[grant]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Early 911's are great examples of unassisted steering, but I don't think a 993 is far off in terms of feel.

I've owned a 993 and it is not in the same universe as my 73 with respect to steering feel. I've also driven a number of E36 M3's and had a 79 635CSi Euro for many years, both good for hydraulic but not close to manual.

I do agree with your premise about there being good and bad examples of each approach (I have driven manual steering cars that were lousy, but that's rare).

And I agree that a 981 is a reasonable example of electric, but was still a big letdown from the 987 (as you said).

[ozinaldo]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Of course it does, it's a lighter car with less weight on the front tires. My CRX had 65% of the weight on the front tires, but was still light enough that it felt fine. Exiges with sticky track tires weren't that fun at low speeds, even though they're super light. I'd imagine the Alfa 4C, especially in US trim will be a bit of a handful, especially with Pirelli Cup tires.

There are pinnacles of each type of steering, my E36/8 M Coupe was about as good as I've felt hydraulic steering, my dad's FD RX7 is also great. Early 911's are great examples of unassisted steering, but I don't think a 993 is far off in terms of feel. The point is that hydraulic has good and bad examples, as does manual. Right now it sure seems like most electric setups are poor (and ZF seems to have the worst feel), but it will get better. The fact that Honda was doing it well fifteen plus years ago is a good sign. The BRZ I drove felt reasonable and the 981 isn't terrible, unless you've just stepped out of a 987.

Funny that you've said that (part that I've quoted in bold), in fact EPS is not that new at all, has been around mostly on economic or comfort oriented cars for some time including Honda models. I owned two Honda Fits between 2004 and 2009 while I was residing in Brazil and just a few months ago I enjoyed a test drive with the new Boxster S. Steering was definitely accurate, vibration free and light but I would not change it with the feel of the steering in my 1M, it was one of the points of the new Boxster which made the experience with Boxster so much more clinical vs. visceral in the 1M. And I even said to Porsche SA who was sitting next seat during all the test drive that "I honestly did not find this steering any better or worse than what I had years ago in my Fit". I was not trying to say a bad thing because at the time I've liked the comfort and precision of the EPS of the Fit; but that was a Fit and what I was testing was the new Boxster S!

All in all I have to agree that in time they will be much better and maybe better than any hydraulic system; just can't say that it looks sometime close enough to make me believe that steering of the next M2 will be better than what I already have. If the rest of the car will be too good you may always forgive/ignore this or that though.

[grant]

Originally Posted by ozinaldo

Funny that you've said that, in fact EPS is not that new at all, has been around mostly on economic or comfort oriented cars for some time including Honda models.

Yes, it's because of the fact that it's not new and yet even with great intent and resources available in projects like the new Cayman/Boxster and GT3, they still haven't managed to even equal hydraulic steering that it fills me with pessimism.

It seems to me that if electric steering had so much potential then the results would start to reveal that by now. I guess BMW M is one of the last performance marques to show us that potential. I wish I was a little more hopeful...

[ozinaldo]

Originally Posted by grant

Yes, it's because of the fact that it's not new and yet even with great intent and resources available in projects like the new Cayman/Boxster and GT3, they still haven't managed to even equal hydraulic steering that it fills me with pessimism.

It seems to me that if electric steering had so much potential then the results would start to reveal that by now. I guess BMW M is one of the last performance marques to show us that potential. I wish I was a little more hopeful...

Just got curious and checked wikipedia; says that first system on a road car was a Suzuki Cervo in 1988, same year when I was a freshman at college so the invention is as "recent" as Sweet Child of Mine of Guns n Roses or the movie Fatal Attraction with Glenn Close and Michael Douglas

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_steering

[grant]

BTW, if after time it becomes clear that hydraulic is simply superior to EPS (even with software tweeks), there is a solution.

All factory Porsche race cars and the McLaren 12C (maybe the P1 also) use hydraulic steering where the pump is driven by an electric motor, instead of by a belt from the crankshaft.

This gives all the advantages of hydraulic steering feel and all of the economy of EPS. There is a little extra weight and complexity, but well worth it until (if?) EPS improves to equal or better the performance of hydraulic.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by grant

It depends on the electric motor. My other hobby is electric model airplanes. Some of the bigger brushless electric motors with substantial torque have quite a bit of parasitic drag. I imagine the motors with enough torque to instantaneously steer a 3,000 pound car would need to be fairly stout and have some friction and inertia to overcome.

It's true that it depends on the type of motor, but that caveat has to be evaluated in context. The context is that an unpowered hydraulic system has tremendous drag. This means that you could (in theory) reach a lower limit of assist with EPS than you could with hydraulic, and still have a usable steering rack.

I still believe that the problems with the EPS systems we've seen to date are all engineering related, not systemic.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by grant

BTW, if after time it becomes clear that hydraulic is simply superior to EPS (even with software tweeks), there is a solution.

All factory Porsche race cars and the McLaren 12C (maybe the P1 also) use hydraulic steering where the pump is driven by an electric motor, instead of by a belt from the crankshaft.

This gives all the advantages of hydraulic steering feel and all of the economy of EPS. There is a little extra weight and complexity, but well worth it until (if?) EPS improves to equal or better the performance of hydraulic.

Hmm, that does sound like the best solution given the current options. I still think ZF (BMW and Porsche's supplier) is most to blame, the Japanese don't seem to have as many issues with EPS. Of course expectations aren't as high for them either.

[WWM]

Originally Posted by Bam226

Any ideas if this will have an automatic? I know the 1 series M didn't which is why I didn't get it. And many in here will be like "why buy an M car with auto"? Haha I like autos that's why. They're faster easier to drive in traffic and overall more comfortable. This will be my DD and I am considering waiting for the M2 or getting the M235i. What to do...

It will probably come with BMW's excellent 7 speed DCT as an option. I wish they had used this transmission in the M235i. While it's probably about the same for upshifts, the DCT handles manual downshifts much better than the ZF 8 speed.

[grant]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Hmm, that does sound like the best solution given the current options.

I agree. The other advancement I can envision for EPS is that the electric motor totally disengages above a certain speed beyond which assist is not required, so that it would behave exactly like a manual rack.

This would require the motor's pinion gear to mesh and disengage (like a starter motor does from the flywheel's starter ring's teeth when starting the car) and could potentially be a point of wear or failure. But, I think the benefits would be considerable.

[GeeRam]

Originally Posted by WWM

It will probably come with BMW's excellent 7 speed DCT as an option. I wish they had used this transmission in the M235i. While it's probably about the same for upshifts, the DCT handles manual downshifts much better than the ZF 8 speed.

This is why I won't be chopping in my 135i for a M235, as the DCT is just better than the ZF8 auto option in the M235.

The ZF8 is brilliant as far as slush boxes go, but it's still not DCT.

[Bam226]

Any prices been thrown around for this car yet? Specked m235i is close to 50 so I was thinking 60.

[grant]

Originally Posted by GeeRam

The ZF8 is brilliant as far as slush boxes go, but it's still not DCT.

But Manual is better than either

But since you live in London, I'll give you a pass. I used to live in Los Angeles and a Manual is a little trying there as well...

[grant]

Originally Posted by Bam226

Any prices been thrown around for this car yet? Specked m235i is close to 50 so I was thinking 60.

It has to be cheaper than M3/M4, so I'm thinking around $56,500 in today's money.

[GeeRam]

Originally Posted by WWM

It will probably come with BMW's excellent 7 speed DCT as an option. I wish they had used this transmission in the M235i. While it's probably about the same for upshifts, the DCT handles manual downshifts much better than the ZF 8 speed.

Originally Posted by grant

But Manual is better than either

But since you live in London, I'll give you a pass. I used to live in Los Angeles and a Manual is a little trying there as well...

Actually, I don't think modern 6 spd manual's are better, they just don't feel 'engineered' like older tech 4 & 5 speed manuals, and a manual today doesn't seem to suit the moden higher tech engines as well.

I love manuals, but I can't remember a decent manual box in a modern car that I've driven..... I'm sure there must be some?


I've spent quite a bit of time driving in and around LA, and I think London is now much worse than LA, and I'd never have a manual again as a DD.

[grant]

Originally Posted by GeeRam

Actually, I don't think modern 6 spd manual's are better, they just don't feel 'engineered' like older tech 4 & 5 speed manuals, and a manual today doesn't seem to suit the moden higher tech engines as well.

I love manuals, but I can't remember a decent manual box in a modern car that I've driven..... I'm sure there must be some?

Interesting perspective. I have a huge fondness for older cars (my favorite being my 41-year old Porsche), but while many things have gotten worse, I have to say that modern manual gearboxes seem pretty good to me. I have to double-clutch heel-toe downshift in my 911 at the track (which I have learned to do well and now love it), but I do admire the smoothness and better synchronizing in a modern box.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by grant

I agree. The other advancement I can envision for EPS is that the electric motor totally disengages above a certain speed beyond which assist is not required, so that it would behave exactly like a manual rack.

This would require the motor's pinion gear to mesh and disengage (like a starter motor does from the flywheel's starter ring's teeth when starting the car) and could potentially be a point of wear or failure. But, I think the benefits would be considerable.

If it did disengage, it wouldn't use an engagement system like a starter. The engagement of Bendix drive isn't nearly smooth enough for use in a steering system. They'd have to use a clutch system.

I just don't see that happening though. Not only is a clutch system going to be more prone to failure, but a fully manual rack in a modern car is just not sensible. It's fine in a 2,500 lb rear-engine 70's Porsche or a 2,000 lb Alfa 4C, but in a 3,000+ lb BMW, they'd have to use a horrible ratio. No one wants to go back to 6 turns lock-to-lock

You just don't want so much assist that you can't feel anything, and you want less assist when the steering is naturally unloaded.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by Bam226

Any ideas if this will have an automatic? I know the 1 series M didn't which is why I didn't get it. And many in here will be like "why buy an M car with auto"? Haha I like autos that's why. They're faster easier to drive in traffic and overall more comfortable. This will be my DD and I am considering waiting for the M2 or getting the M235i. What to do...

The M2 isn't going to arrive until at least 2016 according to the latest rumors. If you get an M235i order in soon, you'll be coming off lease about 1 year after the M2 release, which will give it time for demand to settle down and you can get a car at a reasonable price.

[Seagull]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

The M2 isn't going to arrive until at least 2016 according to the latest rumors. If you get an M235i order in soon, you'll be coming off lease about 1 year after the M2 release, which will give it time for demand to settle down and you can get a car at a reasonable price.

Yeah I also heard from some BMW peeps it will be in the show rooms 2016!

[Bam226]

Originally Posted by Jason

Some BMW M2 speculative renderings:

What size wheels / drop would this be. Even if the m235i received this treatment it would be perfect.

[grant]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

If it did disengage, it wouldn't use an engagement system like a starter. The engagement of Bendix drive isn't nearly smooth enough for use in a steering system. They'd have to use a clutch system.

I just don't see that happening though. Not only is a clutch system going to be more prone to failure, but a fully manual rack in a modern car is just not sensible. It's fine in a 2,500 lb rear-engine 70's Porsche or a 2,000 lb Alfa 4C, but in a 3,000+ lb BMW, they'd have to use a horrible ratio. No one wants to go back to 6 turns lock-to-lock

You just don't want so much assist that you can't feel anything, and you want less assist when the steering is naturally unloaded.

Good points

[Bam226]

Those with M car experience, is it a good DD or something for track mostly? Just thinking maybe the 235i may be better for DD use. Let me know some thoughts...

[Transfer]

Originally Posted by Bam226

Those with M car experience, is it a good DD or something for track mostly? Just thinking maybe the 235i may be better for DD use. Let me know some thoughts...

Depends on your tolerances. They are aggressive cars made for the ability to DD and are about as good as it gets for track worthy while able to daily.