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      10-18-2019, 05:58 AM   #89
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What is impressive is a classic 25 year old timeless design, naturally aspirated, Manual coupe, with a mere 240HP did it in 3:11.

+ Fun factor

https://www.bmwblog.com/2019/10/15/c...lightning-lap/
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      10-18-2019, 07:47 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IB M View Post
What is impressive is a classic 25 year old timeless design, naturally aspirated, Manual coupe, with a mere 240HP did it in 3:11.

+ Fun factor

https://www.bmwblog.com/2019/10/15/c...lightning-lap/
less weight, good balance and better tires is goodness everywhere ... I'd like to see 326hp euro performance

hope bmw goes back to lighter cars instead of pigs
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      10-18-2019, 11:10 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER View Post
Agreed, now we're on the same page.

And you bring up a good point. Depending on how you drive there is an advantage to higher stagger like you describe. Most people can control understeer a lot easier than oversteer. All you have to do is lift and/or apply a little brake to transfer more weight forward. It can even be faster on the track because it can give you more confidence to get on the throttle harder and stay on the throttle. If you turn in just a bit early and get on the gas sooner you can maximize a setup with more stagger on track without feeling the understeer.

I like oversteer, but it can be nerve wracking and typically not the fastest around the track.
In my opinion M2 with the factory stagger has the perfect balance for how I drive. I like braking very late and diving into the corners late and hard, and manage slip with throttle and steering. I was doing hot laps at Nurburgring over the summer and lost grip mid corner in Hatzenbach series of corners. But thanks to the balance both front and rear let go simultaneously, and the car slid out towards the outside of the track. I did nothing, kept all my inputs constant. Fraction of the second later I felt the grip come back and I added a bit more steering to get back on the racing line. I thought this was very telling about a balanced nature of the car.

I tracked a heavily modified 2014 Mustang GT before this, and that car was very tail happy. It helped me sharpen my senses to recognize and control oversteer to a point of near pre-cognition. I had full suspension so there was no understeer (unless I did something stupid), and with R comp tires it became very snappy. Huge grip, and then instantly no grip. The M2 is much more approachable and transitions slower. I find myself having to slow down my responses because the car has such a balanced and progressive nature.

But we all drive different and enjoy different characteristics of the car. Glad you found your perfect setup Keep tracking it, it's quite rewarding. And driver mod is the best mod money can buy!
You have explained very well exactly how I perceive my M2C's handling characteristics. The day that I need new tires is going to be a tough decision. I don't want to upset the cars balance at the limit. I could definitely use more traction but I don't want to mess up the balance. In the canyons I drive at the edge of breakaway which is so predictable with my car. MPS4S, MPS4S M4 size, stock, M4 size stock...decisions. Thoughts?
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      10-18-2019, 12:51 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by AlpsRider View Post
You have explained very well exactly how I perceive my M2C's handling characteristics. The day that I need new tires is going to be a tough decision. I don't want to upset the cars balance at the limit. I could definitely use more traction but I don't want to mess up the balance. In the canyons I drive at the edge of breakaway which is so predictable with my car. MPS4S, MPS4S M4 size, stock, M4 size stock...decisions. Thoughts?
Oh man, is this a loaded question?! Also very subjective, but here is what I can tell you:

1) Keeping the factory stagger will help preserve that balanced feeling you enjoy, but as you guessed there is more to this

2) Rubber compound. Staying with Michelin will likely be the easiest way to maintain similar feel at the limits, because of the blend of the chemicals. Each tire makes use a more or less proprietary blend of rubber which behaves better/worse in different temperatures and in presence of H20. But if you like a feel of a particular blend chances are you will also enjoy the feel of their next level of aggressiveness.

3) Wider tires genrally provide more grip. But there is a whole lot more toconsider here too. Even if you go from 255 MPSS to a 275 MPSS the breakaway behavior of the 275 will be more abrupt than 255. Because Physics. Very very (overly) simply put because as you increase grip you also increase cornering forces. If you increase Force without changing anything else you also increase acceleration. Meaning gripper tire lets go more abruptly!

4) And perhaps more important. TEMPERATURE of tire!
Most people have very little understanding of how important this factor is. Take a racing slick at 90F and compare it to MPSS of fame dimensions at 170F, and very likely MPSS will have more grip in this scenario.

This is VERY important. A lot of people want more grip, but don't realize that even during spirited runs they never enter the envelope of optimal tire grip temperature off track. 130F is well below max grip of even a street tire. So pay attention to your pressures AND temperatures. You could have the best tire but if you don't operate in it's sweet spot of pressure and temperature it will perform poorly. Most people would be surprised at how grippy MPSS can be at proper temperature.

5) Pressures. Some tires like having no more than 33psi. Some are happy at 40psi. There are trends to tire type, and +/- 3PSI for different manufactures. So research and pay attention.

So if you like Canyon carving but not track days, and you live in some elevation my recommendation would be keep stock size but get MPS4 or one size up (255/275 MAX) but be ready for more abrupt breakaway. Again, not huge difference but still. Little things add up.

6) then there is suspension geometry, camber, caster, toe ... but no. We keep this simple.

Loaded topic but I hope this helps you consider most important variables.
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      10-18-2019, 01:27 PM   #93
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Thanks! I have experimented with tire pressure. I generally achieve 115 degrees F in the twisties depending on outside temperature. I have pretty much decided to go with MPS4S. It will be interesting to see if they come out with * ratings for that tire. They've already come out with Mercedes rated tires. I wonder if those ratings even matter.
Thanks again for your well thought out informative posts.
I guess I'll stop hijacking the thread now 😂.
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      10-18-2019, 02:06 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER View Post
Oh man, is this a loaded question?! Also very subjective, but here is what I can tell you:

1) Keeping the factory stagger will help preserve that balanced feeling you enjoy, but as you guessed there is more to this

2) Rubber compound. Staying with Michelin will likely be the easiest way to maintain similar feel at the limits, because of the blend of the chemicals. Each tire makes use a more or less proprietary blend of rubber which behaves better/worse in different temperatures and in presence of H20. But if you like a feel of a particular blend chances are you will also enjoy the feel of their next level of aggressiveness.

3) Wider tires genrally provide more grip. But there is a whole lot more toconsider here too. Even if you go from 255 MPSS to a 275 MPSS the breakaway behavior of the 275 will be more abrupt than 255. Because Physics. Very very (overly) simply put because as you increase grip you also increase cornering forces. If you increase Force without changing anything else you also increase acceleration. Meaning gripper tire lets go more abruptly!

4) And perhaps more important. TEMPERATURE of tire!
Most people have very little understanding of how important this factor is. Take a racing slick at 90F and compare it to MPSS of fame dimensions at 170F, and very likely MPSS will have more grip in this scenario.

This is VERY important. A lot of people want more grip, but don't realize that even during spirited runs they never enter the envelope of optimal tire grip temperature off track. 130F is well below max grip of even a street tire. So pay attention to your pressures AND temperatures. You could have the best tire but if you don't operate in it's sweet spot of pressure and temperature it will perform poorly. Most people would be surprised at how grippy MPSS can be at proper temperature.

5) Pressures. Some tires like having no more than 33psi. Some are happy at 40psi. There are trends to tire type, and +/- 3PSI for different manufactures. So research and pay attention.

So if you like Canyon carving but not track days, and you live in some elevation my recommendation would be keep stock size but get MPS4 or one size up (255/275 MAX) but be ready for more abrupt breakaway. Again, not huge difference but still. Little things add up.

6) then there is suspension geometry, camber, caster, toe ... but no. We keep this simple.

Loaded topic but I hope this helps you consider most important variables.
I thought it may be better to stick to the MPSS tire that was specifically made for our car versus a general MPS4S?

Also, do you find the tire temp gauge BMW offers through I-drive reliable? I usually get my tires into the 120-125F range...surprised to hear they can go up to 170F.
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      10-18-2019, 02:44 PM   #95
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MPSS start loosing grip around 190F. And this is what most people miss. Track temps are WAY above street temps. But this is exactly my point! MPSS doesn't start gripping at the max till about 140-150F. 170F is the sweet spot at the track, along with ~34-36PSI in my opinion. The problem when you're pushing on track is keeping them in the temp and pressure window.

And MPSS are almost identical for M2 and GT350. The star spec comes down to homologoation testing, and manufacturers like to make a big deal about the 0.1% compound or pattern change to meet some very specific requirements they have. But don’t be fooled. MPSS is still MPSS regardless on MBO or BMW star rating.

The iDrive temps come directly from tire pressure sensors. Those are probably +/- 5F but still. Close enough.

And to keep things consistent, you’re right. Keeping stock spec tires will result in most repeatable experience. Since Apls was asking for a bit more grip I gave the recommendation I did.

Last edited by 5.M0NSTER; 10-18-2019 at 03:18 PM..
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      10-19-2019, 01:09 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER View Post
MPSS start loosing grip around 190F. And this is what most people miss. Track temps are WAY above street temps. But this is exactly my point! MPSS doesn't start gripping at the max till about 140-150F. 170F is the sweet spot at the track, along with ~34-36PSI in my opinion. The problem when you're pushing on track is keeping them in the temp and pressure window.

And MPSS are almost identical for M2 and GT350. The star spec comes down to homologoation testing, and manufacturers like to make a big deal about the 0.1% compound or pattern change to meet some very specific requirements they have. But don’t be fooled. MPSS is still MPSS regardless on MBO or BMW star rating.

The iDrive temps come directly from tire pressure sensors. Those are probably +/- 5F but still. Close enough.

And to keep things consistent, you’re right. Keeping stock spec tires will result in most repeatable experience. Since Apls was asking for a bit more grip I gave the recommendation I did.
Thanks for all that! Now I will have to debate for down the road between what the car was tuned for (MPSS) or for a bit more grip (MPS4S)...
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      10-19-2019, 09:31 PM   #97
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[QUOTE=5.M0NSTER;25362823
And MPSS are almost identical for M2 and GT350.
[/QUOTE]

Some great info

Just wanted to mention a couple of things in the case of the GT350

The MPSS for the GT350 start with a bit less tread depth than in most other sizes

7.5/32" F and 8/32" R for the GT350 versus 10/32" F and R for the M2C

Also worth mentioning is that beginning with the 2019 model year, GT350s come with MPSC2s from the factory
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      10-20-2019, 04:48 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by VTBoss302 View Post
Some great info

Just wanted to mention a couple of things in the case of the GT350

The MPSS for the GT350 start with a bit less tread depth than in most other sizes

7.5/32" F and 8/32" R for the GT350 versus 10/32" F and R for the M2C

Also worth mentioning is that beginning with the 2019 model year, GT350s come with MPSC2s from the factory
Thanks for the info! Good stuff and makes sense. GT350 is marketed with a heavy track focus. On track less thread depth results in less thread flex and more thread stability. This results in quicker response and more planted feel. This is why tire manufacturers for semi-slick tires often recommend shaving the tires for track use.

This effect also provides better feedback to the driver ... if the electric power steering unit has the ability to provide it to the wheel.
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      10-20-2019, 10:00 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER View Post
MPSS start loosing grip around 190F. And this is what most people miss. Track temps are WAY above street temps. But this is exactly my point! MPSS doesn't start gripping at the max till about 140-150F. 170F is the sweet spot at the track, along with ~34-36PSI in my opinion. The problem when you're pushing on track is keeping them in the temp and pressure window.

And MPSS are almost identical for M2 and GT350. The star spec comes down to homologoation testing, and manufacturers like to make a big deal about the 0.1% compound or pattern change to meet some very specific requirements they have. But don’t be fooled. MPSS is still MPSS regardless on MBO or BMW star rating.

The iDrive temps come directly from tire pressure sensors. Those are probably +/- 5F but still. Close enough.

And to keep things consistent, you’re right. Keeping stock spec tires will result in most repeatable experience. Since Apls was asking for a bit more grip I gave the recommendation I did.
Thank you for the very informative posts.

What would be your advice for better wet grip, in stock F80 ZCP sizes (265/285)? MPSS * or MPS4S? I'll be due to replace my original set in the spring, and these act as my wet setup for the track as well.
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      10-20-2019, 11:08 AM   #100
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I've read reviews that state the MPS4s is considerably better in the wet.
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      10-20-2019, 01:13 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by adc View Post
Thank you for the very informative posts.

What would be your advice for better wet grip, in stock F80 ZCP sizes (265/285)? MPSS * or MPS4S? I'll be due to replace my original set in the spring, and these act as my wet setup for the track as well.
My pleasure. Best part of the communities is sharing knowledge. P.S. Sweet photo on the carousel.

So are you trying to maximize wet traction on the street while keeping the same tire for dry track days?

If so one thing is clear, semi-slick or extreme performance summer tires with 180-200 thread wear rating is not for you. Those are better for dry track, but are atrocious in the rain.

I think for this use case it's best stick to Max Performance Summers. I don't have first hand experience in the wet with MPS4, but i think you can trust Tire Rack and car magazine reviews. They typically run instrumented tests in addition to subjective feel reviews.

I have very good experince with MPSS in the wet and the dry as well as some other times. I would say Bridgestone Potenza S04 Pole Position is a little better in the Wet. But not as good in the dry. MPSS is just very good all around, and MPS4 is the next step in the evolution.
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      10-20-2019, 10:19 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER View Post
My pleasure. Best part of the communities is sharing knowledge. P.S. Sweet photo on the carousel.

So are you trying to maximize wet traction on the street while keeping the same tire for dry track days?

If so one thing is clear, semi-slick or extreme performance summer tires with 180-200 thread wear rating is not for you. Those are better for dry track, but are atrocious in the rain.

I think for this use case it's best stick to Max Performance Summers. I don't have first hand experience in the wet with MPS4, but i think you can trust Tire Rack and car magazine reviews. They typically run instrumented tests in addition to subjective feel reviews.

I have very good experince with MPSS in the wet and the dry as well as some other times. I would say Bridgestone Potenza S04 Pole Position is a little better in the Wet. But not as good in the dry. MPSS is just very good all around, and MPS4 is the next step in the evolution.
Ah, quite the opposite. I currently run Nitto NT01 for the dry track, and put on the stock MPSS for wet track. And of course, drive the MPSS on the street.

But still I gather from your post that the MPS4S will be better still in the wet. I just love driving on the stock Michelins on the track in the wet, blowing by GT3's and other serious exotica running Cups, slicks or similar, which are atrocious in the rain.
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