am) you can detect that the M2 is a touch heavier when pushed. The M2 is way more playful as a daily driver due to the torque, less weight over the drive wheels, and a good bit less tire out back. This is fun, but it also means applying power on corner exit needs to be managed a good bit more carefully. In the 997.2 I can hit the apex and more or less mash the throttle without a great deal of concern that I'll overcome the available rear traction. Not so on the M2. For this reason I personally do not see much sense in having significantly more horsepower for the F87 chassis for a car that is used on the street primarily.

The M2 and 997.2 both have a tremendous sense of balance. Both have great turn in and a high degree of accuracy when placing the car. The only significant negative I can think of for driving dynamics on the M2 vs 997.2 is the steering feel. That was one thing that I did not like when I first got the car, now I do not notice until I'm pushing it pretty hard. Both cars may have relatively similar amounts of front grip but the M2 lack of steering feel robs confidence to push the car to its limits. Now I have a good sense of the chassis communication through the seat, but that important information from the front tires is mostly missing in comparison with the great steering of the 997.2. I once read in a car magazine review of the M2 front end requires simply having faith in the grip and committing instead of relying on your senses. I found this to be absolutely correct.

PSM from 10 years ago is way ahead of BMW traction control on my M2. When PSM intervenes it's much more transparent.

[wjk_glynn]

Thanks Fined, and interesting comment about PSM being better than MDM.

In the time honored tradition of no good deed goes unpunished...

Have you tracked both and if so, any comments on one vs the other in that scenario?

Thanks.

Karl.

[Fined]

wjk_glynn

Yes I have tracked both, but not at the same track yet.

What I've mentioned for the street driving differences is magnified on track. There are points that are different about how best to drive due to the weight distribution/engine placement. The 911 allows you to get back on the power earlier on corner exit, where the M2 needs a split second to be allowed to settle on its way out of the corner before getting back into the power, and as you do you need to roll into it more. I noticed this a good bit at the last corner for Spa Francorchamps.

On track those last 10ths are easier to squeeze out in the 997.2 because it is naturally aspirated so the power delivery is just that tiny bit more smooth, plus the steering is telling you a lot more, so instead of trusting you can instead feel out exactly where the traction limit is.

Depending on how your 911 is equipped it could be more well suited to be used on track out of the box. Since you have PDK then you likely have a 3rd radiator so you don't need extra cooling and in 911 is ready to go for lap after lap. The M2 being F/I does get a bit of heat soak and also with less tire in the rear I did find that I was able to get the rear tires feeling greasy sooner than I'd have been able to in the 911.

I enjoy driving the 911 more on track than the M2, but the M2 is a lot of fun and I was not upset that I didn't have my 911 when I was out there. I was a little shocked to have passed a 997.2 GTS like mine and never saw it again in my rearview. At the limit the 911 feels like a car that is more at home on track than the M2. It should, its on a chassis designed to only be a 911 and nothing else.

The same sort of things need to be addressed for each in terms of brakes.. pads and fluid at minimum. The M2 brakes just fine as far as I am concerned. I think I would address the M2 cooling with a different intercooler if I planned to run it as hard at the track as I do the 911. I am confident treating the 911 with a little bit less sympathy than the M2.. though this is mostly my perception/feeling and not based on some data yet. The 911 seems more robust to be "beat on"

[wjk_glynn]

Thanks Fined, very informative summary.

Karl.

[PresidentEvil]

I feel like every BMW owners next "step up" car is either a 911 or Cayman lol

personally I don't really like the newer generation Porsches(they are getting so big), I like the 911 997 or the 987 Cayman

[bobert]

Originally Posted by PresidentEvil

I feel like every BMW owners next "step up" car is either a 911 or Cayman lol

personally I don't really like the newer generation Porsches(they are getting so big), I like the 911 997 or the 987 Cayman

They really do seem to be the consistent "step up" - or at least the "next step." Got my M2, then thought, where do I go from here? And of course the answer was P-car (not as a replacement, but there has to be a next car).

The 992 is almost exactly the same size as the M2 - same width, about one inch longer - but I totally agree it's still too damn big.

[baege]

Originally Posted by bobert

They really do seem to be the consistent "step up" - or at least the "next step." Got my M2, then thought, where do I go from here? And of course the answer was P-car (not as a replacement, but there has to be a next car).

The 992 is almost exactly the same size as the M2 - same width, about one inch longer - but I totally agree it's still too damn big.

actually the 992 is 2.5 to 3 inches longer...which makes a perceptible difference

when I had a 981 Cayman S I test drove a 991.1 as a possible replacement, I found the larger size took away from my feeling of engagement with the car

I don't have that feeling with the M2C, it feels like its wrapped around you like the 981 did...

but I love the 991.1 S, what an engine and so beautiful, especially with those wheels!

[bobert]

Originally Posted by baege

actually the 992 is 2.5 to 3 inches longer...which makes a perceptible difference

when I had a 981 Cayman S I test drove a 991.1 as a possible replacement, I found the larger size took away from my feeling of engagement with the car

It depends which 992 model you're comparing to - it's < 2" if you compare to the base Carrera but, sure, the S is marginally longer so it's roughly 2" in that case. I don't see anywhere where it's 3" longer (though the GT3 RS will prob hit that difference). At any rate, we're splitting hairs - I don't feel a 2" difference in car length from behind the wheel (though I prefer smaller cars). I do, however, feel a 2" difference in width (though that's def not the case here). By any measure, the new 911 is too damn big (esp in length).

[baege]

Originally Posted by bobert

It depends which 992 model you're comparing to - it's < 2" if you compare to the base Carrera but, sure, the S is marginally longer so it's roughly 2" in that case. I don't see anywhere where it's 3" longer (though the GT3 RS will prob hit that difference). At any rate, we're splitting hairs - I don't feel a 2" difference in car length from behind the wheel (though I prefer smaller cars). I do, however, feel a 2" difference in width (though that's def not the case here). By any measure, the new 911 is too damn big (esp in length).

I agree width matters more than length

and seating position and visibility make a big difference

I had a c7 corvette (briefly!) which is roughly the same width as my M2 but it felt huge in a negative way in comparison!

[admranger]

Have you felt the lack of storage space since moving to the 991?

How is the NVH between the two. I haven't driven a 991 but I felt the M2 was quite a bit louder inside than I'd like for highway cruising. Curious if the 991 is more refined for my elderly sensitivities...

[Moflow]

I don't want to hear this man. Ever since i was a little kid, i've been rolling my eyes at the Porsche 911. It's the uncreative, boring choice that makes you look like all the worst 'rich guy' stereotypes.

The problem is that the older I get the more i understand why Porsche sticks to the same formula. And also how good that formula is. By my early thirties i had realized that at some point in my life, I am inevitably going to be "that old guy in the 911." This realization makes my inner child kick and scream and throw a temper tantrum. Meanwhile the adult part of my brain chimes in with "YEAH AND ALSO THEY'RE EXPENSIVE!" before finishing the thought with ".....but man they sure do seem nice.."

So i don't need your glowing review damnit! Old age will come for me eventually at which point i'll buy a 911 and think "Why the hell didn't i do this sooner?" but until then, i'm going to continue living my lie about 911s being boring, thank you very much.