[Juliana19]

Originally Posted by Bee Pee

Any OEM c/over setup, like BMW's F87 MPerf Suspension (MPS), is always going to be a compromise TBH.

You tried MPS and it wasn't for you, desspite tweaking settings. Did you have MPS set up properly ?

FWIW I do 6-8 TD's per year and find the MPS works very well on various tracks (I've tried the car standard, MPerf BMW settings and then had MPS fettled by Centre Gravity) and latterly my trusty OG M2 is way easy to pedal and can stay with and go around some far more exotic machinery ;-)

Fair play to you - you've now chosen something more suiting yr needs from a new entrant (Omnium Racing) at an entirely different pricing point perhaps 75-100% more $$ ?). Reads to me like it's hitting the mark more than the MPS did and I guess this proves the "pay to play" cliche when it comes to aftermarket add-ons.

Yep exactly I tried them and found them OK but slightly lacking on track, as you rightly say it’s a compromise they are based on a V3 which is more of a fast road Coilovers. The car was fully corner weighted and fettled.

Tbh the Ohlins weren’t as much as you’d think, not sure what the retail will be as mine were the development set.

[M Fifty]

Originally Posted by Juliana19

I agree re MPS and if you read my original post I quite clearly state that I understand the MPS is an good option for many and improvement (albeit that in itself is an unquantified but very popular opinion on here which remains unchallenged) however... based on my experience running them back to back the Ohlins are leagues ahead in terms of a set of subjective statements and an objective perspective using consistent faster lap times as a proxy

Okay, so noting that you didn't seem interested in the suspension dyno thread (which provides non-subjective, quantified data) for reasons, how about this one that discusses the rates of different stock and aftermarket springs (including Ohlins)?

https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1775848

[Juliana19]

Originally Posted by M Fifty

Okay, so noting that you didn't seem interested in the suspension dyno thread (which provides non-subjective, quantified data) for reasons, how about this one that discusses the rates of different stock and aftermarket springs (including Ohlins)?

https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1775848

Yes there is some data on spring rates in this this thread…However as rightly mentioned spring rates in itself is subjective as it’s all dependent on the application and user as to what spring rate is “best”.

The ethos behind the kit that Omnium Racing have developed is exactly as per the above…develop the Coilover dependent on the application the customer requires (in my case mostly track) and not only spring rates but pair with the appropriate valving based on the spring rate, desired ride height etc.

I’m still struggling to grasp your overall point tbh, would you be happy if you had the spring rates I’m using? How would that help you given spring rates is only very a small part of the overall package and is customisable depending on objective.

Again it’s ironic given you’ve bought some coilovers where the manufacturer wont directly tell you the spring rate you have, yet you bought them anyway…

[M Fifty]

Good Spiel Love the bad-mouthing.

My point was to understand in what way the MPS didn't meet your requirements based on the settings you used vs those recommended. As I mentioned earlier, I find the MPS are better than stock, but not perfect. Hence, in what way is your new set up better, in terms of quantitive improvement and/or subjective feel? Yes, they look fab, but that's not what I asked. Please go back and try to read my original post as something other than a personal attack.

Or don't - if the intent was purely to promote product.

HTH

[Juliana19]

Originally Posted by M Fifty

Good Spiel Love the bad-mouthing.

My point was to understand in what way the MPS didn't meet your requirements based on the settings you used vs those recommended. As I mentioned earlier, I find the MPS are better than stock, but not perfect. Hence, in what way is your new set up better, in terms of quantitive improvement and/or subjective feel? Yes, they look fab, but that's not what I asked. Please go back and try to read my original post as something other than a personal attack.

Or don't - if the intent was purely to promote product.

HTH

I’m not sure how me asking you what your actual point is (of which I’m still unclear) and pointing out you have bought a set of Coilovers based on absolutely no manufacturer data constitutes a personal attack

If you read my original post I thought I’d been pretty clear in explaining both subjectively ( improved feedback/feel, body control, damping across bumpy surfaces, compliance over harsh bumps) and objectively (lap times). Am happy to elaborate further?

They say a picture says a thousand words so here are a few thousand words about what I thought could be improved when pushing on track with MPS

[M Fifty]

Okay, so: for your use case, the front springs are too soft, and upping the compression to try and support the front of the car under braking and on turn in resulted in it bouncing on the tires (I'm guessing - based on your earlier description) over bumps/rumble strips. The rear is also looking comically underdamped on rebound.

Noting that my original question was what settings did you use compared to the recommended track settings, it appears that stiffer front springs would have been the first thing to try (along with less compression damping, and more rear rebound).

So, in the pictures, what settings were you using? That's my "point" as you put it.

Glad the Ohlins and springs have sorted the shortcomings though.

For reference, I bought MPS as it allowed me to retain the BMW Warranty, and I made the assumption that they would at least be on a par with KW V3 (for which data on spring rates and damping performance exists). For the type of road driving I do they are better than stock. The bit about the personal attack was that you appeared to think what I asked was just that.

HTH.

[kart driver]

What is the difference between these 3 options?

1) Ohlins R&T
2) KW V3 or M Perfomance
3) KW Clubsport


Do I understand it correctly, that KW Clubsport are better than Ohlins R&T for track use?

Is KW Clubsport good for road use? Or are they significantly less comfortable in comparison to KW V3 / MPerfomance? Or it is not the case?


I am pretty happy with my MPerf on my M2C, but I am considering to buy coilovers as well for my M2CS and just hesitating which way to go.

[kart driver]

It is interesting that the KW V3 is the most expensive option among Billstein, Nitron and Ohlins.


https://www.litchfieldmotors.com/bmw...ling-upgrades/


I presume more expensive means better?

[M Fifty]

Originally Posted by kart driver

It is interesting that the KW V3 is the most expensive option among Billstein, Nitron and Ohlins.


https://www.litchfieldmotors.com/bmw...ling-upgrades/


I presume more expensive means better?

Those are the Clubsports - a step up from the V3.

[Juliana19]

Originally Posted by M Fifty

Okay, so: for your use case, the front springs are too soft, and upping the compression to try and support the front of the car under braking and on turn in resulted in it bouncing on the tires (I'm guessing - based on your earlier description) over bumps/rumble strips. The rear is also looking comically underdamped on rebound.

Noting that my original question was what settings did you use compared to the recommended track settings, it appears that stiffer front springs would have been the first thing to try (along with less compression damping, and more rear rebound).

So, in the pictures, what settings were you using? That's my "point" as you put it.

Glad the Ohlins and springs have sorted the shortcomings though.

For reference, I bought MPS as it allowed me to retain the BMW Warranty, and I made the assumption that they would at least be on a par with KW V3 (for which data on spring rates and damping performance exists). For the type of road driving I do they are better than stock. The bit about the personal attack was that you appeared to think what I asked was just that.

HTH.

In terms of settings on track I started with the recommended track settings and then add a few clicks of compression and rebound depending on track (I’ve got a note of settings somewhere), at one point I had them really wound up but I was then really struggling with bumpy undulating tracks like Oulton park or Castle Coombe as the car wouldn’t settle. When Omnium set the car on MPS they suggested I take some clicks off as you can’t compensate for a spring rate that’s too soft by adding compression without compromise.

Having done quite a bit of research into spring rates and alternative set ups before settling on custom Ohlins one of my takeaways was not too focus just on spring rates as it’s the combination with damping that really makes the difference especially on bumpy/undulating tracks (Oulton is my local), hence why I was nervous to start swapping springs on the MPS dampers for far stiffer springs (which was my original plan).

Either way happy with what I’ve ended up with and they didn’t break the bank… They are not KW Clubsport, Ohlins TTX or Nitron R3 money put it that way…

[kart driver]

Originally Posted by M Fifty

Those are the Clubsports - a step up from the V3.

Got it.

Are the KW Clubsport the best choise?
Given my criteria above

[Juliana19]

Originally Posted by kart driver

What is the difference between these 3 options?

1) Ohlins R&T
2) KW V3 or M Perfomance
3) KW Clubsport


Do I understand it correctly, that KW Clubsport are better than Ohlins R&T for track use?

Is KW Clubsport good for road use? Or are they significantly less comfortable in comparison to KW V3 / MPerfomance? Or it is not the case?


I am pretty happy with my MPerf on my M2C, but I am considering to buy coilovers as well for my M2CS and just hesitating which way to go.

I was in a similar situation to you, I wanted some form of compliance on the road but also an improvement on track. I think if money was no object Ohlins TTX or Nitron R3 are the best Coilovers system got track use.

Have some experience with KW Clubsports on an e92 and they are a good set up but primarily aimed at track use. Depending on budget Be worth looking at Nitron R1s and also recommend speaking to Omnium about retail prices for a custom Ohlins set up as in my experience it’s a good compromise between R&T which is largely focussed on mostly road use and track. Plenty of options out there.

[kart driver]

Originally Posted by Juliana19

I was in a similar situation to you, I wanted some form of compliance on the road but also an improvement on track. I think if money was no object Ohlins TTX or Nitron R3 are the best Coilovers system got track use.

Have some experience with KW Clubsports on an e92 and they are a good set up but primarily aimed at track use. Depending on budget Be worth looking at Nitron R1s and also recommend speaking to Omnium about retail prices for a custom Ohlins set up as in my experience it’s a good compromise between R&T which is largely focussed on mostly road use and track. Plenty of options out there.

Just an update. Spoke to the guy, who has a shop for servicing road legal and racing cars at Nurburgring. His answer is as follows:

- KW is rubbish given that they do for the past several years
- Nitron is better but far from being great
- Ohlins is the best choice. Best perfomance, top quality.


Ohlins R&T: way way superior to KW V3. Price: around 4000 euro
Ohlins TTX: the best option money can buy. Price: around 8000 euro.

[x233]

Originally Posted by kart driver

Just an update. Spoke to the guy, who has a shop for servicing road legal and racing cars at Nurburgring. His answer is as follows:

- KW is rubbish given that they do for the past several years
- Nitron is better but far from being great
- Ohlins is the best choice. Best perfomance, top quality.


Ohlins R&T: way way superior to KW V3. Price: around 4000 euro
Ohlins TTX: the best option money can buy. Price: around 8000 euro.

Got to love these black and white opinions of some car mechanics ))) Must be a universal thing.

On a more serious note, some of the hardcore Porsches and BMWs came fitted with KW Clubsport and/or Ohlins TTX. Not sure if anyone called them crap.

There are options out there. Quite a few variables when leaning toward a certain option.

[Juliana19]

Ohlins R&T off the shelf are much cheaper than 4000 euros. If you can afford it Ohlins TTX supposed to be amazing.

[Billy_BMW]

OP, I’m glad you found a suitable coil over for your needs.

I think some people have been a little harsh in their comments about the benefits of a custom Ohlins strut being better than the MPS suspension; the latter while being good for some circumstances, doesn’t excel in daily road manners, or give ultimate control at the track as the springs are too soft.

I’m not familiar with Omnium Racing, but I did see someone wearing one of their fleeces in one of the recent videos for Gordon Murray’s new supercar. If you’re a consultant to an OEM manufacturer, that carries significant weight in my book.

[Juliana19]

Originally Posted by Billy_BMW

OP, I’m glad you found a suitable coil over for your needs.

I think some people have been a little harsh in their comments about the benefits of a custom Ohlins strut being better than the MPS suspension; the latter while being good for some circumstances, doesn’t excel in daily road manners, or give ultimate control at the track as the springs are too soft.

I’m not familiar with Omnium Racing, but I did see someone wearing one of their fleeces in one of the recent videos for Gordon Murray’s new supercar. If you’re a consultant to an OEM manufacturer, that carries significant weight in my book.

Agree re comment on MPS and is what I was trying to say from the outset. Just didn't seem to resonate with some.

Good spot! The chap who runs Omnium Racing is a senior engineer on the Gordon Murray T50 Project so safe to say he knows a thing or two!

[Billy_BMW]

[nando_514]

Originally Posted by Juliana19

I hope you aren't missing some of the irony of your signature re paid consultations suspension settings with this...

I don't have a horse in this race, but if you've never had a conversation with, or been exposed to the sheer breadth of what that man knows, then you are missing out... There's a reason he charges for his time and effort. I'll simply say this-- I'd trust someone that asks the right questions, before I trust the one that has the 'all the answers'

It's much more than turning knobs and spewing our arbitrary spring rates. People would much rather be sold a lie, under the illusion of choice, than to be shown a solution with objective proof behind it. Damper dynos will only shed light on a portion of the whole story.. Just know there's a real method to his madness, and I hope to learn more from Farkle in the future

[Juliana19]

Originally Posted by nando_514

I don't have a horse in this race, but if you've never had a conversation with, or been exposed to the sheer breadth of what that man knows, then you are missing out... There's a reason he charges for his time and effort. I'll simply say this-- I'd trust someone that asks the right questions, before I trust the one that has the 'all the answers'

It's much more than turning knobs and spewing our arbitrary spring rates. People would much rather be sold a lie, under the illusion of choice, than to be shown a solution with objective proof behind it. Damper dynos will only shed light on a portion of the whole story.. Just know there's a real method to his madness, and I hope to learn more from Farkle in the future

If you read my post I never question his ability merely pointing out he wants others to disclose their product details for free on an internet forum with a signature which says which says don't ask me for info without first paying me...

[FaRKle!]

Originally Posted by Juliana19

If you read my post I never question his ability merely pointing out he wants others to disclose their product details for free on an internet forum with a signature which says which says don't ask me for info without first paying me...

Actually it says please don't "PM" me because otherwise I'm inundated with requests for free private consultations. You should really see all the technical info I've posted in the open for the F-chassis that gives looks into things that nobody else will give you for free...

[Juliana19]

Originally Posted by FaRKle!

To some people: "Hey we tuned it on xxx racetrack and are experts! Just give us your money and trust us!" is enough to get them to buy.

Other people require higher standards of proof and actual technical details.

My car was the development car and yes it is now faster on a race track. Spring rates would be meaningless for rears anyway as different suspension config (being a proper traditional coilover). I will get you front spring rates if that would help?

It's great having lots of technical data but in reality we drive cars on the track not a spreadsheet and the car is objectively quicker (measured via laptimes from different drivers), having done 18 trackdays this year (so far) I'd say I am suitably qualified to have an opinion without having access or understanding to low level detail of damper dynos etc.

If you give Omnium Racing a follow on insta he has done some videos on the philosophy and technical details of building custom Ohlins kits which may help.