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M2 Technical Topics > N55 Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust / Bolt-ons / Tuning > THE ULTIMATE Intercooler Thread - What to Look For Before Buying an FMIC

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      04-16-2020, 03:46 PM   #551
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Originally Posted by AmuroRay View Post
If it’s for track duty, the Evo 3 or the VRSF at the best options, because they are the biggest. I don’t know what specific brace you’re speaking about, but if it’s a chassis brace, you’ll be ok.
Not the chassis brace...but the structural brace in front of the radiator. The top portion can be seen through the grill(perhaps it is called a chassis brace??). Mishimoto would require us M2 folk to hack that up. Plastic is one thing, but that....
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      04-16-2020, 04:14 PM   #552
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Originally Posted by GerardzM View Post
Not the chassis brace...but the structural brace in front of the radiator. The top portion can be seen through the grill(perhaps it is called a chassis brace??). Mishimoto would require us M2 folk to hack that up. Plastic is one thing, but that....
The black thin brace that has to be removed, spaced, or cut with any large IC for the M2?

If that’s the only issue, Evo 3 it is. No one has been able to confirm this for the M2, yet.
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      04-16-2020, 04:37 PM   #553
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Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
The black thin brace that has to be removed, spaced, or cut with any large IC for the M2?

If that’s the only issue, Evo 3 it is. No one has been able to confirm this for the M2, yet.
Tub and fin are not as good at cooling as bar and plate.
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      04-16-2020, 04:58 PM   #554
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Originally Posted by AmuroRay View Post
Tub and fin are not as good at cooling as bar and plate.
Not this again. Way too many variables to make a blanket statement like that.

If both types are sized appropriately for a specific use, it takes longer for bar & plate to heat up and cool down than tube & fin. That’s good for highway passes and drag racing, not constant circuit racing.

That said, Evo2 needs to be bigger if you’re running a Stg 2 tuned car hard on track in the middle of summer, and is why some of the larger and heavier bar & plates can perform a little better.

But in general tube & fin is lighter and cools off quicker than bar & plate between corners. So, if the Evo3 is large enough, it’ll perform better than bar & plate on a circuit track.

Last edited by ZM2; 04-16-2020 at 05:33 PM..
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      04-17-2020, 12:11 AM   #555
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Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Not this again. Way too many variables to make a blanket statement like that.

If both types are sized appropriately for a specific use, it takes longer for bar & plate to heat up and cool down than tube & fin. That’s good for highway passes and drag racing, not constant circuit racing.

That said, Evo2 needs to be bigger if you’re running a tuned car in the middle of summer, and is why some of the larger and heavier bar & plates can perform a little better.

But in general tube & fin is lighter and cools off quicker than bar & plate between corners. So, if the Evo3 is large enough, it’ll perform better than bar & plate on a circuit track.

No, apparently the inherent design of a bar and plate means that it has less thermal capacity.



http://www.superstreetonline.com/how...p-intercooler/

Quote:

A key advantage of bar and plate is its extraordinary variety of fin designs on both sides of the cooler. Further, the height of the passages can be changed by using taller bars and fins, which dramatically expands the possibilities for the intercooler designer. A 3.5-inch thick core gets a 3.5-inch row of fins, not the 2.87 inches found in tube-and-fin designs.
Quote:
Bar And Plate
Wang had a more upbeat tone when it came to bar-and-plate construction. "Spearco pioneered bar-and-plate core design. True, the bar-and-plate design is a bit heavier than tube and fin, but this is actually advantageous.
"The core acts as a heat sink. Its ability to soak up more heat is especially useful in stop-and-go traffic. It keeps the charge relatively cool, then is able to dissipate the heat once the vehicle is in motion. Tube-and-fin units can't pull this off.

Last edited by AmuroRay; 04-17-2020 at 12:18 AM..
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      04-17-2020, 03:55 AM   #556
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
The black thin brace that has to be removed, spaced, or cut with any large IC for the M2?

If that’s the only issue, Evo 3 it is. No one has been able to confirm this for the M2, yet.
For the Wagner IC Evo 3 you need to cut the brace, see enclosed pdf. For this reason I can not use this IC, as my car has the oil cooler in that place
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      04-17-2020, 09:08 AM   #557
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmuroRay View Post
No, apparently the inherent design of a bar and plate means that it has less thermal capacity.



http://www.superstreetonline.com/how...p-intercooler/
You just confirmed what I said, are still missing the point, and are just regurgitating what other people say without discussing the pros/cons for your particular setup and use.

The extra thermal mass and weight of bar and plate is a two-edged sword.

Good: If it is already cool, it takes longer to heat up than tube fin. That’s an advantage if you’re doing a few highway passes, drag race, etc.

Bad: Once it gets hot it takes longer to cool off than tube fin. That’s a disadvantage any time you’re in a constant on/off heat generation scenario such as circuit racing. And a bar plate def performs worse in the kind of stop go traffic we have around here where you can sit still for 10min. Any cooled thermal mass in a bar plate will be long gone and then will perform worse than tube fin which will cool off much quicker once the car moves and air starts to flow.

If the Evo3 is large enough to dissipate heat for someone’s particular use, it will be better for circuit racing than bar plate, as it will cool off faster bn on/off WOT applications, albeit it is more expensive.

Last edited by ZM2; 04-17-2020 at 09:51 AM..
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      04-17-2020, 09:12 AM   #558
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Originally Posted by Peter_VIE View Post
For the Wagner IC Evo 3 you need to cut the brace, see enclosed pdf. For this reason I can not use this IC, as my car has the oil cooler in that place
Do you have a custom oil cooler?

The instructions say it’ll fit the F87.
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      04-17-2020, 10:29 AM   #559
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
You just confirmed what I said, are still missing the point, and are just regurgitating what other people say without discussing the pros/cons for your particular setup and use.

The extra thermal mass and weight of bar and plate is a two-edged sword.

Good: If it is already cool, it takes longer to heat up than tube fin. That’s an advantage if you’re doing a few highway passes, drag race, etc.

Bad: Once it gets hot it takes longer to cool off than tube fin. That’s a disadvantage any time you’re in a constant on/off heat generation scenario such as circuit racing. And a bar plate def performs worse in the kind of stop go traffic we have around here where you can sit still for 10min. Any cooled thermal mass in a bar plate will be long gone and then will perform worse than tube fin which will cool off much quicker once the car moves and air starts to flow.

If the Evo3 is large enough to dissipate heat for someone’s particular use, it will be better for circuit racing than bar plate, as it will be lighter and cool off faster bn on/off WOT applications, albeit more expensive.
I’m sorry man, but that’s just hype and marketing speak. Bar and plate are heavier and can handle a higher thermal load, and thus have better ultimate cooling capability. Claiming that it will cool down before the next turn is also false too - the core that isn’t at its maximum capacity will still keep the intake temperatures cooler for longer.

Your own recent experience showed you this - your Intercooler WE2, reached it maximum thermal capacity and it’s effectiveness reduced. A better, larger IC may have not been limited in the same scenario.

Handwaving physics aside won’t change what’s fact. If you watch the video, you’ll also see why ER went with a taller vs wider design (and why it cools better than other brands) ER also states that they went with a Bar and Plate over a tube and fin because it performs better.

Here is a bar and plate vs tube and fin - lower Iats and just as quick recovery

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1518971

RMP used a Mishimoto on their race car, stating that the spacing between the radiator and intercooler provided extra cooling head room. But they are using bar and plate.

https://m.facebook.com/pg/RMP-Motors...2263226/posts/

What I didn’t find, is an example of a Tube and fin being selected over bar and plate for competition use.

I’m not saying I’m definitively right, but I haven’t seen anything else that says otherwise
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      04-17-2020, 11:07 AM   #560
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmuroRay View Post
I’m sorry man, but that’s just hype and marketing speak. Bar and plate are heavier and can handle a higher thermal load, and thus have better ultimate cooling capability. Claiming that it will cool down before the next turn is also false too - the core that isn’t at its maximum capacity will still keep the intake temperatures cooler for longer.

Your own recent experience showed you this - your Intercooler WE2, reached it maximum thermal capacity and it’s effectiveness reduced. A better, larger IC may have not been limited in the same scenario.

Handwaving physics aside won’t change what’s fact. If you watch the video, you’ll also see why ER went with a taller vs wider design (and why it cools better than other brands) ER also states that they went with a Bar and Plate over a tube and fin because it performs better.

Here is a bar and plate vs tube and fin - lower Iats and just as quick recovery

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1518971

RMP used a Mishimoto on their race car, stating that the spacing between the radiator and intercooler provided extra cooling head room. But they are using bar and plate.

https://m.facebook.com/pg/RMP-Motors...2263226/posts/

What I didn’t find, is an example of a Tube and fin being selected over bar and plate for competition use.

I’m not saying I’m definitively right, but I haven’t seen anything else that says otherwise
You’re comparing different sized intercoolers in different situations, not the same sized bar plate and tube fin in the exact same situation. That’s why the outcomes are different.

This is simply about performing a correctly designed experiment, which cannot be done with all the different products on the market and all the different setups we all have and how we all use our cars differently. That’s why we’re not each choosing the same IC to go with, there isn’t a simple this one is better than that one.

If you use a bar plate and tube fin with the same heat rejection capacity in the same situation, they have the pros & cons I listed above bc of their designs. Period.

The Evo2 isn’t enough for my setup and tune and use case of running full tilt on track on 90F+ days for an entire tank of gas (45min), but it’s plenty large for most guys’ use on here.

If the Evo3 has enough heat rejection capacity for my needs, it will be a better performer on track than bar plate bc it will cool quicker between WOT applications, esp after the IC gets hot in the first 15min.

Last edited by ZM2; 04-17-2020 at 11:24 AM..
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      04-17-2020, 11:28 AM   #561
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      04-17-2020, 11:43 AM   #562
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
You’re comparing different sized intercoolers in different situations, not the same sized bar plate and tube fin in the exact same situation. That’s why the outcomes are different.
I’m not. The ATM vs Evo 2 was in a f series chassis. The comment about the ER intercooler is on ER’s webpage description about their N55 F series intercooler.
The Mishimotto intercooler was used on an N55 powered car (F30?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post

This is simply about performing a correctly designed experiment, which cannot be done with all the different products on the market and all the different setups we all have and how we all use our cars differently. That’s why we’re not each choosing the same IC to go with, there isn’t a simple this one is better than that one.

If you use a bar plate and tube fin with the same heat rejection capacity in the same situation, they have the pros & cons I listed above bc of their designs. Period.
I just don’t know if that’s true. I can tell you, of all the intercoolers I looked at (still looking at) the Wagner Evo 2 has consistently performed the WORST out of all the options.

DO88 webpage compares their intercooler vs the Wagner - per their data, it cools better.
The ATM per the data we have, cools better.
The VRSF cools better
Per A race shop, a channel on physics - and actual data - ALL of them say a tube and fin is inferior from a design perspective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
The Evo2 isn’t enough for my setup and tune and use case of running full tilt on track on 90F+ days for an entire tank of gas (45min), but it’s plenty large for most guys’ use on here.
I haven’t seen it work adequately for anyone. Everyone review I see says it gets hot too quickly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post

If the Evo3 has enough heat rejection capacity for my needs, it will be a better performer on track than bar plate bc it will cool quicker between WOT applications, esp after the IC gets hot in the first 15min.
That’s not backed up by data. I’m absolutely interested in seeing someone try the Evo 3 vs the VRSF race or ER unit thought.

Last edited by AmuroRay; 04-18-2020 at 05:20 PM..
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      04-17-2020, 11:43 AM   #563
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VRSF 5" Intercooler HD

That is so tiny!
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      04-17-2020, 12:14 PM   #564
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[QUOTE=AmuroRay;26061056]I’m not. The ATM vs Evo 2 was in a f series chassis. The comment about the ER intercooler is on ER’s webpage description about their N55 F series intercooler.
The Mishimotto intercooler was used on an N55 powered car (F30?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post

This is simply about performing a correctly designed experiment, which cannot be done with all the different products on the market and all the different setups we all have and how we all use our cars differently. That’s why we’re not each choosing the same IC to go with, there isn’t a simple this one is better than that one.


I just don’t know if that’s true. I can tell you, of all the intercoolers I looked at (still looking at) the Wagner Evo 2 has consistently performed the WORST out of all the options.

DO88 webpage compares their intercooler vs the Wagner - per their data, it cools better.
The ATM per the data we have, cools better.
The VRSF cools better
Per A race shop, a channel on physics - and actual data - ALL of them say a tube and fin is inferior from a design perspective.



I haven’t seen it work adequately for anyone. Everyone review I see says it gets hot too quickly.



That’s not backed up by data. I’m absolutely interested in seeing someone try the Evo 3 vs the VRSF race or ER unit thought.
OMG, you’re still missing the point and are debating against yourself in a nonsensical manner.

You thru out a blanket statement that bar plate is better than tube fin, which isn’t true. They are simply too different types of heat exchangers that have pros & cons that benefit users in different ways.

Then you keep giving examples of all these different sized intercoolers and different tests. In this case the best test of bar plate vs tube fin would be comparing the Comp and non-Comp versions of Wagner. Similar size, different exchanger style. The Comp (tube fin) will be lighter and recover quicker once hot than non-Comp (bar plate).

Does the 19lb Evo2 Comp perform as well as the larger and heavier bar plate IC’s you keep mentioning? Not under extreme use situations.

Will the larger heavier Evo3 perform better than all the larger heavier bar plate IC’s you’ve mentioned? We don’t know yet, but I’m guessing yes simply from the Evo 2 vs Evo 3 data that Wagner posted—there’s a huge increase in cooling capacity, and because it’s tube fin it will recover quicker than bar plate once hot.

Last edited by ZM2; 04-17-2020 at 12:24 PM..
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      04-17-2020, 12:45 PM   #565
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[QUOTE=ZM2;26061267]
Quote:
Originally Posted by AmuroRay View Post
I’m not. The ATM vs Evo 2 was in a f series chassis. The comment about the ER intercooler is on ER’s webpage description about their N55 F series intercooler.
The Mishimotto intercooler was used on an N55 powered car (F30?)



OMG, you’re still missing the point and are debating against yourself in a nonsensical manner.

You thru out a blanket statement that bar plate is better than tube fin, which isn’t true. They are simply too different types of heat exchangers that have pros & cons that benefit users in different ways.

Then you keep giving examples of all these different sized intercoolers and different tests. In this case the best test of bar plate vs tube fin would be comparing the Comp and non-Comp versions of Wagner. Similar size, different exchanger style. The Comp (tube fin) will be lighter and recover quicker once hot than non-Comp (bar plate).

Does the 19lb Evo2 Comp perform as well as the larger and heavier bar plate IC’s you keep mentioning? Not under extreme use situations.

Will the larger heavier Evo3 perform better than all the larger heavier bar plate IC’s you’ve mentioned? We don’t know yet, but I’m guessing yes simply from the Evo 2 vs Evo 3 data that Wagner posted—there’s a huge increase in cooling capacity, and because it’s tube fin it will recover quicker than bar plate once hot.
I compared the PHYSICS of why they one functions better than another and provided actual DATA to substantiate that claim, you have provided NOTHING.

You can’t call me misinformed when there is literally 2 comparison (ATM, DO88), and a write up from 2 different manufacturers (ER being one) stating that Bar and Plate is better for cooling than a tube and fin.

Tube and fine are also less expensive to make - so you would think that more manufactures would make one if they were superior- instead only 1 brand exist for the F series.

Just because the ‘perfect’ match up doesn’t exist doesn’t mean you can hand wave all the evidence you don’t agree with.

Let the myth of ‘tube and fin recovers faster’ be dispelled from this message board until someone can PROVE IT. Until then, the Competition line should not be a consideration to ANYONE who tracks their car.
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      04-17-2020, 01:06 PM   #566
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[QUOTE=AmuroRay;26061428]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post

I compared the PHYSICS of why they one functions better than another and provided actual DATA to substantiate that claim, you have provided NOTHING.

You can’t call me misinformed when there is literally 2 comparison (ATM, DO88), and a write up from 2 different manufacturers (ER being one) stating that Bar and Plate is better for cooling than a tube and fin.

Tube and fine are also less expensive to make - so you would think that more manufactures would make one if they were superior- instead only 1 brand exist for the F series.

Just because the ‘perfect’ match up doesn’t exist doesn’t mean you can hand wave all the evidence you don’t agree with.

Let the myth of ‘tube and fin recovers faster’ be dispelled from this message board until someone can PROVE IT. Until then, the Competition line should not be a consideration to ANYONE who tracks their car.
OMG, you’re still going in circles. It’s impossible to decipher anything substantive in your responses regarding bar plate and tube fin. You’re mixing too many variables in your responses to your blanket statement that “bar plate is better than tube fin”. Yes, we’ll let everyone else decide the value of the back and forth.

In my specific situation I’ve run bar plate and tube fin and have logs showing much quicker recovery with tube fin. I don’t have time to dig those up at this very instant, but other guys have recorded the same.

Am I going to switch from Evo 2 Comp to a larger heavier bar plate that has at most 10F better IATs on track? No. The IAT gain doesn’t make a difference in daily driving, and I run E30-45 on track so the impacts of timing pull in a 10F IAT difference are near negligible. I’m waiting to see a bigger performance jump than 10F and the Evo 3 looks to be it.
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      04-18-2020, 04:10 AM   #567
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Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Do you have a custom oil cooler?

The instructions say it’ll fit the F87.
Yes, my oil cooler mounted in front of water cooler, below DKG cooler, so I am not sure, there will be enough space.

For standard M2 should not be a problem
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      04-18-2020, 01:39 PM   #568
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Originally Posted by Peter_VIE View Post
Yes, my oil cooler mounted in front of water cooler, below DKG cooler, so I am not sure, there will be enough space.

For standard M2 should not be a problem
Ahhh so you have an M2c?

This application would never work for you....but you'd never need it!
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      04-18-2020, 02:32 PM   #569
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Originally Posted by GerardzM View Post
Ahhh so you have an M2c?

This application would never work for you....but you'd never need it!
No, I have a M2 "csl" edition
there is a thread named "slim edition M2"
I recently deleted front oil cooler and front support water cooler, to open air flow for brake cooling. Replaced water cooler by d088 cooler, and oil cooler moved up to frontside. Until now works quite well, but we have not had high temps here.
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      04-18-2020, 02:41 PM   #570
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So, I spent quite a bit of time this morning going thru a crap ton of logs (you’re welcome). There are two sets of logs with the Dinan IC (bar plate) and one set with the Evo2 Comp (tube fin) below.

The environmental and use differences between the logs should heavily assist the Dinan: ambient temps are much colder in one set, and pulls are only halfway into 4th gear in the other.

For the Evo2 log, I didn’t start the recording until having already completed many pulls so the IC is already nice and hot at the start of the log, and most of the pulls are all the way thru 4th. So, this is not fair bc in normal daily driving before doing pulls I would consistently see IATs 10-20F cooler with the Evo2 as a starting point.

Outcome:
When singling out similar types of pulls to review IAT rise, the Wagner increases are lower. You can also see this in the general overall IAT temp line trend increasing over time with the Dinan. The basically shows that the Wagner has more cooling capacity than the Dinan, which I don’t think is a shocker to anyone here.

As for recovery, both ICs reduced temps around 10F between pulls going halfway into 4th. The Wagner recovered a little more when doing pulls all the way thru 4th.

Would a larger bar plate have performed better than the Dinan? Yes. Would the Evo 2 have shown even better recovery if I had started logging the earlier pulls? Probably.

So, which is better, tube fin or bar plate? Inconclusive! These logs are exactly what I mean that you cannot throw out a blanket statement that one type of heat exchanger is better than the other. It’s more about which specific products are available on the market, and what works best for someone’s specific use scenarios.

Bottom line, the Evo2 Comp is large enough for anyone running up to a Stage 2 tune on the street. It’s also large enough for anyone not consistently doing more than 20min track sessions on hot summer days. And, it weighs 10lbs less than the large heavier bar plate IC’s that may have a little more cooling capacity.

For those of us pushing the use case boundaries, we need more cooling than the Evo2 and many of the bar plate ICs. If one of you guys could go buy the large VRSFs and the Evo3 Comp and do the same logging comparison, we would all appreciate it!

Dinan IC logs
https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5c2c...729b51747a4b72
https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5c8c...729b3511ea8fd1

Evo2 Comp logs
https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5cb9...729b44f4273e3b
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      04-18-2020, 02:52 PM   #571
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_VIE View Post
No, I have a M2 "csl" edition
there is a thread named "slim edition M2"
I recently deleted front oil cooler and front support water cooler, to open air flow for brake cooling. Replaced water cooler by d088 cooler, and oil cooler moved up to frontside. Until now works quite well, but we have not had high temps here.
That’s a sweet build and I’ve contemplated the TySpeed style cooling setup, but my car is very much a daily driver and I’d like to keep air conditioning and not worry about oil temp warm up on very cold winter nights.

So, if the VRSF Race or Evo3 Comp do the trick in my case, I’ll be happy. Maybe Tiago@VRSF will send me a VRSF Race IC or Basti@Wagner-Tuning will send me an Evo3 Comp to see if it’ll fit the M2, and then we can all see how these two IC’s perform compared to the Evo2?

Last edited by ZM2; 04-18-2020 at 02:58 PM..
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      04-18-2020, 05:13 PM   #572
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Drives: M235i
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Florida

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
That’s a sweet build and I’ve contemplated the TySpeed style cooling setup, but my car is very much a daily driver and I’d like to keep air conditioning and not worry about oil temp warm up on very cold winter nights.

So, if the VRSF Race or Evo3 Comp do the trick in my case, I’ll be happy. Maybe Tiago@VRSF will send me a VRSF Race IC or Basti@Wagner-Tuning will send me an Evo3 Comp to see if it’ll fit the M2, and then we can all see how these two IC’s perform compared to the Evo2?
I spent all last night and this morning reading. The Evo 3 measurements may still make it smaller than the VRSF race. Per Tiago in the thread, the IC cost about .85psi. The core is absolutely MASSIVE, it’s almost DOUBLE the size of the other cores - there is just no way around the size disparity and thermal capacity.

Read through the thread, no mention of increased lag either. If your tracking the car, the Race IC should be the final word.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiago@VRSF View Post
Wagner doesn't correctly state their total volume. They don't account for the step in their intercoolers which is misleading and claim it's larger than it really is. As seen here they're treating the intercooler like a conventional cuboid when it clearly is not. Counting negative space as volume is deceiving.

Directly from their website.

"Stepped Competition Intercooler Core. Size 520 x 210 x130, 11.752cm? Volume (OEM 510x130x110mm, 7293cm Volume). Approx. 85% bigger surface over OEM IC."

The actual dimensions of the Wagner Competition core is 649.25 in3. The ER non stepped is 660 in3 and our race FMIC is 1050 in3. Our HD Street stepped core is 660 in3.

As far as fin packs go, here's a picture of ER's fin pack where we count 8 fins per inch. If we're going to count each individual vertical fin which is essentially half a fin, it's 16.



If we count our individual vertical fins we get 20 fins per inch.

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