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      05-19-2018, 08:54 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cntzl View Post
Seriously? Wait till CF body panels are released. Many people will be spending much more than just a couple grand to save less than 100lbs. This is going to be a dual purpose car for me, both dd and track (10+ track days in a year). Is it too much to ask for a car that our European friends are getting? I don't want to deal with removing my passenger seat or ripping off other components of the car to achieve a decent weight. I'm all for a small, more compact car but it's just absurd to ignore the 150lbs weight increase over the US spec M2 LCI or 182lbs weight increase over the EU spec M2C.
And by the way, ripping out a seat is merely a few bolts and a wiring harness. Any technical enthusiast won’t feel the burden.
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      05-19-2018, 09:10 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by yaymitch View Post
If you want a lighter weight car in the same category, go buy the Audi RS3.
Let me correct that for you:
If you want a lighter weight car in the same category, go buy the current M2 with 6MT.

If weight matters a lot for you. Let's face it: the current/oldskool M2 isn't 'lightweight'. The 6MT M2 has the same 1495 kg weight of the E46 M3 and E82 1M. True that safety and environmental legislation has evolved in the meantime (requiring to implement changes). But so did/does lightweight materials technology.

The current M2 is approx. 10% less muscular (40hp & 50Nm delta) and doesn't feature the many 2018 optimizations & gizmos. That's a fact. But it got better fuel consumption (less thirsty engine and less weight to move around), less CO2 emissions (less taxes in many countries), better weight distribution and doesn't require you to spend extra money on M Performance Parts on top of the increased price to approach the already-rather-heavy 1495 kg weight figure.

It's perfectly OK to ask BMW M boss Frank van Meel questions about for example the redesigned side mirrors and red start/stop button. But please also ask him some hard questions about the further increase of the already high body mass index of the M2, about the apparent approach of 'fighting' increased weight by adding power but with equally hosting at the same time some kind of pay-per-reduced-kilo M Performance Parts slimming program (alike providing a bigger size of pants to 'remedy' increased body weight + offering at a price an optional gym subscription program). And give him the hat tip to make the possible 2019/2020 M2 variant '6MT only' (alike the 1M and the Porsche 911R): that measure effortlessly saves that car already 25 kg at once (just ensure that the manual gearbox can handle all the power 'thrown' at it). Thank me later.
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      05-19-2018, 09:21 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Cavpilot2k View Post
No MT in the Audi.
Sorry, that's a must-have for a fun car for me.

Cars are becoming less and less connected to the driver, so I like to maintain the deeper connectedness that MT gives you.

Plus, I like the control over when it shifts.
And before anybody says "but you can shift manually with a DCT..." just stop. DCT is still an automatic transmission. Even in manual mode, it will still shift automatically if you hit its mode-based shift points on the top or bottom end.
DCT May be faster, and it's great tech, but at the end of the day, it's just a fancy AT with some degree of manual controllability (that it will override if it wants to).

I'm not saying everybody should get MT, it's not for everyone, but for me it's the only way to fly (and yes, I DD A 6MT every day in my commute in stop-and-go Boston area traffic, and don't consider it the least bit burdensome - it's just part of the joy of driving).
Hate to do this (this is not a MT vs DCT debate).

DCT is not an automatic, but an automated manual. It has no torque converter, and two wet clutches.
In manual mode, it will not shift into the next gear like an Auto, but hit/bounce off the red-line just like a MT.

I agree with your other points.

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      05-19-2018, 09:34 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by boostspoon View Post
You’re a good guy and all, but what you and all other folks are saying is plain stupid.

120 pounds / 3600 pounds = 3.33%. You won’t feel shit.

If anyone needs to argue, you’re just some pretentious person that knows little about performance. If you care enough, target 10% weight reduction and skip out on all the luxurious amentities
It’s 150 pound differerence... that’s bull crap engineering, specially for a “performance car”. Porsche takes great lengths in removing that weight from a 911 turning it into their GT3. They even remove the door handles and put cloth pullers in their place. Ferrari takes great lengths to take the F12 to TdF. BMW could care less. What kind of mentality is that? Ford or GM or Dodge
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      05-19-2018, 09:41 PM   #71
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The M2C is hardly a GT3-type vehicle...
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      05-19-2018, 09:49 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Spa2k View Post
The M2C is hardly a GT3-type vehicle...
Neither was the S2000... but I know you know what I mean. Why are they calling it “Competition” then if they don’t intend it to perform on the track, where weight is critical? Probably an eating competition is what they’re referring to.
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      05-19-2018, 09:54 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Z435is View Post
It’s 150 pound differerence... that’s bull crap engineering, specially for a “performance car”. Porsche takes great lengths in removing that weight from a 911 turning it into their GT3. They even remove the door handles and put cloth pullers in their place. Ferrari takes great lengths to take the F12 to TdF. BMW could care less. What kind of mentality is that? Ford or GM or Dodge
Stupid comparison. The GT3 costs around 50k more than a base 911. I believe the 911 Turbo also weighs more than a C4S... which both have AWD and turbo engines. Camaro ZL1 weighs more than an SS 1LE.

It is 150 lbs on a street car, seriously, people need to get a grip.
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      05-19-2018, 09:54 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Z435is View Post
Neither was the S2000... but I know you know what I mean. Why are they calling it “Competition” then if they don’t intend it to perform on the track, where weight is critical? Probably an eating competition is what they’re referring to.
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      05-19-2018, 09:57 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Z435is View Post
Neither was the S2000... but I know you know what I mean. Why are they calling it “Competition” then if they don’t intend it to perform on the track, where weight is critical? Probably an eating competition is what they’re referring to.
Have you examined what is in the competition packages for every M car since the E46 M3? For BMW marketing, "Competition" has always meant very little.

You will find that the M2C performs better on track I am sure. It is faster, has better cooling, and brakes that will hold up better. So yes, it is better on track.
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      05-19-2018, 10:00 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z435is View Post
Neither was the S2000... but I know you know what I mean. Why are they calling it “Competition” then if they don’t intend it to perform on the track, where weight is critical? Probably an eating competition is what they’re referring to.
Why is the F90 M5 Competion called a Competiton? No more comp packs. Get use to it.
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      05-19-2018, 10:01 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
Stupid comparison. The GT3 costs around 50k more than a base 911. I believe the 911 Turbo also weighs more than a C4S... which both have AWD and turbo engines. Camaro ZL1 weighs more than an SS 1LE.

It is 150 lbs on a street car, seriously, people need to get a grip.
SO they go through great lengths to add another turbo altogether, change all the suspension settings etc for a 400hp “street car”? And what’s about the Boxster Spyder from GTS then? Better comparison for you. My point exactly with your Camaro - BMW took the GM route by adding more power, not dynamics as #1 priority. You guys accept that, you get “a grip”.
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      05-19-2018, 10:05 PM   #78
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      05-19-2018, 10:05 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z435is View Post
SO they go through great lengths to add another turbo altogether, change all the suspension settings etc for a 400hp “street car”? And what’s about the Boxster Spyder from GTS then? Better comparison for you. My point exactly with your Camaro - BMW took the GM route by adding more power, not dynamics as #1 priority. You guys accept that, you get “a grip”.
They could make it lighter if it cost 20k more like your Boxster example. You do not seem to get it.

FWIW a 981 Cayman GT4 weighs more than a base Cayman. Maybe Porsche should stop taking the GM route also.

Maybe you should trade your Z4 35is for a 28 for improved dynamics also?

News flash: The M2 and M2C are primarily street cars. They were and are not the fastest or most dynamically capable cars on track for their price.
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      05-19-2018, 10:09 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Tag View Post
M2 Total weight MT: 3,450-lbs……(Front 51.9% / Rear 48.1%)
M2 Total weight DCT: 3,505-lbs…..(Front 51.4% / Rear 48.6%)

M2 Weight Distribution

…………..FRONT…………REAR
MT……..1,794-lbs……..1,656-lbs
DCT……1,802-lbs……..1,703-lbs

-----------------------------------------------

M2c Total weight MT: 3,600-lbs……(Front 51.9% / Rear 48.1%)
M2c Total weight DCT: 3,655-lbs…..(Front 52.4% / Rear 47.6%)

M2c Weight Distribution

…………..FRONT…………REAR
MT……..1,868-lbs……..1,732-lbs
DCT……1,915-lbs……..1,740-lbs

So they use to say all the weight was going to be up front. Guess that one is dead.
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      05-19-2018, 10:10 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Z435is View Post
SO they go through great lengths to add another turbo altogether, change all the suspension settings etc for a 400hp “street car”? And what’s about the Boxster Spyder from GTS then? Better comparison for you. My point exactly with your Camaro - BMW took the GM route by adding more power, not dynamics as #1 priority. You guys accept that, you get “a grip”.
Comparing the M2C to a Boxster S in concept is as far as I’ll go, and even that’s a stretch.
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      05-19-2018, 10:13 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisK View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavpilot2k View Post
No MT in the Audi.
Sorry, that's a must-have for a fun car for me.

Cars are becoming less and less connected to the driver, so I like to maintain the deeper connectedness that MT gives you.

Plus, I like the control over when it shifts.
And before anybody says "but you can shift manually with a DCT..." just stop. DCT is still an automatic transmission. Even in manual mode, it will still shift automatically if you hit its mode-based shift points on the top or bottom end.
DCT May be faster, and it's great tech, but at the end of the day, it's just a fancy AT with some degree of manual controllability (that it will override if it wants to).

I'm not saying everybody should get MT, it's not for everyone, but for me it's the only way to fly (and yes, I DD A 6MT every day in my commute in stop-and-go Boston area traffic, and don't consider it the least bit burdensome - it's just part of the joy of driving).
Hate to do this (this is not a MT vs DCT debate).

DCT is not an automatic, but an automated manual. It has no torque converter, and two wet clutches.
In manual mode, it will not shift into the next gear like an Auto, but hit/bounce off the red-line just like a MT.

I agree with your other points.

It will shift for you if you hit the bottom end (it won't allow you to stall out).
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      05-19-2018, 10:13 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by BAN_M2 View Post
Lol each thread and discussion turns into a joke debacle
It is f*cking hilarious. There are a few current M2 owners that are locks to show up and talk sh*t in each new thread. The same ones that get sensitive when you refer to N55 M2 as Civic M2.

The Competition section is the happening place, each new thread is bound to get 30+ pages. This car is hot.
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      05-19-2018, 10:14 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by M3_WC View Post
So they use to say all the weight was going to be up front. Guess that one is dead.
That giant muffler balanced it out .

People get so worked up over marketing driven specs that don't even directly correlate with real world performance.
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      05-19-2018, 10:15 PM   #85
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Comparing the M2C to a Boxster S in concept is as far as I’ll go, and even that’s a stretch.
HUGE stretch, as big as the M2C's fat ass does to its skinny jeans.

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      05-19-2018, 10:16 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boostspoon View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by cntzl View Post
Seriously? Wait till CF body panels are released. Many people will be spending much more than just a couple grand to save less than 100lbs. This is going to be a dual purpose car for me, both dd and track (10+ track days in a year). Is it too much to ask for a car that our European friends are getting? I don't want to deal with removing my passenger seat or ripping off other components of the car to achieve a decent weight. I'm all for a small, more compact car but it's just absurd to ignore the 150lbs weight increase over the US spec M2 LCI or 182lbs weight increase over the EU spec M2C.
And by the way, ripping out a seat is merely a few bolts and a wiring harness. Any technical enthusiast won’t feel the burden.
Quote:
Originally Posted by boostspoon View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by cntzl View Post
Seriously? Wait till CF body panels are released. Many people will be spending much more than just a couple grand to save less than 100lbs. This is going to be a dual purpose car for me, both dd and track (10+ track days in a year). Is it too much to ask for a car that our European friends are getting? I don't want to deal with removing my passenger seat or ripping off other components of the car to achieve a decent weight. I'm all for a small, more compact car but it's just absurd to ignore the 150lbs weight increase over the US spec M2 LCI or 182lbs weight increase over the EU spec M2C.
You're a good guy and all, but what you and all other folks are saying is plain stupid.

120 pounds / 3600 pounds = 3.33%. You won't feel shit.

If anyone needs to argue, you're just some pretentious person that knows little about performance. If you care enough, target 10% weight reduction and skip out on all the luxurious amentities
Quote:
Originally Posted by boostspoon View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by cntzl View Post
Seriously? Wait till CF body panels are released. Many people will be spending much more than just a couple grand to save less than 100lbs. This is going to be a dual purpose car for me, both dd and track (10+ track days in a year). Is it too much to ask for a car that our European friends are getting? I don't want to deal with removing my passenger seat or ripping off other components of the car to achieve a decent weight. I'm all for a small, more compact car but it's just absurd to ignore the 150lbs weight increase over the US spec M2 LCI or 182lbs weight increase over the EU spec M2C.
And by the way, ripping out a seat is merely a few bolts and a wiring harness. Any technical enthusiast won't feel the burden.
Firstly, it's not about how difficult it's to remove a seat or other parts of the car. I just want to keep the two front seats along with the rest of the parts intact , period. This isn't goint to be a stripped out, dedicated track car for me. If I didn't need the extra space or the seats, I would have gotten a Corvette at a much better price/performance ratio.

I don't agree at all with what you are saying. The more we say "you can't feel the extra 150lbs" the more weight they will continue to add along with more power. Is this extra 150lbs all because of the S55? Why cannot they offer us a base M2C with none of fancy features/accessories and manual seats? (Just keep the price same and make everything a no cost option. Is this so difficult?) Why are we getting a US spec car which is 182lbs heavier than the EU spec? Anyways... Sorry but I cannot just say "oh BMW finally gave me S55 in a smaller car so I don't care if it weighs 150lbs more because I probably won't feel it".
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      05-19-2018, 10:16 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z435is View Post
It’s 150 pound differerence... that’s bull crap engineering, specially for a “performance car”. Porsche takes great lengths in removing that weight from a 911 turning it into their GT3. They even remove the door handles and put cloth pullers in their place. Ferrari takes great lengths to take the F12 to TdF. BMW could care less. What kind of mentality is that? Ford or GM or Dodge
Totally agree on your thought that a “competition” badge on an existing model should warrant for better everything, including weight.

What I disagree with is the theory that a majority of the buyers will spend thousands, literally thousands to specifically purchase all the M Perf fenders, trunk, roof, ect just specifically to bring the vehicle weight down 150 pounds and not for aesthetic reasons.

There are buyers who drive the car daily, weekly, or occasional track. They won’t care about the extra 120 pounds or 3% weight on a 3600 pound vehicle.

Then there are buyers who track occasionally or competitively who must have something lighter. They have a fair point and going the extent to replace genders, removing seats, sound deading, ect is what it takes to get it right.

My point is, don’t come to the table saying people are going to spend thousands to just reduce weight by 150 pounds.

Last edited by boostspoon; 05-19-2018 at 10:48 PM..
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      05-19-2018, 10:18 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Cavpilot2k View Post
It will shift for you if you hit the bottom end (it won't allow you to stall out).
Yeah, it's even simpler than that I think. If the car can shift by itself it's an automatic transmission - end of story.

We all know it's not a conventional automatic, but it's kinda hard to argue that the fact that it uses wet clutch packs instead of a torque converter as a coupling mechanism makes it non-automatic. That's just an implementation detail.
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