[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by capt_and

If the DCT was so great, why did they use the ZF in their race car? Why does the new M5 have the ZF? DCT is old tech, this comes from a BMW exec. They probably threw in the DCT into the M2 to make it closer to its M3/M4 siblings. The next generation of M car will probably be ZF.

http://www.thedrive.com/news/9582/bm...-their-way-out

Are you referring to the M235i? They used the ZF8 because it is less expensive. Unlike most race cars (GT3 and up) The M235i is basically a production car with a stripped interior, brake/suspension upgrade, and safety upgrades. The exterior changes are all bolt-on. That car is targeted at privately run racing teams on a limited budget. All serious race cars run sequential boxes, which have more in common with a DCT than they do the ZF8. They also cost nearly as much as a new M2

Gearboxes are expensive to develop, and BMW doesn't develop their own. Combine this with the limited market for DCT transmissions (compared to traditional AT), and you have a circumstance where no one makes a DCT that is rated for the torque levels the M5 puts out.

Technically, a DCT transmission is superior to a traditional AT, but there are fewer DCT applications, so the net cost of development is higher. As they say, the answer to 99 out of 100 question is: money.

[champignon]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

As they say, the answer to 99 out of 100 question is: money.

100/100

[bartginger]

Originally Posted by Lucky1

This couldn't be more "bang" on.
Most sterile experience I've had in such a fast car. Merging on an onramp with the 8AT was an incredible exercise in efficiency and sterility. No fanfare whatsoever. Almost like driving a Tesla sensation wise.

Its a masterpiece of NVH and steering noise reduction in its own way, especially those crisp accurate computer controlled shifts. But a sports car with lots of excitement it is not.

Almost jizzed myself though coming off the offramp and experiencing the 8AT downshift perfectly through every single gear on the way down to 1st. What a transmission. Like to see a human driver do that in a 6MT (not that you need to but still).

Exactly my experience, and I owned one (an M235i). Such a frustrating vehicle. So ruthless and effective and so incredibly numb and without an ounce of steering or chassis feel. Once I drove an M2, I had to make the swap regardless of the price. And it was a lot. And worth it.

[capt_and]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

Are you referring to the M235i? They used the ZF8 because it is less expensive. Unlike most race cars (GT3 and up) The M235i is basically a production car with a stripped interior, brake/suspension upgrade, and safety upgrades. The exterior changes are all bolt-on. That car is targeted at privately run racing teams on a limited budget. All serious race cars run sequential boxes, which have more in common with a DCT than they do the ZF8. They also cost nearly as much as a new M2

Gearboxes are expensive to develop, and BMW doesn't develop their own. Combine this with the limited market for DCT transmissions (compared to traditional AT), and you have a circumstance where no one makes a DCT that is rated for the torque levels the M5 puts out.

Technically, a DCT transmission is superior to a traditional AT, but there are fewer DCT applications, so the net cost of development is higher. As they say, the answer to 99 out of 100 question is: money.

I agree to everything said. However, I will add that even though the dct was existing tech, they went with the zf8. Even the 135i had a dct so I’m not sure price point for the dct is a factor. You are right though, Porsche makes a terrific dual clutch transmission that can handle tons of power. That’s because they wanted to and they could afford to. In terms of BMW, all their factory race cars have a sequential gear box or the zf8. My thought is that they chose the zf8 for the M235i because they designed the car for 24 hr races. I am guessing that the dct wouldn’t stand up to that punishment and they didn’t want to spend a lot of money to develop a gearbox that costs more than the car.

[heavyD^2]

Originally Posted by stefan

Absolutely. It's max torque rating is 768lbft. And I believe the 6mt is somewhere around 650.

It's better than dct in all scenarios except maybe the most aggressive situations. But even that is improving DCT is dead. Kinda funny to see auto drivers defending one auto box vs another though.

I don’t know about that. The Porsche PDK is still the best automatic transmission in any production car. I think DCT’s will still be prominent with manufacturers that build performance numbers cars like the GTR as they make for easy launch control and the fastest acceleration times.

[akkando]

Originally Posted by Schnell B58

Would I be insane trading a '17 M240i for a '19 M2C?

Love the S55 (though not the sound) and maybe I'm in the minority, but I really like the larger M2C grilles and styling cues. I'm just about ready to pull the trigger but I feel a little foolish trading an M240i that is barely two years old for an M2C and shelling out a pretty good chunk of cash to do so.

Maybe wait for MY20 and see how you feel.

[GoneIn4Secs]

This is not even a question, m2 blows it out of the water!

Its an exceptipnally well made balanced car

[pal]

I will use the words of Car & Driver magazine to summarize the last 22 pages.

“The M240i’s greatest achievement is that it doesn’t feel like a compromise next to the M2, but rather makes its own case as a more usable and more comfortable alternative for less money. If you plan to spend many weekends working out at a racetrack, by all means stretch for the M2. If you’re just looking for a lively driving companion for daily commutes and weekend getaways, the M240i is the better M car for that job.”

Also, I am thrilled that the M2C gets the S55 and that he B58 exists. It means that the next M2 will have at least 400hp and gets the goodness from everything learned from these two great motors.

[stefan]

Originally Posted by pal

I will use the words of Car & Driver magazine to summarize the last 22 pages.

“The M240i’s greatest achievement is that it doesn’t feel like a compromise next to the M2, but rather makes its own case as a more usable and more comfortable alternative for less money. If you plan to spend many weekends working out at a racetrack, by all means stretch for the M2. If you’re just looking for a lively driving companion for daily commutes and weekend getaways, the M240i is the better M car for that job.”

Also, I am thrilled that the M2C gets the S55 and that he B58 exists. It means that the next M2 will have at least 400hp and gets the goodness from everything learned from these two great motors.

I don't find the 240 any more "usable" than the M2. The M2 is simply not that extreme. I do agree with you though that the S58 M2 will be something special.

[akkando]

Originally Posted by stefan

I don't find the 240 any more "usable" than the M2. The M2 is simply not that extreme. I do agree with you though that the S58 M2 will be something special.

Yeah I never get those quotes. How is the 240 a better commuter car? It costs less and is maybe slightly more comfortable, but maybe neither of those two are an issue for a buyer. I don't think I would like my morning commute more if my suspension was 20 percent more comfortable, in fact it might make it that much more boring.

otherwise it's the same. Maybe exhaust loudness is a factor for some? This just seems like a case of car reviewers are not actually buyers. Would they really jump in the 240 over an M2 on their commutes if given the choice? I doubt it.

My co worker wants to buy an M after driving my M2 but is settling for a 340 or 240. The reason is price. I told him to get a used m235 but his wife will not allow a used car.

[pal]

Originally Posted by stefan

I don't find the 240 any more "usable" than the M2. The M2 is simply not that extreme. I do agree with you though that the S58 M2 will be something special.

I believe C&D is using the term usable broadly. If we use the interior space and trunk space metrics, they are both equivalent. But, the M240i can be had with AWD making it more “usable” for regions with inclement weather. A softer and more compliant suspension makes it “usable” for a wider audience, etc.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by capt_and

I agree to everything said. However, I will add that even though the dct was existing tech, they went with the zf8. Even the 135i had a dct so I’m not sure price point for the dct is a factor. You are right though, Porsche makes a terrific dual clutch transmission that can handle tons of power. That’s because they wanted to and they could afford to. In terms of BMW, all their factory race cars have a sequential gear box or the zf8. My thought is that they chose the zf8 for the M235i because they designed the car for 24 hr races. I am guessing that the dct wouldn’t stand up to that punishment and they didn’t want to spend a lot of money to develop a gearbox that costs more than the car.

I'm sorry, but you're still missing the fundamental reason they went with the ZF8. It had nothing to do with DCT vs ZF8 on a technical basis.

The M235i Racing is a production M235i that is then race prepped at minimal expense. Just look at the exterior: they bolted on panels over the existing bodywork, rather than replacing body panels.

Yes, the DCT is existing technology, but it was never put into the production M235i. It was never a choice between using the ZF8 or DCT, it was a choice between using the production transmission, or developing a bespoke solution for the race car. The costs involved are very, very different. From here, we have to examine whether it would even make sense to do so.

The M235i Racing was developed for a single-make series. This meant that BMW was setting their own performance target. Given that the road car did not have a DCT, this would have meant allocating the entire cost of the DCT/M235i mating development to the M235i Racing program.

Ultimately, the M235i Racing has nothing at all to do with the relative merits of the DCT vs ZF8. We can't infer anything at all from BMW's choice, because the choice between ZF8 and DCT was not on equal footing. I'm certain the DCT was never even considered. Why would it be, given that the car will only ever compete with itself?

[tennisfreak]

I'm currently driving a M240i and love the car.

I have a Dinan Stage 1 tune on it and there is literally too much power for the tires.

But I'm really thinking about trading it in for the new M2 Competition.

My M240i needs more rubber and its really hard getting bigger tires on that car.

I think the stiffer springs and wider rubber on the M2 would be great.

Main reason I chose the M240i over the M2 was the motor (along with price).

Now that the M2 has a better motor with more potential I dont mind paying the price premium.

[AlpsRider]

Originally Posted by tennisfreak

I'm currently driving a M240i and love the car.

I have a Dinan Stage 1 tune on it and there is literally too much power for the tires.

But I'm really thinking about trading it in for the new M2 Competition.

My M240i needs more rubber and its really hard getting bigger tires on that car.

I think the stiffer springs and wider rubber on the M2 would be great.

Main reason I chose the M240i over the M2 was the motor (along with price).

Now that the M2 has a better motor with more potential I dont mind paying the price premium.

I have a M235i which has been a great car. I agree about that the tires are way too small. I couldn't take it anymore and upgraded to BBS CI-R wheels and MPS S4 tires. They are the only perfectly offset wheels I could find without going custom. I run 235/35/19 and 265/30/19, that solved the sliding problem. The car is much more stable. It also tricks the electronic struts into being more controlled, it corners more flat in comfort mode.

I did order an M2 Competition. My car is 3 years old and I couldn't resist a new toy. If you just need more grip then you can save some money...I'll even sell you mine!

[baege]

Originally Posted by tennisfreak

I'm currently driving a M240i and love the car.

I have a Dinan Stage 1 tune on it and there is literally too much power for the tires.

But I'm really thinking about trading it in for the new M2 Competition.

My M240i needs more rubber and its really hard getting bigger tires on that car.

I think the stiffer springs and wider rubber on the M2 would be great.

Main reason I chose the M240i over the M2 was the motor (along with price).

Now that the M2 has a better motor with more potential I dont mind paying the price premium.

not sure the s55 is an upgrade over a b58
more power for sure but the b58 is such a smooth eager engine
it sounds better and has less lag than the s55...
now the s58 might be an engine worth making rhe switch for

[chris719]

Originally Posted by baege

not sure the s55 is an upgrade over a b58
more power for sure but the b58 is such a smooth eager engine
it sounds better and has less lag than the s55...
now the s58 might be an engine worth making rhe switch for

Dynos of both engines show the S55 (ZCP) makes similar torque at 2500 RPM and then considerably more through the rest of the range. It's only lag relative to B58 if you consider that it ends up making more, yes.

[AlpsRider]

There are a few reasons where the M235/M240 makes sense. My M235i is really fast, no problem there. The ZF8 is a super smooth transmission capable of allowing my M235i to get 32+ miles per gallon on the highway. The M2 will never get this kind of mileage. Most enthusiasts don't care about fuel efficiency but some commuters might find a fast car with efficiency a plus.

Another point of difference is the adjustable suspension on the M235/M240. It does allow a more compliant ride at times which some might like. In my opinion it just isn't that great. It's one of the reasons I've ordered a M2C. I prefer a standard non-adjustable suspension even if it is a bit more jarring. It just feels more refined overall. I think there are some systems out there like "magnetic ride" that might be ok, I can't speak to those system.

[stefan]

Originally Posted by AlpsRider

There are a few reasons where the M235/M240 makes sense. My M235i is really fast, no problem there. The ZF8 is a super smooth transmission capable of allowing my M235i to get 32+ miles per gallon on the highway. The M2 will never get this kind of mileage. Most enthusiasts don't care about fuel efficiency but some commuters might find a fast car with efficiency a plus. .

I think you are stretching.
http://www.fuelly.com/car/bmw/m235i
http://www.fuelly.com/car/bmw/m2

[AlpsRider]

Originally Posted by stefan

I think you are stretching.
http://www.fuelly.com/car/bmw/m235i
http://www.fuelly.com/car/bmw/m2

Since I have a 235i, I can tell you that on a trip in eco mode I've been able to get 33 mpg on a tank. I didn't stretch anything.

[tranck]

I have 13.5K on the clock - roughly 10K my miles - always in either Sport or Sport+
My computer in the car says that I am getting 24 MPG fwiw - I have never reset this function.

[AlpsRider]

Originally Posted by tranck

I have 13.5K on the clock - roughly 10K my miles - always in either Sport or Sport+
My computer in the car says that I am getting 24 MPG fwiw - I have never reset this function.

Of course, my overall fuel economy is about the same. That is because most of us can't keep our foot off of the gas pedal. I'm talking about on a trip when there is nothing to do but sit there. I drive like crazy most of the time. On a long trip on relatively straight roads there is no fun in it, I just set the cruise control in eco mode and save gas.
Here are some reasons that the M235i with the ZF8 can get this kind of mileage and the M2 can't.
The 33mpg that I quoted was with the A/C off, which makes a big difference. Most people don't pay any attention and leave it on all the time. It sucks gas.
M235i has a less aggressive tune
M235i has a heavier fly wheel ?
M235i has smaller wheels/tires which = less friction and perhaps less weight
M235i has a lower air drag coefficient then the M2
The biggest factor is the ZF8 which is incredibly smart at shifting, for fuel economy it is light years ahead of the DCT in the M2.
In Eco mode the A/C is also throttled back if you are using it.

I've ordered an M2C so clearly fuel efficiency is not my thing. My point was that if you are commuting with the M235i without heavy traffic you can get decent fuel economy with the advantage of a lot of power if you want it.

[DanG]

I owned an M235i for four years before buying an M2. There is no comparison. The M2 has much better feeling of the road and can handle curves much better. I wasn't planning on trading in my M235i. I was in for a service appointment and my sales advisor grabbed me and told me they had an M2 that a customer back out on. He said I had to drive it. After a 30 mile test drive, I had to have it.

By the way, I would take a DCT over the ZF8 any day.