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      12-18-2018, 03:59 PM   #89
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I have a signed buyer's agreement for a jan-feb allocation. If they change model year and bump the price, I guess I'll be giving it up, unless the dealer is willing to stick to the agreement. I guess we have to see how big the increase is, but I bet it'll be more than 500 dollars, which is all I'll personally tolerate on principle.

I called my dealer, they haven't heard about this yet, but said that I won't be bound by the buyer's agreement, which is good, but I was looking forward to this car. I still have hope until we see official numbers.
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      12-18-2018, 04:17 PM   #90
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Oh goody,

That must mean they're probably in like the gestation stage of developing the brand new generation of G87 M2s..

Can't wait to see what they do with it and what motor they decide to shoehorn in that small chassis..

Test mules should be running around by this time next year..
I really hope that the size stays where it is - there should be a small, RWD coupe in BMW's lineup, always.

And I don't mean smallest series number. actually small enough to toss around like the 1M/M2/M2C are.

EDIT - aren't we decently sure that the car will come with a detuned version of the S58?

That's supposed to debut in the X3M/X4M first, then the G80/G82, then the M2, right?
Well, logically it should have a S58 since the Z4 M40i (Stupid name BTW) B58 is already pushing 380hp and now comes stock with a M-like torque-vectoring LSD.

The true M cars are really going to have to step their game up to stand out from the plebeian models, since BMW is slicing the pie so thin..

As far as the size goes, it's probably going to grow a few inches, judging by the slight expansion of the G20. I hope they don't but looking their natural progression; BMW grows, they don't shrink. But they'll remain RWD for one last generation..

Get ready for another dick-measuring contest of F87 VS G87 that's inevitable
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      12-18-2018, 04:22 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
Well, logically it should have a S58 since the Z4 M40i (Stupid name BTW) B58 is already pushing 380hp and now comes stock with a M-like torque-vectoring LSD.

The true M cars are really going to have to step their game up to stand out from the plebeian models, since BMW is slicing the pie so thin..

As far as the size goes, it's probably going to grow a few inches, judging by the slight expansion of the G20. I hope they don't but looking their natural progression; BMW grows, they don't shrink. But they'll remain RWD for one last generation..

Get ready for another dick-measuring contest of F87 VS G87 that's inevitable
Well, yes, of course.

It's too bad there won't be a DCT in the next gen - I really haven't driven a ZF that felt nearly as good. I am sure it will be fast, but likely too smooth for my tastes.

Perhaps the MT will be the logical option in that case?

I had two E82s, and they were just a bit too small...same thing with my 981...the F80 is about 10% too big...so the F87 falls right in that sweet spot. An inch or two is manageable...but this overall growth, each and every generation, is annoying.
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      12-18-2018, 04:47 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
Well, yes, of course.

It's too bad there won't be a DCT in the next gen - I really haven't driven a ZF that felt nearly as good. I am sure it will be fast, but likely too smooth for my tastes.
Highly recommend test driving an F90 M5
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      12-18-2018, 04:56 PM   #93
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Highly recommend test driving an F90 M5
I have always wanted to yell "Ahoy, Captain!" at the top of my lungs - I suppose that would be a good opportunity to do so.

The comment related to smoothness is what I most often associated with the ZF, regardless of which version it is or car it happens to be in.

The smoothness is a detriment, in my opinion - to the overall experience. I don't want a car that shifts like butter...but that's just me.
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      12-18-2018, 05:09 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
I have always wanted to yell "Ahoy, Captain!" at the top of my lungs - I suppose that would be a good opportunity to do so.

The comment related to smoothness is what I most often associated with the ZF, regardless of which version it is or car it happens to be in.

The smoothness is a detriment, in my opinion - to the overall experience. I don't want a car that shifts like butter...but that's just me.
That's why I highly recommend it I don't have so much seat time with DCT but I know what you are talking about and I also like how it kicks you back into the seat in the most aggressive setting. I rented an F90 M5 in Munich this summer for a day and it was pretty spectacular. It has different shifting modes like DCT and it can still kick you back into the seat with those aggressive shifts. As I said , I drove the DCT long time ago so my memory isn't fresh but my experience in the F90 M5 was really close to what I experienced in an M4 DCT in terms of shifts. You do feel the shifts so they are not smooth by any means in the third setting (S3 I believe).
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      12-18-2018, 05:22 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cntzl View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
I have always wanted to yell "Ahoy, Captain!" at the top of my lungs - I suppose that would be a good opportunity to do so.

The comment related to smoothness is what I most often associated with the ZF, regardless of which version it is or car it happens to be in.

The smoothness is a detriment, in my opinion - to the overall experience. I don't want a car that shifts like butter...but that's just me.
You do feel the shifts so they are not smooth by any means in the third setting (S3 I believe).
I think I know what you mean, the ZF8, even the 330i loaner car I drove, it artificially bang gears in Sport+ auto mode. It felt like when you're beastin' with a manual and slamming gears into each other, without slipping the clutch..

First there was fake exhaust sound (ASD) now fake gear changes.. Pretty soon it will be virtual reality speeding, while you're cruising around the boulevard with your grandma..
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      12-18-2018, 05:29 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
I think I know what you mean, the ZF8, even the 330i loaner car I drove, it artificially bang gears in Sport+ auto mode. It felt like when you're beastin' with a manual and slamming gear into each other, without slipping the clutch..

First there was fake exhaust sound (ASD) now fake gear changes.. Pretty soon it will be virtual reality speeding, while you're cruising around the boulevard with your grandma..
I'm a MT fan and have limited experience with autos so can't really tell what's real or what's fake about DCT, ZF8 or any other auto I just felt like the ZF8 in F90 was pretty close to DCT in terms of shifting speed and feel.
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      12-18-2018, 05:43 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cntzl View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
I think I know what you mean, the ZF8, even the 330i loaner car I drove, it artificially bang gears in Sport+ auto mode. It felt like when you're beastin' with a manual and slamming gear into each other, without slipping the clutch..

First there was fake exhaust sound (ASD) now fake gear changes.. Pretty soon it will be virtual reality speeding, while you're cruising around the boulevard with your grandma..
I'm a MT fan and have limited experience with autos so can't really tell what's real or what's fake about DCT, ZF8 or any other auto I just felt like the ZF8 in F90 was pretty close to DCT in terms of shifting speed and feel.
I got you, just saying I know what you mean by the DCT-like shifting in the ZF8..

When BMW M switches to full ZF8, they probably wouldn't be that $2,900 up-charge like for the DCT and that current 50% MT take rate will drop to like 10%, if that..Then the MT will just implode..

The manual is on life support; we just going to have to embrace whatever the future holds..

I'm slowly coming to terms with it, as you can't stop progress - which is the ZF8.
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      12-18-2018, 05:59 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by cntzl View Post
That's why I highly recommend it I don't have so much seat time with DCT but I know what you are talking about and I also like how it kicks you back into the seat in the most aggressive setting. I rented an F90 M5 in Munich this summer for a day and it was pretty spectacular. It has different shifting modes like DCT and it can still kick you back into the seat with those aggressive shifts. As I said , I drove the DCT long time ago so my memory isn't fresh but my experience in the F90 M5 was really close to what I experienced in an M4 DCT in terms of shifts. You do feel the shifts so they are not smooth by any means in the third setting (S3 I believe).
I am sure I will give the G80 a try before the new M2 comes out - I am just disappointed that BMW wouldn't put the R&D into making a DCT that could handle the higher BHP and torque numbers. Other manufacturers seem to be able to do it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
I think I know what you mean, the ZF8, even the 330i loaner car I drove, it artificially bang gears in Sport+ auto mode. It felt like when you're beastin' with a manual and slamming gears into each other, without slipping the clutch..

First there was fake exhaust sound (ASD) now fake gear changes.. Pretty soon it will be virtual reality speeding, while you're cruising around the boulevard with your grandma..
these are the main reasons my leasing days are coming to an end - I will either be picking up a cherry 981 GTS, OG M2 LCI, or M2C in the next year, because at least the majority of what I love about cars is still present in those examples...
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      12-18-2018, 06:36 PM   #99
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Honestly, if you have Porsche money, I would go that route.. Beside the benefits of a rear-engine vehicle, It would be so cool to able to subliminally brag to someone by saying; "You pop the trunk, I pop the hood"

#HumbleBrag

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      12-18-2018, 07:59 PM   #100
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Honestly, if you have Porsche money, I would go that route.. Beside the benefits of a rear-engine vehicle, It would be so cool to able to subliminally brag to someone by saying; "You pop the trunk, I pop the hood"

#HumbleBrag

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But I needed more practicality, hence the F80. Honestly I need an M and a P car, but not to that point in life yet. Hopefully someday.
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      01-02-2019, 09:56 AM   #101
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Went into my local BMW dealership over the weekend and apparently the MY2020 cars will have standard carbon ceramic brakes (not an option) and a choice of the front winglets or lip to option-in to the spec. I honestly am taking this information with the smallest grain of salt, as I think it is probably unlikely the car will not even come with the option to choose the current standard steel brakes if one didn't want the CCB. I guess we will see.
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      01-02-2019, 10:49 AM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cntzl View Post
That's why I highly recommend it I don't have so much seat time with DCT but I know what you are talking about and I also like how it kicks you back into the seat in the most aggressive setting. I rented an F90 M5 in Munich this summer for a day and it was pretty spectacular. It has different shifting modes like DCT and it can still kick you back into the seat with those aggressive shifts. As I said , I drove the DCT long time ago so my memory isn't fresh but my experience in the F90 M5 was really close to what I experienced in an M4 DCT in terms of shifts. You do feel the shifts so they are not smooth by any means in the third setting (S3 I believe).
The ZF8 is a clutch-to-clutch shift (no torque converter involved, it's locked full-time...) for every change except the 1->2 shift and when stopped. It's essentially a planetary implementation of a DCT for most modes so there's no "fake" going on. It is hammering gears. One clutch releases, other engages so it can rival a DCT in shift speed

FWIW
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      01-02-2019, 11:16 AM   #103
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The ZF8 is a clutch-to-clutch shift (no torque converter involved, it's locked full-time...) for every change except the 1->2 shift and when stopped. It's essentially a planetary implementation of a DCT for most modes so there's no "fake" going on. It is hammering gears. One clutch releases, other engages so it can rival a DCT in shift speed

FWIW
ZF8 has torque converter (https://www.zf.com/products/en/cars/products_29289.html).
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      01-02-2019, 11:37 AM   #104
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Went into my local BMW dealership over the weekend and apparently the MY2020 cars will have standard carbon ceramic brakes (not an option) and a choice of the front winglets or lip to option-in to the spec. I honestly am taking this information with the smallest grain of salt, as I think it is probably unlikely the car will not even come with the option to choose the current standard steel brakes if one didn't want the CCB. I guess we will see.
I would highly doubt a 60k car will have standard CCB's.
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      01-02-2019, 11:47 AM   #105
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I would highly doubt a 60k car will have standard CCB's.
Exactly my thoughts also
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      01-02-2019, 12:13 PM   #106
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Exactly my thoughts also
Yeah, sort of seems like the dealer is making stuff up. Also think CCB could be a detractor from purchasing. I'm guessing prices have come down a bit in the last few years, but you need to take a loan out to do brake maintenance.

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1098434
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      01-02-2019, 12:30 PM   #107
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Yeah, sort of seems like the dealer is making stuff up. Also think CCB could be a detractor from purchasing. I'm guessing prices have come down a bit in the last few years, but you need to take a loan out to do brake maintenance.

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1098434
Yeah definitely. I know I definitely don't want CCB on my car and if this was actually the case, I would just go for a MY2019 car.
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      01-02-2019, 02:27 PM   #108
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Absolutely, but it's locked for everything but 1st gear and during the 1->2 shift. It's direct drive in every other mode
<edit> (at least in the applications I've seen it used. The end automaker is ultimately responsible for the control software and tuning)

ZF8 Deep Dive

Last edited by BlkSVT; 01-02-2019 at 02:34 PM..
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      01-03-2019, 12:31 AM   #109
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Went into my local BMW dealership over the weekend and apparently the MY2020 cars will have standard carbon ceramic brakes (not an option) and a choice of the front winglets or lip to option-in to the spec. I honestly am taking this information with the smallest grain of salt, as I think it is probably unlikely the car will not even come with the option to choose the current standard steel brakes if one didn't want the CCB. I guess we will see.
CCB + front winglets / lip as standard features ? Hm, that rather sounds as something for a more track-oriented F87 variant, than for a BMW entry level ///M car.
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      01-03-2019, 08:05 AM   #110
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alaing51 View Post
Went into my local BMW dealership over the weekend and apparently the MY2020 cars will have standard carbon ceramic brakes (not an option) and a choice of the front winglets or lip to option-in to the spec. I honestly am taking this information with the smallest grain of salt, as I think it is probably unlikely the car will not even come with the option to choose the current standard steel brakes if one didn't want the CCB. I guess we will see.
CCB + front winglets / lip as standard features ? Hm, that rather sounds as something for a more track-oriented F87 variant, than for a BMW entry level ///M car.
That would be the CS.
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