[Germanauto]

BMW has been going in this direction since about 2010 when the F10 5-series and E89 Z4 were launched. Both cars drove nothing like BMWs at the time, and subsequently every redesigned model during the early 2010s suffered the same fate.

Now a decade later, BMW is simply just mashing the pedal to the floor and not even hiding their intentions anymore. They want to be known as a lifestyle/tech brand with the "ultimate driving machine" used purely as marketing with little substance to support it. Obviously they are not making cars that drive like crap as they are still very good in a technical sense, but they've purposely engineered the sensations out of their cars. Bimmers today drive roughly the identically to Audis and Mercs.

At this point I'm just thankful they produce cars like the M2C and X3M. Everything else is varying degrees of too bloated, too numb, and too focused on pleasing the mass market. When you try to be everything to everybody, your product is watered down.

[Germanauto]

Originally Posted by Karmic Man

Isn't BMW's heritage is all about the driving experience?

In-car tech gimmicks do not forge brand loyalty. Crash safety and driving dynamics do.

Would one want a plastic case Rolex with an easy-to-read digital display? Damn no! Rolex will tell these people to go get a Casio. As that will kill the heritage and without a heritage the brand is just a commodity with zero desirability.

Driving dynamics don't sell cars anymore in this tech-dominated world; image and well, tech do. At most, from a performance standpoint, people just value 0-60 times since that earns them bragging rights (though when's the last time you saw anybody in a Tesla launch their car from a light?).

In the past BMW could pour all their efforts into producing the best driving car possible because consumers valued it, but since the launch of things like the iPhone and Facebook in the late 00s the world has changed drastically. For younger buyers tech is all they know. Society is also more "disposable" than ever now. We buy things we don't need, throw them away quickly, and buy the next big thing.

BMW is basically too big for their own good. They are no longer a growing automaker trying to make a name for themselves, they need volume and in order to do that they must chase the mass market. The result is that most of their products are engineered to the lowest common denominator for the mass market. This phenomenon is also known by hipsters as "selling out."

Porsche, like Rolex, can get away with producing niche products and remaining true to their roots since they are still a small company and make massive margins on their products. They have had to sell out a little with products like the Cayenne and Macan which are as common as fleas nowadays, but those vehicles still drive like Porsches and clearly fund all the awesome sports cars they produce.

[Karmic Man]

Originally Posted by Germanauto

Driving dynamics don't sell cars anymore in this tech-dominated world; image and well, tech do. At most, from a performance standpoint, people just value 0-60 times since that earns them bragging rights (though when's the last time you saw anybody in a Tesla launch their car from a light?).

In the past BMW could pour all their efforts into producing the best driving car possible because consumers valued it, but since the launch of things like the iPhone and Facebook in the late 00s the world has changed drastically. For younger buyers tech is all they know. Society is also more "disposable" than ever now. We buy things we don't need, throw them away quickly, and buy the next big thing.

BMW is basically too big for their own good. They are no longer a growing automaker trying to make a name for themselves, they need volume and in order to do that they must chase the mass market. The result is that most of their products are engineered to the lowest common denominator for the mass market. This phenomenon is also known by hipsters as "selling out."

Porsche, like Rolex, can get away with producing niche products and remaining true to their roots since they are still a small company and make massive margins on their products. They have had to sell out a little with products like the Cayenne and Macan which are as common as fleas nowadays, but those vehicles still drive like Porsches and clearly fund all the awesome sports cars they produce.

I have to disagree on the front that that driving dynamics don't sell cars anymore...most car manufacturers have techs wrapped in a oversized uncoherent designed body these days. What's going to set one apart from the other?

Most people don't know what they want until they have seen it or have experienced it. Car dynamics is something that can be experienced and be appreciated. That builds brand loyalty. Not some tech loaded gadgets with software that goes out of date before it's released...I am loyal to Apple not because of techs but because the lack of unnecessary tech...simplicity to enrich the experience is how Steve Jobs made the the Mac and iPhone so successful, not the tech itself.

BMW pushed itself into the current situation. It can easily downsize its model range (which the current CEO is looking to do) and return to its roots to cater for more specific clienteles rather than continuing on a jack of all trades type of business model. It will make the brand more desirable which in return will drive more high value sales because people will also want what they can't get.

[natmad]

I must say...

I find the new design visuals to be so disturbing that I almost want to sell my M2C, just to get away from the brand. Not just the grille, but the visual flow from the front to the rear is a bit awkward, as were the “Bangled” up BMWs. And the wonderful round BMW instruments are gone.

But... I enjoy driving my M2C too much!

A 911 will have to wait. I’d really like a 991.2 GTS, but not at nearly twice the cost of my M2C.

[bri1042]

Unfortunately, I think MOST of the car industry has, in the context of this thread, lost its way. I read an interesting article a bit ago that analyzed the industry's common statement that "SUV's sell because that's what people want" that came to a pretty solid conclusion that the way companies priced vehicles, updated vehicles, and advertised them actually led consumers to basically have no choice but to go that way.

Consumer expectations followed where the car companies led them, and BMW, along with a few others, would now be in deep trouble if they didn't then also follow along.

Spend some time on some of the other sub-boards here and read the positive comments made by a lot of folk on cars like the 540 (which has body roll from here to June but is otherwise a pretty darn good car) or the 4-cyl X3 (which is still better to drive than most of the top sellers in the segment). Add in strange laws like the weight-based emissions rules in France and the whole story gets really complicated.

Even most of the people ON THIS BOARD don't want what most of us in this section of the board want. I think we need to see what happens to some of the other companies in their next generation. Will Ford keep going in the positive direction they did with this last generation of Mustang? Will the 911 tip further into the GT car territory and stop being a Sports car (there are plenty of P-car enthusiasts who say it already has)? Are the next generation of Merc 63's really going to be Hybrid 4-pots?

In the end, who did this to us? Regulations? Ford and Chevy for tricking everyone into going with SUV's? Apple for convincing people that everything should be a smartphone? Mostly uninformed buyers? I don't know, but I don't blame BMW more than I blame everyone else. And I'm not very happy.

[Noh Wan]

BMW is having an identity crisis. Where does Bavarian Motor Works fit in a world of electric cars? What place does "driving dynamics" hold in a world with self-driving machines. More and more consumers are getting rid of their "cars" and buying rooms on wheels. Devices to chirp at you when the car in front of you moves so you know it's time to look up from your phone. Another device to brake for you... so you don't have to look up from your phone. Cars can parallel park themselves so driving in the city isn't as intimidating to people that probably do a hundred other things that should prevent them from driving in the city. Even for those of us that enjoy "expertly" operating a well crafted machine... they've automated the "manual" transmission... with auto rev matching. BMW sees the writing on the wall and is doing their best to play in a changing world.

...and according to the sales figures they're nailing it. The part I find tragic is that the 3 series used to be the undeniable benchmark of the compact executive car. Fast, fun, professional. Seemingly no compromise. The thing every other manufacturer in the segment aspired to. Arguably the 3/4 series still is, but it's not a dominant lead these days. 10-15 years ago, when Audi was starting to take a chunk out of BMW market share, BMW decided to fight back by changing it's naming convention to match. Then Lexus and Infinity started to get competitive with higher displacement and more powerful motors, so BMW answered by changing its engine designations. Arguably you could say that the hideous grill on the new M3/4 is a response to the Alfa Romeo Giulia (which is gorgeous by the way). BMW defined "Freude am Fahren," but when the competition starting getting hot they looked to second place for inspiration instead of leading the way independently. They're still really good, and I can't think of another manufacturer that checks the same boxes at the price point. Sadly, like fine wine, the very thing that makes it special is the very thing that goes so unappreciated by the majority of consumers (even the ones that say they appreciate it).

When I sold my E90, one guy test drove it and said "The steering is heavy. I though BMW's had good steering?" He didn't understand, and I couldn't explain to him that the weight of the the steering WAS good steering. I couldn't explain what feedback was without showing him the limits of the car, and that was NOT something he was going to be comfortable with. I told him I didn't think he would like the car and I though he might prefer a Lexus. He agreed and we parted ways. He heard the hype. He wanted one. And when it came time to try it he didn't like it.

I hate it, but I think BMW is doing the right thing. Every time they sell a bloated X5 or they sell an "M"440i (Where M means Marketing) it gives them an opportunity to make something like the M2. Honestly, all legendary BMW's have been the result of the engineering department convincing someone to let them do something crazy. The M1 was a result of Engineering cajoling Corporate into taking a pot shot at Porsche. The 2002 turbo was not planned. The E28 M5 was a stunt. As the hype grew around M cars you ended up with the properly insane E60 M5 and the E46 M3. Most recently you had the 1M coupe which was, effectively, a parts bin car.

I suppose what I'm saying is that BMW doesn't make great cars on purpose. They make legendary cars on accident. I've come to terms with the fact that we are ending the golden age of the IC engine. I'm aware that I'm probably going to be an old guy, still racing an old fashioned IC car with manual transmission, which to me, is good and proper and fully engaging. But kids of that era will look at me the same way I used to look at the guys that raced in the old vintage GT racing leagues. The ones that needed a co-driver to adjust fuel-air ratio and timing on the fly. I couldn't figure out why all the fuss was worth it. I'm sure they would say climate control and a radio isn't "real" driving.

Be nice. It's just an opinion.

[Ceramic Rabbit]

to be honest i don't see the DCT really being worth the extra weight over a ZF tranny.

i agree the cars are getting too heavy obviously, but switching the DCT out is probably a net positive

[CannibalOx]

I know its super popular to talk about how BMW lost its way. I'll be the first to say that trending towards more mass is never a great thing. That said almost all cars are going that way. Additionally, there has only ever been one M3 that was sub 3000 lbs and it was introduced in the 80's. Many of BMW's best cars have always been the usable daily's that have some real performance. Go and look at the old reviews for the E39 M5, a 4000 lbs car, and they all talk about how well it handles. Again, not saying that I think the trend toward more mass and size is a good thing; just that I think its a bit over blown.

I had a Cayman S for four years I am surprised at how close the M2C is in terms of back road prowess. Yes, a pure sports car with a 600lbs weight advantage and the engine in the right place handles better. However, its closer than I thought it would be. The biggest difference between the cars is in the steering feel. I know that's been mentioned and I think that's the most disappointing trend.

[MystroX5]

Honestly, most people have not owned enough performance cars from different brands to have a educated opinion on the subject. They default to models and brands they read about on the forums without ever having any ownership experience and claim they are better or more focused. Consider even the YouTube reviews are full of personal opinions and hidden politics that don’t really give a clear representation. We don’t know if their “better” holds the same definition and what priorities your “better” might be.

[Moflow]

Originally Posted by bri1042

Will Ford keep going in the positive direction they did with this last generation of Mustang? .

Technically, the last generation mustang is an electric crossover.

Just had to point that out

[TargaM2]

Originally Posted by MystroX5

Honestly, most people have not owned enough performance cars from different brands to have a educated opinion on the subject. They default to models and brands they read about on the forums without ever having any ownership experience and claim they are better or more focused. Consider even the YouTube reviews are full of personal opinions and hidden politics that don't really give a clear representation. We don't know if their "better" holds the same definition and what priorities your "better" might be.

This is very true, so many that simply regurgitate whatever others are saying or whatever they think the popular opinion is despite the fact it may be utter bullshit.
Its like this on many car forums, though I will say on this site the M2 forum is generally better in this regard than the M3/4/5 forums imo. Rant over.

[richard in NC]

One thing BMW M does well is have a broad range of cars that target their audience and get it mostly right.

The M8 is for folks wanting an ultimate luxury GT but can't afford a Bentley, etc
The M5 is for well off folks that want luxury, performance, and bragging rights. And probably have a Porsche or Ferrari as a weekend fun car.
The M4 is for the younger crowd that wants the badge and do mods.
The M3 is like above but those with a family.
The M2 is for the enthusiast that wants to relive the past ultimate driving machine.
The X3M is for the enthusiast that needs utility.
The X5M is for those that want the ultimate beast.
The M550i is for the executive that wants performance without compromise
The M340i is for the enthusiast that has a family and wants a premium sedan
The M235i is for the folks that want a taste of the BMW experience.
and so on

[Tag]

Originally Posted by richard in NC

One thing BMW M does well is have a broad range of cars that target their audience and get it mostly right.

The M8 is for folks wanting an ultimate luxury GT but can't afford a Bentley, etc
The M5 is for well off folks that want luxury, performance, and bragging rights. And probably have a Porsche or Ferrari as a weekend fun car.
The M4 is for the younger crowd that wants the badge and do mods.
The M3 is like above but those with a family.
The M2 is for the enthusiast that wants to relive the past ultimate driving machine.
The X3M is for the enthusiast that needs utility.
The X5M is for those that want the ultimate beast.
The M550i is for the executive that wants performance without compromise
The M340i is for the enthusiast that has a family and wants a premium sedan
The M235i is for the folks that want a taste of the BMW experience.
and so on

They seriously have way too many models, so many that they're taking coupes and turning them into 'Gran Coupe' sedans. I picture the marketing team at BMW asking "how do we sell more cars?" and getting the reply of "let's make tons of different models that suit different individual needs". Terrible business model IMO as it's not sustainable nor is it creative.

“If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.” ~Henry Ford

[TargaM2]