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      12-11-2019, 07:10 PM   #67
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Subaru s209 if you can get for sticker at $65k.
Only 209 in the world made.

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      12-11-2019, 07:38 PM   #68
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Subaru s209 if you can get for sticker at $65k.
Only 209 in the world made.
I don't think that one will hold value. If it had been the first gen, back when they actually sold and were competitive, they'd be investment grade. But the current STI is a horrible value and has the same power and motor as a 2004. I'd be a little surprised if Subaru sold more than 209 regular STI's a year.
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      12-12-2019, 07:09 AM   #69
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....imho, if 5K - 10K a year impacts your annual finances, then you should not be buying an occasional driver for 150K, that seems insane.

And while im not the practical type, your wife may be right and you should do the financial comparison of putting down the additional 150K on the house vs the car and see what it looks like. If the interest costs and duration savings on the house significantly exceed the car enjoyment and depreciation, then u have a real decision to make.....

I've been practical for too long, time to start living a little more in the moment, I'd much rather be car rich and house poor than the reverse
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      12-12-2019, 08:06 AM   #70
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I've been practical for too long, time to start living a little more in the moment, I'd much rather be car rich and house poor than the reverse
I agree. And for those of you that are actually making money on your house, you obviously don't live in Illinois. Our property values have dropped by 30 to 50% since the mid-2000s and they've never recovered. So we've lost our more money on our houses than any of the cars we own! And the cars are far more enjoyable and engaging.
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      12-12-2019, 12:37 PM   #71
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I agree. And for those of you that are actually making money on your house, you obviously don't live in Illinois. Our property values have dropped by 30 to 50% since the mid-2000s and they've never recovered. So we've lost our more money on our houses than any of the cars we own! And the cars are far more enjoyable and engaging.
Sorry to hear that. We have been lucky as our property values have done pretty much the opposite of what you described.

I'm in my mid 40's, and this year we plan to buy/build our last house. Once we get that out of the way....I'm going to start seriously looking at some "fun" car options.

Just need more garage space!
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      12-12-2019, 12:55 PM   #72
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I agree. And for those of you that are actually making money on your house, you obviously don't live in Illinois. Our property values have dropped by 30 to 50% since the mid-2000s and they've never recovered. So we've lost our more money on our houses than any of the cars we own! And the cars are far more enjoyable and engaging.
I just read a "10 most..." click-bait-y article on which states people are moving out of in the highest numbers. Illinois is at the top of the list, unfortunately for you. Both my GF's sons live in Chicago and the prices of housing seem reasonable for a city so large, but I have no idea what the trend has been. The city of Chicago and the State are a perpetual economic cluster-fuck, I know that much. I'm going to resist climbing on my soapbox about what party has run both since forever.
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      12-12-2019, 01:19 PM   #73
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I think if you can buy something you really love and don't lose a ton on it when it's time to move on then you're doing well, if you want to make money there are lots of other places to put it.
At a certain point in the car's value cycle, you hit a point where you have to pick between driving it, and having it retain value. Collectible cars are mileage-sensitive, some more than others; among the collectible Italian exotics they cost $2-3 per mile in lost value, in addition to all the other costs you incur while owning one. If something non-trivial breaks when you're driving it? Well, there goes 3-4 years' worth of "interest" from your investment. And then there's insurance, and...you get the idea.

My advice? Own cars you love to drive and can afford to own. If you get lucky and one of them becomes highly sought-after and you can take advantage of that, that's a bonus. I happen to have lucked-out a couple times, but most cars I've owned have been grin-generating money pits.

I like to think of things in terms of dollars per hour, maybe since that's how I get paid. If I pay $1 for a can opener and use it once for thirty seconds, that's $120/hour. If I buy a car for $100K and drive it 500 hours in 5 years and sell it for $80K, that's $40/hour. A better value.

Which tells me that I NEED TO TRADE ALL MY CAN OPENERS FOR CARS!!!
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      12-12-2019, 01:46 PM   #74
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At a certain point in the car's value cycle, you hit a point where you have to pick between driving it, and having it retain value. Collectible cars are mileage-sensitive, some more than others; among the collectible Italian exotics they cost $2-3 per mile in lost value, in addition to all the other costs you incur while owning one. If something non-trivial breaks when you're driving it? Well, there goes 3-4 years' worth of "interest" from your investment. And then there's insurance, and...you get the idea.

My advice? Own cars you love to drive and can afford to own. If you get lucky and one of them becomes highly sought-after and you can take advantage of that, that's a bonus. I happen to have lucked-out a couple times, but most cars I've owned have been grin-generating money pits.

I like to think of things in terms of dollars per hour, maybe since that's how I get paid. If I pay $1 for a can opener and use it once for thirty seconds, that's $120/hour. If I buy a car for $100K and drive it 500 hours in 5 years and sell it for $80K, that's $40/hour. A better value.

Which tells me that I NEED TO TRADE ALL MY CAN OPENERS FOR CARS!!!
You make excellent points. I have been lucky with my "toys" and sold a few for more than I paid, I've owned a few others that have maintained their value and a few others have lost value. But your points on the maintenance are valid and I suspect that much of this conversation hasn't factored in insurance, fuel, maintenance and repairs. My current toy, a 993 has gone up in value since I bought it, I've spent $2K or so on insurance and probably $3+ K in maintenance. I just ordered a set of RH Techart rims for $2K and just installed a Becker refurbished and updated stereo for $1000......so have I made money? Well if I sold it and didn't factor in anything other than purchase and sale price then maybe.
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      12-12-2019, 01:55 PM   #75
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baege, what is your summary of the input received so far?
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      12-12-2019, 04:10 PM   #76
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baege, what is your summary of the input received so far?
Simple...he is gonna spend 150k-200k on a toy, finances be damned!!!!.....and worry about any 5k maintenance costs!!!!!! :lmao:
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      12-12-2019, 04:30 PM   #77
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You make excellent points. I have been lucky with my "toys" and sold a few for more than I paid, I've owned a few others that have maintained their value and a few others have lost value. But your points on the maintenance are valid and I suspect that much of this conversation hasn't factored in insurance, fuel, maintenance and repairs. My current toy, a 993 has gone up in value since I bought it, I've spent $2K or so on insurance and probably $3+ K in maintenance. I just ordered a set of RH Techart rims for $2K and just installed a Becker refurbished and updated stereo for $1000......so have I made money? Well if I sold it and didn't factor in anything other than purchase and sale price then maybe.
My greatest fear is that my heirs will sell my stuff for what I told my ex-wives I paid for it.
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      12-12-2019, 07:33 PM   #78
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My greatest fear is that my heirs will sell my stuff for what I told my ex-wives I paid for it.
I hava a couple of ex-wives. My kids know pretty well what the good stuff is so I think they'll either hang onto it or sell it for a reasonable amount....doesnt' really matter because I'll be dead then.
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      12-13-2019, 01:12 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by pennsiveguy View Post
At a certain point in the car's value cycle, you hit a point where you have to pick between driving it, and having it retain value. Collectible cars are mileage-sensitive, some more than others; among the collectible Italian exotics they cost $2-3 per mile in lost value, in addition to all the other costs you incur while owning one. If something non-trivial breaks when you're driving it? Well, there goes 3-4 years' worth of "interest" from your investment. And then there's insurance, and...you get the idea.

My advice? Own cars you love to drive and can afford to own. If you get lucky and one of them becomes highly sought-after and you can take advantage of that, that's a bonus. I happen to have lucked-out a couple times, but most cars I've owned have been grin-generating money pits.

I like to think of things in terms of dollars per hour, maybe since that's how I get paid. If I pay $1 for a can opener and use it once for thirty seconds, that's $120/hour. If I buy a car for $100K and drive it 500 hours in 5 years and sell it for $80K, that's $40/hour. A better value.

Which tells me that I NEED TO TRADE ALL MY CAN OPENERS FOR CARS!!!
Staying true to the thread, I take it you've made out all right with your '06 GT?
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      12-13-2019, 01:55 PM   #80
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Staying true to the thread, I take it you've made out all right with your '06 GT?
I guess so. Pure luck; I never imagined it as an investment. But it doesn't matter how much it's worth if it's not for sale. I'd rather have the car, for now, than the money.
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      12-13-2019, 04:13 PM   #81
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i don't get the house equity thing...

sure it goes up for you, but if you're planning on staying in the same area and keep the same job, then houses have gone up for everyone. So its a wash. And the market cycles: it may go up for a few years and then it'll come down. I don't know too many people who said 'oh look the equity is up, lets sell and move somewhere else and use that profit for a supercar!
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      12-13-2019, 11:27 PM   #82
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i don't get the house equity thing...

sure it goes up for you, but if you're planning on staying in the same area and keep the same job, then houses have gone up for everyone. So its a wash. And the market cycles: it may go up for a few years and then it'll come down. I don't know too many people who said 'oh look the equity is up, lets sell and move somewhere else and use that profit for a supercar!
I think it's more of a "better to have the equity" than "not have the equity" scenario.

Let's say your rent is a moderate $3k. After 10 years, you'll have spent $360,000 with nothing to show for it. At least with the equity, if and when it's time to move you can at least roll that over.

If you're moving somewhere cheaper (i.e. I sell my house for $2M in San Francisco and retire in Arizona and buy a place for $800k) I pocket that $1.2M. If I'm just renting forever then I'll have $0 to show for it and STILL have to pay rent.

If you're savvy, maybe you do move every few years if opportunity strikes. I made a nice return on a few condos because I was opportunistic. To me it's less about the equity, more about leveraging the return on your downpayment when opportunity presents itself. Then roll that over into something bigger, rinse and repeat. Easy way to snowball your money but YMMV.
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      12-14-2019, 12:34 AM   #83
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i don't get the house equity thing...

sure it goes up for you, but if you're planning on staying in the same area and keep the same job, then houses have gone up for everyone. So its a wash. And the market cycles: it may go up for a few years and then it'll come down. I don't know too many people who said 'oh look the equity is up, lets sell and move somewhere else and use that profit for a supercar!
Not true in Illinois!!! I've lost more money on my home than you can imagine! Let's just say I could have owned over 50 M3s in the last 10 years for the same amount of money I've lost on just one home. And what an F'ing awesome time I would have had owing all those cars! But I do have an awesome fleet now and have no complaints.

So that home appreciation thing is very geographic.

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      12-14-2019, 12:38 AM   #84
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I just read a "10 most..." click-bait-y article on which states people are moving out of in the highest numbers. Illinois is at the top of the list, unfortunately for you. Both my GF's sons live in Chicago and the prices of housing seem reasonable for a city so large, but I have no idea what the trend has been. The city of Chicago and the State are a perpetual economic cluster-fuck, I know that much. I'm going to resist climbing on my soapbox about what party has run both since forever.
Certain parts of downtown Chicago have held up well. The suburbs have been a disaster. Many 4 million dollar homes are selling in the 1 million range now. Many 1 million dollar homes are selling in the 600k range. 300k homes are somewhat stable, but not appreciating.

The politics here suck. Same democrat controlling Springfield for 3 decades. He's as corrupt as the worst people in the US. People with no jobs, education, or money keep voting for him so the rest of us pay the price. Not sustainable (as is blatantly obvious). But once you have your roots set somewhere, it is very hard to relocate.
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      12-14-2019, 06:20 AM   #85
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I think it's more of a "better to have the equity" than "not have the equity" scenario.

Let's say your rent is a moderate $3k. After 10 years, you'll have spent $360,000 with nothing to show for it. At least with the equity, if and when it's time to move you can at least roll that over.

If you're moving somewhere cheaper (i.e. I sell my house for $2M in San Francisco and retire in Arizona and buy a place for $800k) I pocket that $1.2M. If I'm just renting forever then I'll have $0 to show for it and STILL have to pay rent.

If you're savvy, maybe you do move every few years if opportunity strikes. I made a nice return on a few condos because I was opportunistic. To me it's less about the equity, more about leveraging the return on your downpayment when opportunity presents itself. Then roll that over into something bigger, rinse and repeat. Easy way to snowball your money but YMMV.
my scenario is more like this

we rent now
we are looking to buy, but I don't see that it makes a whole lot of sense to have that downpayment 150k bigger as opposed putting that 150K into a car I will love
my thinking is put the minimum downpayment required to avoid mortgage insurance, 20% in my province, and then enjoy life more with a sweet keeper car
we have no kids and it doesn't look like we'll have any so what's the point of building up all this equity and having all my money sunk in a house

It's become clear to me that I will be happier with a 800k house and 200k in cars then with a 950k house and 50k in cars
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      12-14-2019, 12:09 PM   #86
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      12-14-2019, 12:30 PM   #87
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@Flacht3 Using the scenario you gave above, can you please outline the "don't rent" scenario, with the primary dwelling as the only property in the discussion? In other words, for the average person that does not invest in real estate, beyond the primary dwelling.

What would be the monthly outlay in the scenario you presented in Post #82?
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      12-14-2019, 12:54 PM   #88
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@Flacht3 Using the scenario you gave above, can you please outline the "don't rent" scenario, with the primary dwelling as the only property in the discussion? In other words, for the average person that does not invest in real estate, beyond the primary dwelling.

What would be the monthly outlay in the scenario you presented in Post #82?
Not sure if this answers your specific question, but I'm not opposed to renting. It's a helluva lot easier most times. If renting is substantially cheaper than your monthly ownership costs then keep renting. But I live in a market where my rent (for what I want) would cost me $4500+ a month...so If I rent for 3 years I'm out $160k. That type of blow hurts, and I'd rather that go towards something than nothing.

But the other reason (for me) I strongly prefer owning is because of how I can leverage a down-payment for larger returns, thanks to the fact that even though the bank is covering 80% of ownership your gains are on your full 100%. This is basic stuff but:

Let's say I put 20% down on a $800k condo ($160k down). 2 years later I sell it for $1M. I just made $200k profit on a $160k investment. I'm not looking at it from a "I made $200k profit on $800k" but rather "I made $200k profit on $160k).

Then I can take that net return ($360k) and roll that into a more expensive property (20% down on a $1.8M property). Let's say that $1.8M property appreciates an average of 7% a year, and 3 years in I sell. $2.2M. I just made $400k off that $360k. I now theoretically have a 20% down payment for a $3.8M home.

The above is wildly optimistic but in the bull market we've had for the last 10+ years it was the norm in a few housing markets. I'm not suggesting the average person can expect this today, but if you're always renting then you'll never be in it. And yes, if you're always renting you can't ever lose your investment either but results tend to favor net gains as long as you can tolerate some occasional pain.

I'm also a gluten for punishment and willing to move every 2-3 years when opportunity arises. I don't have kids, and am lucky to have a significant other than is willing to abide.

But my primary reason for owning is my first statement. Over X years in an expensive housing market, you're essentially throwing $XXX,XXX away as a sunk cost. I think about it this way, 4-5 years of renting for me would be the equivalent of throwing a Huracan in the garbage.

I am by no means an expert or trying to preachy. Just answering your question and outlining why I make the choices I make.
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