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      01-30-2020, 11:34 AM   #1387
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One main factor is ''the driving experience'' and if it follows BMW's trend for these special models it should be on the line. Let me explain

The M3 and M4 CS were genuinely better driving and performing cars. The suspension, chassis and powertrain is just better, thats a fact.

2 problems arise as I see it, 1- The buyers capable or willing to extract and use these performance differences vs a M3/4 comp is a very very small portion of the model buyers. 2- By removing plenty of creature comfort and equipment while still increasing the price they just killed off all impulse buyers looking for the latest greatest that don't want to lose anything and your left with only a few hardcore enthousiasts willing to cope with it. Its poor product planning, Porsche GTS line up is the right way to do it, performance enhancements but access to normal/luxury options still.

The only noveltys that M2cs posess is the Adaptive Suspension, available carbon brakes and the factory tune. All the rest is more bling and show than Go I'd say.. I've said it before, what will/could save it from the same fate as its big brother is the M/T trans and that the M2 is more exciting to drive than the M3/4 from the start.
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      01-30-2020, 12:41 PM   #1388
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GimmeanM View Post
The fact that the M2CS can be had in a manual adds great value for me. I agree with Poochie, it is the alpha M2. If it were like the F80CS with DCT only I would happily be going with an M2C instead.
Same!
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      01-30-2020, 12:49 PM   #1389
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flybigjet View Post
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. It took a bit of digging since I hadn't thought about this in years, but here's a fairly comprehensive list of the differences between the e46 M3 and the e46 M3CSL. I think it's fairly significant-- and BMW obviously spent a lot of time (and engineering & production costs) to change a lot of things:

Other than the Adaptive Suspension, I honestly see the M2CS as more of a "Appearance Package" than a true performance upgrade. Yes, the parts will arguably add to the performance due to weight, but at the end, they're mostly for appearance.

As I said, we'll have to agree to disagree. I think the M2CS will be a fine car-- but it's not my cuppa as I'm not much into carbon fiber body trim, and (in my mind) I can't justify a $25k price leap from the "vanilla" M2C.

And? I can't get it in SOM, which would be a deal breaker!
Thanks for the list! I've never seen the full breakdown. I agree that we just view it differently and that won't likely change. It took more parts on the CSL to accomplish the same thing (engine tune). We don't know the full CS suspension tweaks yet past for sure the dampers, so there could be roll-bars and springs etc involved in that yet. You also forgot the neutered air-con for the CS too . The rest of the list is just cosmetic or the more extensive compromises for weight reduction (radio delete etc) - which I said is the real difference between them in scope. The CSL is legendary, I don't expect or claim the M2CS to be the same, just saying the gap is not that large. You DID get more unique changed parts for the money though, that point is certainly valid. That's my take, and not yours, and that's no worries either way! I was genuinely curious how you viewed the CSL given its hero status and from my viewpoint the similarity in treatments, and I appreciate you taking the time to elaborate on it.
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      01-30-2020, 12:56 PM   #1390
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      01-30-2020, 01:27 PM   #1391
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The springs on the CS will definitely be different than the M2C. They have to make the springs softer in order to have a more compliant ride with the adaptive suspension. The suspension is able to get stiffer by using the electronic dampers. They may have changed other suspension parts too.
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      01-30-2020, 01:36 PM   #1392
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdhotwn View Post
It took more parts on the CSL to accomplish the same thing (engine tune).
True-- but doesn't that just show what a better value the M2C is compared to the M2CS?

Also, for all their massaging, hp was only up a bit (not sure on tq)-- which shows that the M3's S54 motor was pretty much a beast right out of the box.

(Well, except for the whole "dry sump/oil scavenging" issue it had starting out....)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdhotwn View Post
You also forgot the neutered air-con for the CS too .
Ahhh, did not! I listed it as "Optional radio and air conditioning". Iirc, both were cost-neutral delete options-- you could select either or both to be left in the car. Yes, "real" race cars don't have air conditioning, but you're not going to impress your date if she's sweating her panties off on the way to dinner!

Heh.

R.

Last edited by flybigjet; 01-31-2020 at 01:16 AM..
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      01-31-2020, 12:56 AM   #1393
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      01-31-2020, 09:49 AM   #1394
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I don’t know if anyone has mentioned it, but doesn’t it seem like the CS is kinda pricey for what you get?
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      01-31-2020, 10:04 AM   #1395
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeastieBombRacing View Post
I don’t know if anyone has mentioned it, but doesn’t it seem like the CS is kinda pricey for what you get?
Nah, no one's mentioned it yet.
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      01-31-2020, 10:05 AM   #1396
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeastieBombRacing View Post
I don’t know if anyone has mentioned it, but doesn’t it seem like the CS is kinda pricey for what you get?
Every car is pricey these days. M8's for $140k, 911 Carrera S for $150k with options, etc. You basically need to have a decent trade in value car in order to reduce your loan. Plus additional cash can't hurt as well.
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      01-31-2020, 10:06 AM   #1397
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Originally Posted by Hegge View Post
Every car is pricey these days. M8's for $140k, 911 Carrera S for $150k with options, etc. You basically need to have a decent trade in value car in order to reduce your loan. Plus additional cash can't hurt as well.
I’m joking bud. There’s like 50 pages of this thread talking about it being overpriced
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      01-31-2020, 10:08 AM   #1398
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What??? You mean you all aren't paying cash???
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      01-31-2020, 10:12 AM   #1399
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What??? You mean you all aren't paying cash???
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      01-31-2020, 10:25 AM   #1400
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This is what happens in a BMW board of directors meeting:

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      02-01-2020, 06:57 AM   #1401
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlpsRider View Post
The springs on the CS will definitely be different than the M2C. They have to make the springs softer in order to have a more compliant ride with the adaptive suspension. The suspension is able to get stiffer by using the electronic dampers. They may have changed other suspension parts too.
I have the OG M2 and put on MCS suspension....it’s amazing.Not only did it vastly improve handling but I can adjust it for street and any track. The new and improved M2CS electronic dampening harkens back to the Cadillac CTSV day’s. I know it is adjustable but it decides what is best for me. Maybe I am getting old but I still like the analog method of tuning my suspension, not to mention the cost of replacement. Just MTC
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      02-01-2020, 07:16 AM   #1402
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This is what happens in a BMW board of directors meeting:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Conissah View Post
You really believe they're making a killing off 2,200, single-run vehicles?

I would say they probably just broke even on the CS, it's more a halo car of sort, than a cash cow.

The strategy behind the CS is to showcase the M2 model and by extension, the overall brand. So when the word-of-mouth spreads and it's plastered all over the cover of every automotive magazine (if print-press still exists : )and the internet, like this 60-something page thread, that keeps on giving.

That way when you ecstatically rush to your local dealer to grab one and becomes disappointed to learn that it's sold out, you'll "settle" for a massed-produced, readily-available Competition.

Either way, you're leaving with a BMW, one way or the other.
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      02-01-2020, 08:38 AM   #1403
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
You really believe they're making a killing off 2,200, single-run vehicles?

I would say they probably just broke even on the CS, it's more a halo car of sort, than a cash cow.

The strategy behind the CS is to showcase the M2 model and by extension, the overall brand. So when the word-of-mouth spreads and it's plastered all over the cover of every automotive magazine (if print-press still exists : )and the internet, like this 60-something page thread, that keeps on giving.

That way when you ecstatically rush to your local dealer to grab one and becomes disappointed to learn that it's sold out, you'll "settle" for a massed-produced, readily-available Competition.

Either way, you're leaving with a BMW, one way or the other.
I believe they will make a pretty penny on the 2200 units. North of $20mil. I think most of the development cost for most new parts is from the M2CS racecar. It was then left to the development cost associated with what we see in the recently posted video. Which I'm sure if you used the M2c as a starting point it would be pretty close.
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      02-01-2020, 09:25 AM   #1404
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Quote:
Originally Posted by medphysdave View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
You really believe they're making a killing off 2,200, single-run vehicles?

I would say they probably just broke even on the CS, it's more a halo car of sort, than a cash cow.

The strategy behind the CS is to showcase the M2 model and by extension, the overall brand. So when the word-of-mouth spreads and it's plastered all over the cover of every automotive magazine (if print-press still exists : )and the internet, like this 60-something page thread, that keeps on giving.

That way when you ecstatically rush to your local dealer to grab one and becomes disappointed to learn that it's sold out, you'll "settle" for a massed-produced, readily-available Competition.

Either way, you're leaving with a BMW, one way or the other.
I believe they will make a pretty penny on the 2200 units. North of $20mil. I think most of the development cost for most new parts is from the M2CS racecar. It was then left to the development cost associated with what we see in the recently posted video. Which I'm sure if you used the M2c as a starting point it would be pretty close.
I'm not sure what their profit margin is per car but this is considered a new model, so you have to also factor in the cost of engineering, testing, tooling, manufacturing, regional standards and emission approval, crash-testing, accounting, ect.

They can't just say to regulators; "Oh, it's just a parts-bin Competition, so just go ahead and rubber-stamp it." A new model is treated as such and there is a lot of new cost involved in getting it green-lit.

For them to undertake the task of developing a new model for such a short run, has to have some rhyme behind the reason because logically, a typically manufactured vehicle amortizes it's program cost over a larger numbers of vehicles built and sold.

A limited-production model such the CS and CS Racing might not be as profitable, if at all but it does a great deal in raising the profile of the brand because it highlights the fact that they now offer a factory-built race car and the CS being an ultra-M2 road car, attracts attention to the marque and increased awareness of the massed-produced model range.
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      02-01-2020, 10:13 AM   #1405
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Look at the volume of 2 Series sold (a decreasing segment since 2016) at just over 8,000 units in 2019. It has already been stated that BMW has very thin profit margins on it's entry level vehicles. With the increased testing and development expense for the M2 CS (and M2 CS Racing) and at only 2,200 units total world wide, it is a drop in the bucket compared to the 70,000 X3 units that were sold in 2019. Even at the price we are seeing for the CS they can't be making much money on the whole project the volume just isn't there to support it; probably just trying to break even.
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      02-01-2020, 12:47 PM   #1406
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Very true
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      02-01-2020, 05:29 PM   #1407
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GimmeanM View Post
Look at the volume of 2 Series sold (a decreasing segment since 2016) at just over 8,000 units in 2019. It has already been stated that BMW has very thin profit margins on it's entry level vehicles. With the increased testing and development expense for the M2 CS (and M2 CS Racing) and at only 2,200 units total world wide, it is a drop in the bucket compared to the 70,000 X3 units that were sold in 2019. Even at the price we are seeing for the CS they can't be making much money on the whole project the volume just isn't there to support it; probably just trying to break even.
Gimmean

Thank you for sharing that information. I knew SUVs were popular, but I had no idea they represented that number of sales for BMW.

It is amazing that car manufacturers even make cars anymore given the disproportionate rate SUVs are selling.

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      02-02-2020, 07:47 AM   #1408
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The M2 CS is largely a parts bin car (a very nice car, but mostly from the parts bin nevertheless). I think some of you may be overestimating how much money BMW put into research and design. I don't know that I'd describe it as a cash cow for BMW, but I highly doubt they did this project to break even or to realize only marginal profits. That just doesn't score well on the believability scale.
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