[Poochie]

Originally Posted by PackPride85

The B58 has redesigned flex sections at the top and bottom of the pipe. Also, since both the B58/S58 are air to water, the charge pipe is now only mounted to items on the "engine package" itself (direct from turbo hot side to throttle body).

With air to air, you had the TB flange part connected to the engine package which can move, and the IC side connected to your IC which was fixed to the front of the car. The flex section was supposed to alleviate the engine movement and fixed IC, but it doesn't flex nearly as much as it looks like it should which puts more pressure on the flange as the weakest point.

All we know based on the data we have from these forums is that there is some kind of statistical risk that it will break on the N55. No idea what that probability is since we don't know the number of warranty claims vs total cars sold. It's likely to be a low number though. There's nothing wrong with not upgrading it based on the low risk, but there's also NOTHING wrong with using an aluminum replacement that can properly flex in the middle with the silicone coupler.

Yes, I studied the B58 design, I'm aware of the changes.

However, plastic is still used over aluminum.

Believe me, I'm always shitting on BMW for they perpetual cost-cutting but I don't believe that's the reason they used plastic for their charge-pipes.

I mean, it would probably cost just as of much, maybe even less, to use aluminum, over having to mould plastic, into a piece that has to sustain substantially boost pressure.

[akkando]

Originally Posted by Poochie

Fine, you found the one vehicle that doesn't use plastic, so 99.999999999% of cars does, including the Nissan GTR.

Nissan has been using turbo-chargers since the beginning of time, I believe they know a thing or two about its efficiency.

Honestly, I rather have to change 10 different OEM plastic pipes, that put some heat-soaking, no-name, aluminum piece.

I'm on 32,573 miles and 4 years, with a Dinan stage 1 and my pipe is fine. So, like, whatever..

I'm not seeing a lot of people with aluminum pipes complaining of heat soak or problems. Having one installed as I type this.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by Poochie

Yes, I studied the B58 design, I'm aware of the changes.

However, plastic is still used over aluminum.

Believe me, I'm always shitting on BMW for they perpetual cost-cutting but I don't believe that's the reason they used plastic for their charge-pipes.

I mean, it would probably cost just as of much, maybe even less, to use aluminum, over having to mould plastic, into a piece that has to sustain substantially boost pressure.

There is no way plastic would be more expensive than aluminium. With plastic once you have a mold it is cheap and easy to mass produce. With metal your either have to have someone weld individual pieces together, or have a cast mold, then clean up the piece after casting, both of these cases would be more expensive than a plastic molded piece.

You cannot just compare the price of an aftermarket aluminium charge pipe with a factory piece and conclude that metal is cheaper.


The B58 piece is plastic, but a vastly different design in that it bolts to the throttle body and doesn't use a retention design - a huge weakness on the stock n55 charge pipe as alot of stress is put on a small amount of area on the flange, and the B58 charge pipe is made of an extremely thick plastic that drilling is difficult which is why aftermarket companies made methanol spacers instead of tapping the factory pipe despite it being thick enough to tap. So you can't just say since the B58 is plastic and its ok the n55 is ok, not an apple to apple comparison. Also plastic was used because it is cheap and easy to manufacture in a large quantity.

example how come plastic pcv pipes are so much cheaper than aluminium pipes of the same dimension, both from the same manufacturer (this can be compared unlike a bmw part known for their manufacture mark up vs. aftermarket). Exactly because plastic is easier to make.

[PackPride85]

Originally Posted by Poochie

Yes, I studied the B58 design, I'm aware of the changes.

However, plastic is still used over aluminum.

Believe me, I'm always shitting on BMW for they perpetual cost-cutting but I don't believe that's the reason they used plastic for their charge-pipes.

I mean, it would probably cost just as of much, maybe even less, to use aluminum, over having to mould plastic, into a piece that has to sustain substantially boost pressure.

No, it is much cheaper to create a plastic mold and produce high volume plastic vs cast aluminum. Engine parts have been switching to plastic since the 90s. Intake manifolds used to be cast iron, then aluminum for weight savings, then plastic once the technology improved enough to make it reliable.

The civic type R uses the K20c1 which is a brand new engine design for Honda just for the type R. Low volume so no cost savings on having to do a one piece plastic design. They designed the cast aluminum piece for the throttle body then just threw reinforced rubber hosing on the rest.

[Poochie]

Originally Posted by akkando

I'm not seeing a lot of people with aluminum pipes complaining of heat soak or problems. Having one installed as I type this.

I'm not sure if there is a way to measure how heat-soak the air temperature becomes but you can do a simple experiment, by placing a can of soda and a plastic bottle of soda in a freezer, for 20 mins or so. You'll find that liquid in the aluminum can is much colder, than its plastic counterpart. I'm sure you can deduce my point from that.

I don't expect anyone to complain either way, as long as it's not losing boost or power.. It's one of those ignorance is bliss scenarios.. Figuratively speaking.

I have no doubt that the aluminum pipe is stronger than plastic, like duh but what doesn't sit well with me, is although the pipe is robust, the flange that connects to the throttle body is still made of silicone. A part is only as strong as it's weakest link. Maybe it will hold up, over time, maybe it won't but seems kind backwards to me.

I'm not trying to play devil's advocate here, I just find it strange that no one else, expect a few unknown manufactures are the only ones pushing an aluminum charge pipe upgrade.

Had I read anywhere official that the charge pipe on the N55 requires or suggests an upgrade, well then, this debate would not even exist.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by Poochie

I'm not sure if there is a way to measure how heat-soak the air temperature becomes but you can do a simple experiment, by placing a can of soda and a plastic bottle of soda in a freezer, for 20 mins or so. You'll find that liquid in the aluminum can is much colder, than its plastic counterpart. I'm sure you can deduce my point from that.

I don't expect anyone to complain either way, as long as it's not losing boost or power.. It's one of those ignorance is bliss scenarios.. Figuratively speaking.

I have no doubt that the aluminum pipe is stronger than plastic, like duh but what doesn't sit well with me, is although the pipe is robust, the flange that connects to the throttle body is still made of silicone. A part is only as strong as it's weakest link. Maybe it will hold up, over time, maybe it won't but seems kind backwards to me.

I'm not trying to play devil's advocate here, I just find it strange that no one else, expect a few unknown manufactures are the only ones pushing an aluminum charge pipe upgrade.

Had I read anywhere official that the charge pipe on the N55 requires or suggests an upgrade, well then, this debate would not even exist.

An aluminium pop can is 1 mm thick so again a flawed comparison. Yes plastic is a better insulator but that is not the only factor. The chargepipe is cm's thick + powder coating will isolate the air inside just as well as the thin factory pipe if not better.

the flange is metal, so not sure what you're talking about. The coupler holding the two halves of the charge pipe together is reinforced silicone and held together with T-bolt clamps designed for high boost applications, not worm gear clamps. JDM cars like the rb26's run 45 psi + with these reinforced silicone couplers without issue. You will run into an issue if you use worm gear clamps. With the proper reinforced couplers and clamps you can run enough boost to blow your motor before you blow the clamp. Either way an aftermarket part is significantly stronger than the crap plastic chargepipe, which fails stock.


Again that's a pretty poor argument, what do you consider an "official" source. if you are expecting the manufacture to spoon feed you with information, clearly they wont if they are trying to play it off to avoid a recall. Why do you think bmw never addressed the rod bearings directly for the e92 m3? I don't know who else you expect to make the claim that these pipes are flawed, there is a whole community proving evidence and as a result several manufactures backed up the community. Also these companies are not unknown, they may be unknown to you but these guys have been around for awhile.

The reason why manufacturer's started making these upgraded chargepipes is because of the large amount of failures from users who tuned their cars or even from stock cars that were driven hard. In this case it is a legit issue not some snake oil licences plate coating to prevent photo radar cameras.


Honestly if you want to keep your stock chargepipe go for it, but some people actually want a solution that will 100% solve the issue instead of having a flawed car.

[Poochie]

Originally Posted by F87source

An aluminium pop can is 1 mm thick so again a flawed comparison. Yes plastic is a better insulator but that is not the only factor. The chargepipe is cm's thick + powder coating will isolate the air inside just as well as the thin factory pipe if not better.

the flange is metal, so not sure what you're talking about. The coupler holding the two halves of the charge pipe together is reinforced silicone and held together with T-bolt clamps designed for high boost applications, not worm gear clamps. JDM cars like the rb26's run 45 psi + with these reinforced silicone couplers without issue. You will run into an issue if you use worm gear clamps. With the proper reinforced couplers and clamps you can run enough boost to blow your motor before you blow the clamp.


Again that's a pretty poor argument, what do you consider an "official" source. if you are expecting the manufacture to spoon feed you with information, clearly they wont if they are trying to play it off to avoid a recall. Why do you think bmw never addressed the rod bearings directly for the e92 m3? I don't know who else you expect to make the claim that these pipes are flawed, there is a whole community proving evidence and as a result several manufactures backed up the community. Also these companies are not unknown, they may be unknown to you but these guys have been around for awhile.

The reason why manufacturer's started making these upgraded chargepipes is because of the large amount of failures from users who tuned their cars or even from stock cars that were driven hard. In this case it is a legit issue not some snake oil licences plate coating to prevent photo radar cameras.


Honestly if you want to keep your stock chargepipe go for it, but some people actually want a solution that will 100% solve the issue instead of having a flawed car.

Well, according to you guys, there is absolutely no flaws with fitting some no-name aluminum pipe.

In fact, even Jesus upgraded to an aluminum pipe, on his M2, right after his resurrection.

BMW are idiots, who doesn't do any researcher on the parts they engineer, for their vehicles and just fitted some plastic junk because they know nothing about performance, is always trying to save a buck and probably secretly hate us. Got it, let's leave it there..

I'm not swaying anyone either way, just sharing my opinion. If anyone wants to change their charge pipe, then more power to you! Go for it, no skin off my ass..:

I drive like a grade-A asshole and my charge pipe is still fine.

I still have a 100,000 mile warranty, if it breaks, I'll just take it in, grab a loaner car and go do donuts in their parking lot, while they they replace it for free.

[nioh_lbbm2]

Originally Posted by Poochie

I'm not sure if there is a way to measure how heat-soak the air temperature becomes but you can do a simple experiment, by placing a can of soda and a plastic bottle of soda in a freezer, for 20 mins or so. You'll find that liquid in the aluminum can is much colder, than its plastic counterpart. I'm sure you can deduce my point from that.

I don't expect anyone to complain either way, as long as it's not losing boost or power.. It's one of those ignorance is bliss scenarios.. Figuratively speaking.

I have no doubt that the aluminum pipe is stronger than plastic, like duh but what doesn't sit well with me, is although the pipe is robust, the flange that connects to the throttle body is still made of silicone. A part is only as strong as it's weakest link. Maybe it will hold up, over time, maybe it won't but seems kind backwards to me.

I'm not trying to play devil's advocate here, I just find it strange that no one else, expect a few unknown manufactures are the only ones pushing an aluminum charge pipe upgrade.

Had I read anywhere official that the charge pipe on the N55 requires or suggests an upgrade, well then, this debate would not even exist.

I need to chime in here with this response from you.

The air in a charge pipe is moving so fast it doesn't absorb any noticeable or possible sources of heat.

If you have a tune or 3rd party gauge you can check your IAT. There is no noticeable heat soak.

Your theory about an aluminum can is flawed because it contains an unchanging fluid in a static environment.

The fluid (air) in a charge pipe is constantly changing and is already cooled from the FMIC AND on top of that it pressurized. It would take a tremendous amount of energy to raise the temperature in the air flowing through the chargepipe which is under great velocity and pressure.

The only time heatsoak would be possible in any scenario for any car is at complete idle or super low speeds. In this case the FMIC and all associates air intake routes heat up REGARDLESS of stock or aftermarket parts because the amount of air flowing is so small

[F87source]

Originally Posted by Poochie

Well, according to you guys, there is absolutely no flaws with fitting some no-name aluminum pipe.

In fact, even Jesus upgraded to an aluminum pipe, on his M2, right after his resurrection.

BMW are idiots, who doesn't do any researcher on the parts they engineered for their vehicles and just use plastic junk because they know nothing about performance and is always trying to save a buck and probably secretly hate us. Got it, let leave it there..

I'm not swaying anyone either way, just sharing my opinion. If anyone wants to change their charge pipe, then more power to you! Go for it, no skin off my ass..:

I drive like a grade-A asshole and my charge pipe is still fine.

I still have a 100,000 mile warranty, if it breaks, I'll just take it in, grab a loaner car and go do donuts in their parking lot, while they they replace it for free.

No, who stated that aluminium charge pipes are issue free? There are flaws, some aluminium charge pipes do not fit properly and rub on the steering components. That is why I recommend CTS turbo, or if you really hate aluminium get the turner pipe https://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-5...pipe-assembly/ that has alot of silicone. Also T-bolt clamps are used OEM on heavy haul trucks like kenworths for their charge pipes.


BMW is not perfect, if they were why did you mod your car? There are so many parts that makes up a car if you think that something cannot go wrong or be overlooked you're naive. Example: the crank hub on the s55, the valvetronic motor, the charge pipes, the rod bearing and throttle body actuators on the e92 m3, the e46 m3 subframe and the list goes on. As you can see I am bringing facts to my arguments.

Of course they're trying to save money, why wouldn't they? A prime example of this is the B series engine, they are switching it to the same architecture so the 4 cylinder motors and 6 cylinder motors will share more parts relieving the manufacturing cost. Same thing with the move to mexico for assembly, they're trying to save money. just because they're trying to save money doesn't mean it is a bad thing, they just didn't expect the chargepipe to crack like it does. Sometimes mistakes occur during engineering look at apple and the iphone bend issues, or nasa and the curiosity rover wheel shredding up, sometimes you cannot see the issues that lay ahead. You just have to learn from the issue and improve on it with the next generation production like on the B58. Clearly plastic isn't bad if made right, but in the case of the n55 there is not solution but going to metal.

You literally sound like a conspiracy theorist right now.... Bmw doesn't hate their customers, they just messed up and based on a cost based analysis and amount of customers driving the car hard enough to fail they probably concluded it is cheaper to fix issues as they arise. isn't that ford did with the pinto or whatever that car is called. This is literally what all companies who are profit driven will do.


Overall you are lucky you haven't had an issue yet, but you will. Whether or not that issue will result in a large amount of debris in your engine remains unknown. Me personally I will always take the safer route and always mod my car in a way conducive to removing all potential issues.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by nioh_lbbm2

I need to chime in here with this response from you.

The air in a charge pipe is moving so fast it doesn't absorb any noticeable or possible sources of heat.

If you have a tune or 3rd party gauge you can check your IAT. There is no noticeable heat soak.

Your theory about an aluminum can is flawed because it contains an unchanging fluid in a static environment.

The fluid (air) in a charge pipe is constantly changing and is already cooled from the FMIC AND on top of that it pressurized. It would take a tremendous amount of energy to raise the temperature in the air flowing through the chargepipe which is under great velocity and pressure.

The only time heatsoak would be possible in any scenario for any car is at complete idle or super low speeds. In this case the FMIC and all associates air intake routes heat up REGARDLESS of stock or aftermarket parts because the amount of air flowing is so small

[XutvJet]

I installed a FTP charge pipe a week or so ago. Fits great. It also gets far hotter than the stock plastic CP. I've noted 10 to 15 degree higher IATs during stop and go traffic.
Once rolling or under heavy throttle, it's about the same as the stock CP. During no throttle or very light throttle, there is very little air moving through the intake tract thus it heats up. This can result in more lag and reduced power until the hot air clear out.

Aftermarket companies build CPs out of aluminum because it's incredibly expensive to extrude and form plastic. The up front costs are very high.

Plastic on intake parts is preferred because it's thermally more stable thus more consistent power and easier to design a part to fit into tight areas.

A guy just posted today on the F3X forum a picture of a OEM replacement CP. BMW has fixed the design. They've added over 1/2" more material forward of the common failure point and the TB. It's far more robust design. If I would had known a revised CP was available, I would had gone that direction.

Lastly, my stock CP was fine when I removed it after 4.5 years, 43k miles, hard driving, and extra power (~380whp).

[F87source]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

I installed a FTP charge pipe a week or so ago. Fits great. It also gets far hotter than the stock plastic CP. I've noted 10 to 15 degree higher IATs during stop and go traffic.
Once rolling or under heavy throttle, it's about the same as the stock CP. During no throttle or very light throttle, there is very little air moving through the intake tract thus it heats up. This can result in more lag and reduced power until the hot air clear out.

Aftermarket companies build CPs out of aluminum because it's incredibly expensive to extrude and form plastic. The up front costs are very high.

Plastic on intake parts is preferred because it's thermally more stable thus more consistent power and easier to design a part to fit into tight areas.

A guy just posted today on the F3X forum a picture of a OEM replacement CP. BMW has fixed the design. They've added over 1/2" more material forward of the common failure point and the TB. It's far more robust design. If I would had known a revised CP was available, I would had gone that direction.

Lastly, my stock CP was fine when I removed it after 4.5 years, 43k miles, hard driving, and extra power (~380whp).

Interesting... Well I didn't want to bring this up before in case my logs from my jb4 m235i were deleted but I never saw any IAT increase with the ER pipes installed during idling, and my pipes were the anodized black pipes which should have absorbed more radiant heat. I will look for my old logs and post them. I will also start taking logs now on my m2 and compare them when I install my cts charge pipes later on. But I believe this was the case because the intercooler was the bottle neck to this system, at idle my stock intercooler just heated up so much that the air going through it was hotter than the charge pipe.

Yes hot air will result in more "lag" but that is due to the motor pulling timing, and eitherway the bottle neck I have noticed is the heat soaked intercooler not the charge pipe getting hot...


Aftermarket companies build aluminium charge pipes because the plastic ones were shown to be weak and it would be risky to build another plastic pipe that could fail, so a huge investment would be destroyed. Also it is better to have 1/8 npt bungs on a metal charge pipe vs. a plastic one, so it is an all around better setup. Even if it was more expensive to make a mold once economy of scale hit then it would be extremely cheap to make with large profit margins. The same cannot be said with metal pipes as they have to be hand welded and that lowers profit margins and makes it a more expensive process over all.


Agreed on the fitment and ease of design, but honestly with such a short run it will make a small difference in regards to heat.



You are incorrect about the charge pipe being changed, the part number in use for the chargepipe on all F series N55's (except 5 series and up) is exactly the same since 2010 when the first F30 was launched https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/par...&q=13717604033

So that post was likely misleading as the part has yet to be superseded and has never been looked at. This could have been done to avoid a massive recall, I wouldn't be surprised if this was the case.


You are a lucky one since your charge pipe didn't blow, but owners of 2018 LCI m2's still experience charge pipe failures even stock, so it is still an issue.

[PackPride85]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

I installed a FTP charge pipe a week or so ago. Fits great. It also gets far hotter than the stock plastic CP. I've noted 10 to 15 degree higher IATs during stop and go traffic.
Once rolling or under heavy throttle, it's about the same as the stock CP. During no throttle or very light throttle, there is very little air moving through the intake tract thus it heats up. This can result in more lag and reduced power until the hot air clear out.

Aftermarket companies build CPs out of aluminum because it's incredibly expensive to extrude and form plastic. The up front costs are very high.

Plastic on intake parts is preferred because it's thermally more stable thus more consistent power and easier to design a part to fit into tight areas.

A guy just posted today on the F3X forum a picture of a OEM replacement CP. BMW has fixed the design. They've added over 1/2" more material forward of the common failure point and the TB. It's far more robust design. If I would had known a revised CP was available, I would had gone that direction.

Lastly, my stock CP was fine when I removed it after 4.5 years, 43k miles, hard driving, and extra power (~380whp).

Zero change in IAT's after putting in my ER charge pipe. Not sure why you are seeing 10-15 degrees. I've also not seen this car consistently pull timing part throttle even as the temps approach 90 here.

[nioh_lbbm2]

Originally Posted by PackPride85

Zero change in IAT's after putting in my ER charge pipe. Not sure why you are seeing 10-15 degrees. I've also not seen this car consistently pull timing part throttle even as the temps approach 90 here.

He said during stop and go traffic. Anything is possible during that depending on ambient temps in the locale.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by F87source

I


You are incorrect about the charge pipe being changed, the part number in use for the chargepipe on all F series N55's (except 5 series and up) is exactly the same since 2010 when the first F30 was launched https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/par...&q=13717604033

So that post was likely misleading as the part has yet to be superseded and has never been looked at. This could have been done to avoid a massive recall, I wouldn't be surprised if this was the case.

Here's a pic of the new charge pipe collar design. While parts vendors aren't showing a new part # yet (I've confirmed as well), the CP design has most definitely been changed and improved. Almost all CP failures on N55s are at the collar.

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...1407066&page=5

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by PackPride85

Zero change in IAT's after putting in my ER charge pipe. Not sure why you are seeing 10-15 degrees. I've also not seen this car consistently pull timing part throttle even as the temps approach 90 here.

Stop and go driving. There's hardly any air flow through the intake, IC, or charge pipe. The air is essentially stagnate in the pipes. The metal CP bakes in an area surrounded by dense metal, one piece of which is a metal engine block on a running motor.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Here's a pic of the new charge pipe collar design. While parts vendors aren't showing a new part # yet (I've confirmed as well), the CP design has most definitely been changed and improved. Almost all CP failures on N55s are at the collar.

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...1407066&page=5

Yes you are absolutely right, almost all if not an overwhelming majority of failures occur at the flange.

Interesting they added a bit of a ledge. It still can fail though which is disappointing, and probably why BMW made the B58 flange completely different and bolted on. So if you're tuned I personally wouldn't risk be stranded, or have the motor suck in any fragments and unfiltered air.

If you're stock and under warranty just get as many free charge pipes as you want tbh, if you're modding it's highly advised to upgrade that part.


Plastic may be thermally stable but it gets brittle af over time.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Stop and go driving. There's hardly any air flow through the intake, IC, or charge pipe. The air is essentially stagnate in the pipes. The metal CP bakes in an area surrounded by dense metal, one piece of which is a metal engine block on a running motor.

True, but for me my intercooler probably was best soaked so bad it didn't matter in either case, which is what is happening in most cases.

Also air is a really good insulator which is why you can stick your arm in a hot oven without being burned, so despite the metal charge pipe being above a hot engine there is still a pretty big air gap to prevent there being too much heat transfer.

[nioh_lbbm2]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Here's a pic of the new charge pipe collar design. While parts vendors aren't showing a new part # yet (I've confirmed as well), the CP design has most definitely been changed and improved. Almost all CP failures on N55s are at the collar.

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...1407066&page=5

this is very interesting indeed. But without a new part number I would assume it would be difficult to confirm which chargepipe you get when it is ordered.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by nioh_lbbm2

this is very interesting indeed. But without a new part number I would assume it would be difficult to confirm which chargepipe you get when it is ordered.

That's a good point.

Also was the charge pipe in the image xdrive or rwd? Not sure if there is a difference between the two?

[asbrr]

Just a thought - it's probably been mentioned in all the back and forth - can't one just heat wrap the aluminum charge pipe properly (reflective and/or other heat wrap tape) and that gives you the best of both worlds?

[F87source]

Originally Posted by asbrr

Just a thought - it's probably been mentioned in all the back and forth - can't one just heat wrap the aluminum charge pipe properly (reflective and/or other heat wrap tape) and that gives you the best of both worlds?

Yup, that's what I suggested. You can even use iconel to make a heat shield as well if you are extra paranoid. I believe heat shield products makes a wrap for intake tubes that will fit around the chargepipe that not only insulates it but offers thermal rejection properties which will make it out perform plastic in every situation.