08-25-2016, 08:01 AM | #23 |
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m2 is the modern E46 m3, period.
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08-25-2016, 08:52 AM | #24 |
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Kind of.
One of the defining parts of the experience in the e46 M3 is the high revving, high hp, low torque , instantaneous throttle response engine-- completely different in character than the M2's engine. I'd say that more accurately the M2 is the spiritual successor to the e46 M3-- "right" size, fun driving dynamics (something BMW forgot about between then and e46m and M2, except for the very limited production 1M).
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08-25-2016, 12:25 PM | #25 | |
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08-25-2016, 12:50 PM | #26 |
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That would... defy physics.
See 3:13 in this video
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09-03-2016, 04:56 PM | #27 |
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Completely agree with you if this was the '90s. Much of this is mitigated now, above 3k RPMs there is no discernable delay in throttle. It isn't the F80's anti-lag, but it's close.
Also we are talking about the e46 M3 which had little to nothing under 3k RPM's, so I should have prefaced my answer with "above 3k RPMs for both cars". I also should have noted that my e46 M3 had a ZHP steering rack, as they were much better. |
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09-05-2016, 07:07 AM | #28 | |
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Certainly it's a different thing than the wait wait wait wait wait POWWWER turbo cars of the 80s/90s. But, that video (above) was about a 2017 991 911's turbo-- pretty current tech! The mechanism by which a turbo works creates throttle delay. |
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09-05-2016, 03:45 PM | #29 | |
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Of course, all this is untrue in efficient mode. |
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09-05-2016, 08:31 PM | #30 |
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The f80/2 M3/4s I drove on track must have been broken, as they absolutely had lag.
The e46 had awesome throttle response at any RPM, including sub 3000. What it doesn't have is a ton of torque there. What it does have is an incredibly linear powerband, which, combined with the awesome throttle response, makes it easy to meter in the exact amount of power you want to the wheels. |
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09-06-2016, 01:03 PM | #31 |
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Gonna post this quote here too (source: here):
"The BMW M2 and M4 share some similar DNA, but they’re pretty different cars. The brand-new BMW M2 is much smaller, has less power and is slower than the BMW M4. It’s also around $10,000 cheaper to start. But that isn’t to say that the BMW M2 is the poor man’s BMW M4, because it isn’t. The BMW M2 makes 365 hp and gets from 0-60 in about 4.3 seconds, so that’s nothing to laugh at. The M2 is for an entirely different customer, one that would choose the M2 over the M4, regardless of money. That type of customer that grew up loving compact sportscars and to whom the sheer driving experience is at the top of the preferences list. That’s because “smaller, less powerful and slower” doesn’t tell the whole story. The M2 might be all of those things, but it’s also lighter than the M4, by anywhere from 55 to 200 lbs – depends who you ask – and more nimble, making it more fun on winding roads. It has sharper steering and a more tossable chassis. The BMW M2 is the car for people who prefer the E46 M3 to the F82 M4. It’s the car that old-school BMW enthusiasts have been begging BMW for, for what seems like an eternity now. The BMW M2 isn’t going to be cross-shopped with the M4, as it’s a vastly different car with a different focus for different customers. The M2 is inherently compromised in the name of fun and dynamics, as its ride is more uncomfortable and its cabin more cramped than the M4’s, but it’s most certainly more entertaining. So the BMW M2 is built for customers who value fun and excitement over outright performance. The same people who bought an E46 M3 back in the day are the same people who will buy the BMW M2. But that’s not to say that the BMW M4 is worse than the M2. It’s just different. [...] Maybe the M4 is a bit more disconnected than the M2, not giving its driver the genuine sense of feel and connection on the same level as its new younger brother. [...] So if you’re the kind of person who values grin-inducing fun over raw performance and are willing to sacrifice a bit of comfort and usability for it, then the BMW M2 is the car for you."I subscribe to the "from E46 M3 to M2" reasoning. If you liked driving an E46 M3 (forget for a moment the clunky SMGII tranny), you can't go wrong with the M2, notwithstanding the fact that it's a car from a different era with different engine layout.
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09-09-2016, 12:15 PM | #32 | |
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09-12-2016, 03:17 PM | #33 | |
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Obviously it wasn't as fast as some FI models (like the M2), but it wasn't a slow car off the line either. It was just an engine that really rewarded you for higher RPMs. Loved that car.
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10-11-2016, 12:44 PM | #34 |
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The M235i will handily outpace an E46 M3 CSL on track. The M2 just ladles on further gravy.
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10-29-2016, 04:25 AM | #35 |
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N55 and lag: Still a turbo..
See picture 4 and peters's comment when scrolling down http://www.bimmertoday.de/2009/07/15...ang-automatik/ Unfortunately the conditions (e.g. engine speed) to reach max. torque within 2.5 seconds was not stated. Anyway, official proof from BMW for turbo lag at least in the lower areas. Nowadays such graphs would never be off. published anymore.. Sorry is in German but graphs are speeking for themselves (base N55 with max. torque of 400Nm / stated when N55 was introduced in 2009) Last edited by mmmpassion; 10-29-2016 at 04:32 AM.. |
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10-29-2016, 11:41 PM | #36 |
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What one perceives as throttle response is composed of many things. Take a highly strung NA engine with torque starting to peak around 4k rpm and power peaking around 7.5k rpm.
You're at 2000 rpm and floor it. It feels like something is instantly happening, because you don't have as much intake dead space, turbo inertia etc. but nothing is happening unless you had the foresight to drop a gear or two and put the rpm into the engine's power band. If you didn't, you get nothing, nothing, and then gradually peaking acceleration. Do the same thing in a modern turbo charged car, especially with a twin scroll turbo and you'll get nothing, then a swell of torque that pushes you along. If you had the foresight to drop a gear or two into the power band, you get effectively instant shove and you're off. What I object to is this idea that it's ok for NA engines to have an (often small) optimum power band, but turbo charged cars can't. It's an unfair comparison. I've seen plenty of rolling drag races between NA and turbo cars. Typically, both cars being in their optimum power bands, and there is no difference in how both cars get going. This 'lag' thing gets thrown around a lot but I think that it's important to be clear where and how there is lag. If you're in the wrong gear, it will take time for boost to build, just like in an NA car it will take time for RPM to build, no one calls that 'NA lag'. All things being equal, I'd take a 2000rpm 4th gear pull in an M2 vs an e92 M3 any day of the week. |
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11-29-2016, 07:32 AM | #37 |
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haven't driven the M2 but I can point out a few things about e46 M3.
Pros: Classic M looks Best 3 series interior ever (IMO) Engine screams and pulls strong all the way to the redline and it feels and sounds good. Steering on point. Better rear headroom than M4 Cons. no torque in low RPM. it gets smoked by soccer moms from light to light unless you make it scream. it's an S2000 with 4 seats. bad MPG. not that bad but still horrible. the known issues such as VANOS and rear subframe. no easy/cheap way to make it go faster. overall I miss the car and would love to have it again if I can find a clean low mileage example. Silver-gray over Imola red with MT.
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04-17-2017, 03:35 AM | #38 | |
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My new M2.
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Basically I agree with Obioban opinion except for the sentence “properly centered driver's seat: M3”, which I do not notice. To me the seat is perfectly centered. To me the M2 F87 feels stronger and more reliable. It is a great sport car. Last edited by santimartinez; 04-17-2017 at 03:41 AM.. |
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04-17-2017, 06:24 AM | #39 | |
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the car wants to you be above 3500rpm. its gonna be hard staying below 5000rpm during break-in. and my gas mileage thus far, is pretty crappy.
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04-17-2017, 06:29 AM | #40 |
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Good thread and responses.
I've driven several E46 M3s in the canyons and on the streets, and also had my friend who owns an E46 M3 drive my M2. Both of us agreed, M2 feels like a modern version of the E46 M3. Both are truly great cars. I cross shopped E46 M3s with the M2 as well, and while it would be nice to own one, I find that the M2 is faster, feels more planted/solid, and also with the modern technology much more convenient as a DD. |
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04-17-2017, 07:42 AM | #41 |
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The best cars I ever had were an ' 99 Impreza GTTurbo , '02 M3 6MT and my former 1M.
I always said an Impreza mating with an E46M3 you get a 1M more or less. An M2 is 1M s younger more modern brother imho. E46 M3 beautiful car but irl or dd the power/delivery is a bit low nowadays .... Cheers Robin |
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01-15-2018, 10:38 PM | #42 | |
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01-16-2018, 08:45 AM | #43 | |
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M2 has E46M beat by miles on the exterior styling. I owned E46m and now own an M2. I love the E46M, a big fan of the car but M2 looks better IMO. I have some pictures of my M2 and my friend's E46M parked side by side and my friend also agrees that the M2 looks better. Hopefully I can find the pictures and post them up here for a comparison soon. Overall, after owning both cars, my choice is the M2 over the E46M by a big margin.
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01-16-2018, 08:52 AM | #44 |
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Here are a few. E46M looks great but next to the M2, it almost looks like a normal E46 3 series next to the M2. Much more so in person.
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