[Bumpinjeep]

So what did the OP get? Manual or auto? This thread is like 2 years old, maybe he didn't even get the car? Maybe he bought a Scion XB?!?

[///AVM]

Originally Posted by BigKutta

Why is the PDK shifter better than the M2 shifter? Shape? I ask because I like using the M2C shifter a lot and it does the job

BTW, the 911 shifter above is awesome looking

BigKutta

I am not of opinion the PDK shifter is 'better' than the M2 shifter.

Yes, the PDK shifter looks and feels like a true MT, however, my point to XX was that I am not a big fan of the paddles - I was not stating the PDK shifter is better than the DCT M2 shifter. . . although they are different in appearance and ergonomics.

I do not mind how the new 911 PDK shifter looks, but it falls short on manual mode engagement.

///AVM

[Moflow]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

I do not mind how the new 911 PDK shifter looks, but it falls short on manual mode engagement.

///AVM

Yeah, plus its going to take forever to shave with something that small.

[BigKutta]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

BigKutta

I am not of opinion the PDK shifter is 'better' than the M2 shifter.

Yes, the PDK shifter looks and feels like a true MT, however, my point to XX was that I am not a big fan of the paddles - I was not stating the PDK shifter is better than the DCT M2 shifter. . . although they are different in appearance and ergonomics.

I do not mind how the new 911 PDK shifter looks, but it falls short on manual mode engagement.

///AVM

I dont mind the paddles. When driving in a straightaway, I tend to enjoy the paddles, but on turns I use the shifter. Would have liked a slightly higher and manual-like shifter, but its fine

Agree, that 911 shifter is more style than function

[BigKutta]

Originally Posted by Moflow

Yeah, plus its going to take forever to shave with something that small.

LOL! I does look like a Braun

[Poochie]

I've never driver a DCT equipped BMW, only VW DSG 1th generation but I'm assuming that jarring, shift feel that everyone is referring with the DCT is mentioned below at the 4:10 mark:

And here at 5:55:

[Davil]

Originally Posted by BigKutta

BTW, the 911 shifter above is awesome looking

It looks nice but there is one rather big problem. It doesn't shift gears.

[xxyion]

Yeah again it was a hard choice. I had the 230i for a bit (i think it was the ZF auto?) and i did love not having to worry about gears every now and then and just mash the throttle for fun.

One of these days maybe someone will develop a system where its auto when you want it, but when you switch to manual mode, a third pedal descends down and you have to clutch yourself lol.

[Poochie]

Originally Posted by xxyion

One of these days maybe someone will develop a system where its auto when you want it, but when you switch to manual mode, a third pedal descends down and you have to clutch yourself lol.

I also pictured a day where when you opted for a manual, the clutch pedal operation became optional but that ship already sailed; as the manual transmission is on its way and frankly, I'm surprised it survived this long.

BMW, Porsche, and Aston Martin are the last luxury-sport manufactures left to offer a manual transmission option and they're just pandering to the few holdover, niche consumers left, before the the third pedal is extinct.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by Poochie

I also pictured a day where when you opted for a manual, the clutch pedal operation became optional but that ship already sailed; as the manual transmission is on its way and frankly, I'm surprised it survived this long.

BMW, Porsche, and Aston Martin are the last luxury-sport manufactures left to offer a manual transmission option and they're just pandering to the few holdover, niche consumers left, before the the third pedal is extinct.

I just can't get myself to use these DCTs in manual mode. Maybe I need more time in them, but I can do it for a while and then I'm like, ah forget it, auto it is. I also notice I've never really enjoyed manual shifting in driving games. I don't know if it's the clutch really - maybe it's just the knowledge that shifting is an absolute need and there is no other fallback. I think physical / tactile feedback is key and why shifting with these little switches that don't even try to approximate a shift linkage fails for me.

I've never driven SMG, but I wonder what it would be like to drive a system that had no automatic mode (or a really bad one) and how that would force me to behave.

[Poochie]

Originally Posted by chris719

I just can't get myself to use these DCTs in manual mode. Maybe I need more time in them, but I can do it for a while and then I'm like, ah forget it, auto it is. I also notice I've never really enjoyed manual shifting in driving games. I don't know if it's the clutch really - maybe it's just the knowledge that shifting is an absolute need and there is no other fallback. I think physical / tactile feedback is key and why shifting with these little switches that try to approximate a shift linkage fails for me.

I've never driven SMG, but I wonder what it would be like to drive a system that had no automatic mode and how that would force me to behave.

I know exactly what you mean, I must of been through 30 different loaner cars with lighting-fast shifting and paddles.

The shifting speed is not the issue, it's playing with buttons get boring soo fast. I'm always thinking in the back of mind; 'Cool but the computer can do a much better job' and just leave it in auto and save some gas.

I tried the paddles with an open mind but just like I would get no pleasure from kissing a guy, because it's just not my thing, I getting nothing from a transmission with paddles. Sorry, I like the stick.

However, when the time comes and I have give up the third pedal, I'll go without a fight but as long as BMW offers one, it's stick to clutch


Not knocking anyone that opts for the DCT, I respect your opinion and choice, as much as you should mines.

[Davil]

Originally Posted by chris719

I just can't get myself to use these DCTs in manual mode. Maybe I need more time in them, but I can do it for a while and then I'm like, ah forget it, auto it is. I also notice I've never really enjoyed manual shifting in driving games. I don't know if it's the clutch really

Sounds like deep down you prefer an auto. I think the next M2 will be great for a lot of you guys.

Tragic for the DCT die hards though! 😭

[Davil]

Originally Posted by Poochie

The shifting speed is not the issue, it's playing with buttons get boring soo fast. I'm always thinking in the back of mind; 'Cool but the computer can do a much better job' and just leave it in auto and save some gas.

This finally confirms my suspicions. I change gears for car control. You change gears for another reason entirely. No judgement but we have very different expectations here.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by Davil

Sounds like deep down you prefer an auto. I think the next M2 will be great for a lot of you guys.

Tragic for the DCT die hards though! 😭

I'll just buy a 6MT since they will still have it for one more generation. Do I think DCT is better than the auto? Yeah, but it's a minor difference in most cases. In my opinion, the largest difference is between the real manual and auto, not which type of auto.

[Poochie]

Originally Posted by chris719

I'll just buy a 6MT since they will still have it for one more generation. Do I think DCT is better than the auto? Yeah, but it's a minor difference in most cases. In my opinion, the largest difference is between the real manual and auto, not which type of auto.

I don't think one is better than the other, they both have their pros and cons.

I feel like it's an emotional choice but should not be taken lightly, when you're blowing over 60k USD for a toy.

Honestly, if BMW didn't offer a manual option anymore, I wouldn't have any interest in them and they kind of know that also.

The DCT would be nice if you could have both but I'm only able to house one car at a time, so the third pedal option would be my choice, God willing..

[///AVM]

Originally Posted by Davil

This finally confirms my suspicions. I change gears for car control. You change gears for another reason entirely. No judgement but we have very different expectations here.

Davil

I am trying to follow along with all the perspectives and it is really unclear to me what exactly is being discussed? Stated differently, what I am missing?

If a driver prefers driving in automatic mode, great, DCT is obviously for them. What I do not understand is why any driver would feel they are giving anything up in choosing DCT manual mode over a true MT when it comes to performance?

Yes, I own a Porsche with PDK but, for purposes of discussion, it really does not matter if we are referring to PDK or DCT.

If you do not mind, I want to provide a few bullet points and, perhaps, you could then tell me what I am missing in the discussion.

- PDK/DCT manual mode allows driver shift point control, just as with a true MT. From my perspective, this represents the single most important aspect of PDK/DCT manual mode.

- The difference between shifting in PDK/DCT manual mode and true MT is that, in the latter, the driver controls the clutch. In the former the computer controls the clutch.

- PDK/DCT manual mode shifts are essentially instantaneous and far quicker than any human can shift in a true MT.

- PDK/DCT manual mode allows 'power shifting,' whereby the driver can retain full throttle and shift. To my knowledge - within the Porsche lineup - only the GT2/GT3 allows for power shifting (aka 'no-lift-shifting') with their true MT. Not sure any BMW true MT offers such option?

- There are several other benefits to PDK/DCT manual mode. For example, impossible to 'money shift;' computer will automatically downshift to prevent stall, which is nice feature when slowing and coming to a stop; etc.

Some might enjoy the engagement of the third pedal (clutch) and manually moving through the gear box, which is just about the ONLY reason I can envision why anyone would prefer a true MT over PDK/DCT manual mode. Even still, the driver can control shifts with shifter (or paddles) to retain engagement similar to moving through the gear box. Personally, the MT fanboy in me retains interest in engagement the shifter offers over paddles.

So, performance with the PDK/DCT manual mode exceeds anything a true MT has to offer. . . is it worth giving that up for access to a third pedal (clutch)?

I am very open to any perspective I might be missing in the current discussion.

///AVM

[BigKutta]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

Davil

I am trying to follow along with all the perspectives and it is really unclear to me what exactly is being discussed? Stated differently, what I am missing?

If a driver prefers driving in automatic mode, great, DCT is obviously for them. What I do not understand is why any driver would feel they are giving anything up in choosing DCT manual mode over a true MT when it comes to performance?

Yes, I own a Porsche with PDK but, for purposes of discussion, it really does not matter if we are referring to PDK or DCT.

If you do not mind, I want to provide a few bullet points and, perhaps, you could then tell me what I am missing in the discussion.

- PDK/DCT manual mode allows driver shift point control, just as with a true MT. From my perspective, this represents the single most important aspect of PDK/DCT manual mode.

- The difference between shifting in PDK/DCT manual mode and true MT is that, in the latter, the driver controls the clutch. In the former the computer controls the clutch.

- PDK/DCT manual mode shifts are essentially instantaneous and far quicker than any human can shift in a true MT.

- PDK/DCT manual mode allows 'power shifting,' whereby the driver can retain full throttle and shift. To my knowledge - within the Porsche lineup - only the GT2/GT3 allows for power shifting (aka 'no-lift-shifting') with their true MT. Not sure any BMW true MT offers such option?

- There are several other benefits to PDK/DCT manual mode. For example, impossible to 'money shift;' computer will automatically downshift to prevent stall, which is nice feature when slowing and coming to a stop; etc.

Some might enjoy the engagement of the third pedal (clutch) and manually moving through the gear box, which is just about the ONLY reason I can envision why anyone would prefer a true MT over PDK/DCT manual mode. Even still, the driver can control shifts with shifter (or paddles) to retain engagement similar to moving through the gear box. Personally, the MT fanboy in me retains interest in engagement the shifter offers over paddles.

So, performance with the PDK/DCT manual mode exceeds anything a true MT has to offer. . . is it worth giving that up for access to a third pedal (clutch)?

I am very open to any perspective I might be missing in the current discussion.

///AVM

Great summary. This is also the reason why the DCT is a $2,900 (!!) option in the M2 and pretty much the only available trans on most supercars.

[TrentMeister]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

Davil

I am trying to follow along with all the perspectives and it is really unclear to me what exactly is being discussed? Stated differently, what I am missing?

If a driver prefers driving in automatic mode, great, DCT is obviously for them. What I do not understand is why any driver would feel they are giving anything up in choosing DCT manual mode over a true MT when it comes to performance?

Yes, I own a Porsche with PDK but, for purposes of discussion, it really does not matter if we are referring to PDK or DCT.

If you do not mind, I want to provide a few bullet points and, perhaps, you could then tell me what I am missing in the discussion.

- PDK/DCT manual mode allows driver shift point control, just as with a true MT. From my perspective, this represents the single most important aspect of PDK/DCT manual mode.

- The difference between shifting in PDK/DCT manual mode and true MT is that, in the latter, the driver controls the clutch. In the former the computer controls the clutch.

- PDK/DCT manual mode shifts are essentially instantaneous and far quicker than any human can shift in a true MT.

- PDK/DCT manual mode allows 'power shifting,' whereby the driver can retain full throttle and shift. To my knowledge - within the Porsche lineup - only the GT2/GT3 allows for power shifting (aka 'no-lift-shifting') with their true MT. Not sure any BMW true MT offers such option?

- There are several other benefits to PDK/DCT manual mode. For example, impossible to 'money shift;' computer will automatically downshift to prevent stall, which is nice feature when slowing and coming to a stop; etc.

Some might enjoy the engagement of the third pedal (clutch) and manually moving through the gear box, which is just about the ONLY reason I can envision why anyone would prefer a true MT over PDK/DCT manual mode. Even still, the driver can control shifts with shifter (or paddles) to retain engagement similar to moving through the gear box. Personally, the MT fanboy in me retains interest in engagement the shifter offers over paddles.

So, performance with the PDK/DCT manual mode exceeds anything a true MT has to offer. . . is it worth giving that up for access to a third pedal (clutch)?

I am very open to any perspective I might be missing in the current discussion.

///AVM

It's just not the same. Less emotion. Less danger.

There's very little learning curve with dct. In the 6mt I feel like I'm it's master, and I absolutely did not feel that way when I bought it.

In a dct:

No bad shifts to make you want to do better next time.(emotion)

No perfect shifts to strive for.(A goal while driving+emotion)

No dropping the clutch at a stop light.(emotion+danger)

No clutch kicks mid corner.(emotion+danger)

No feeling of danger while taking your hand off the wheel to hit a downshift coming into a corner quickly while doing the three pedal dance.(emotion+danger)

I would also bet money that the s55 has better sound character with the 6mt. (emotion)

But talking straight performance, hands down dct.

[///AVM]

Originally Posted by LBbluem2

It's just not the same. Less emotion. Less danger.

There's very little learning curve with dct. In the 6mt I feel like I'm it's master, and I absolutely did not feel that way when I bought it.

In a dct:

No bad shifts to make you want to do better next time.(emotion)

No perfect shifts to strive for.(A goal while driving+emotion)

No dropping the clutch at a stop light.(emotion+danger)

No clutch kicks mid corner.(emotion+danger)

No feeling of danger while taking your hand off the wheel to hit a downshift coming into a corner quickly while doing the three pedal dance.(emotion+danger)

I would also bet money that the s55 has better sound character with the 6mt. (emotion)

But talking straight performance, hands down dct.

LB

I 100% understand the 'emotion' you reference and I was alluding to with use of the term 'engagement.' As a former MT fanboy, I am not about to discount the intangibles. If anyone prefers the emotion or engagement or intangibles of a true MT then there is nothing I, nor anyone can say about the PDK or DCT that will suffice in shifting opinion or preference.

My prior post was in reference to mostly PERFORMANCE. However, I find the ability to control shift points, power shift . . . and access to a shifter to simulate the gearbox more than engaging and emotional. I do not miss the clutch at all, and would never sacrifice my desire or ability to control shift points and wring out a sport car engine.

Not sure I embrace the 'danger' you reference, although I certainly maximize the term 'spirited.' Regarding the sound, not sure a wrung-out PDK/DCT in manual mode sounds any different than it would with a true MT?

///AVM

[PLF69]

Entertaining thread.

After driving my DCT M2 and a MT M2 back to back, I will say the MT is more enagaging !

Everyone's situation is different and in my case what I gain going DCT outweights what I lose but I will admit you do lose some engagement.

Very curious what these new ZF8 will feel like but unless they are DCT'ish I would be ready to go back to MT or by then I'll be ready to jump to a PDK

[TrentMeister]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

LB

I 100% understand the 'emotion' you reference and I was alluding to with use of the term 'engagement.' As a former MT fanboy, I am not about to discount the intangibles. If anyone prefers the emotion or engagement or intangibles of a true MT then there is nothing I, nor anyone can say about the PDK or DCT that will suffice in shifting opinion or preference.

My prior post was in reference to mostly PERFORMANCE. However, I find the ability to control shift points, power shift . . . and access to a shifter to simulate the gearbox more than engaging and emotional. I do not miss the clutch at all, and would never sacrifice my desire or ability to control shift points and wring out a sport car engine.

Not sure I embrace the 'danger' you reference, although I certainly maximize the term 'spirited.' Regarding the sound, not sure a wrung-out PDK/DCT in manual mode sounds any different than it would with a true MT?

///AVM

Without a shadow of a doubt you are right about sheer performance.

When I drove the dct m2c at mtown I was the last guy on the road and showed back up to the dealership with a police helicopter circling overhead.

I don't doubt it was because of me and how fast I was going in all those dct cars.

The dct makes the car so much faster it's actually MORE dangerous/spirited when I think about it.

Having the 6mt keeps me a little slower and a little further from Johnny Law's watchful eye.

And with the sound:

the longer gears add to the grunt of the engine

more time between gear changes to hear pops'n such

also always having to get back on boost between gears makes cool boost noises I don't think are practical to make in a dct

As well as the weird sounds that happen from misuse of the clutch which you don't want, but are there anyways.

[Moflow]

Originally Posted by xxyion

One of these days maybe someone will develop a system where its auto when you want it, but when you switch to manual mode, a third pedal descends down and you have to clutch yourself lol.

Man, ever since I heard about how Porsche allows you to "clutch in" by pulling both paddles on their PDK, i've been thinking such a system would be possible.

Mechanically, the car would be a dual clutch unit, and signals would still be sent electronically to the transmission. But rather than paddle shifters, a manufacturer could just stick something like this between the front two seats, after all, the method of sending an electronic signal isn't really important.


There would be a clutch pedal, but it wouldn't be strictly necessary to use when shifting gears or getting away from a stop. However it would provide an override (like pulling both paddles on a PDK.) Obviously, it would be electronic in that case as well so getting a natural feeling (and having the clutches engage/disengage smoothly rather than quickly) would be the main challenge. Modern racing sims setups have pretty good clutches though, provided you want the high end stuff. There's literally an industry built up trying to figure out how to do this for video games.



With such a system, drivers would get pretty close to the engagement of driving a manual transmission, while still having all the benefits of an auto (go into auto mode at the touch of a button) and manufacturers would crucially only have to offer one transmission type for the car, which is all they've wanted all along. Mounting a bunch of junk between the seats and under the steering wheel is a lot easier than designing a car around taking multiple transmissions.